Hi, I'm about 200 cards into core2k, but right now my cards are set up as E-J;

Code:

Question                       |                         Answer
-------------------------------+-------------------------------
[vocab meaning]                |                [vocab meaning]
[sentence cloze w/ furigana]   |                [vocab reading]
[image]                        |         [sentence w/ furigana]
                               |             [sentence meaning]
                               |                        [image]
                               |     [vocab and sentence audio]

So my question is (and I know this has been asked/debated several times before, but reading the past threads just got me more confused):

* Is this a wise method, and if so up to what point?
* Is it better to just go J-E (kanji recognition) or J-J (kana-kanji) from the start?
* And does recognition really eventually facilitate production, given that seems to be the complete opposite of advice given to people doing RTK?

recognition first, production second.

Once you have recognition done, you can start reading. Plus recognition is easy and faster.

That's a good point. So you mean complete core2k with recognition then with production after, or do x amount with recognition and then move to production?

And by production do you mean E-J or J-J?

For me, personally, I don't feel like I'm learning the word if I don't study it from English->Japanese. I want to be able to think of a word and be able to write it down from memory. It's been recommended in Nukemarine's beginners thread to do E->J for at least the first 2000 words. I've just completed 4000 words doing it in that manner. I plan to complete the Core 6000 set this way. I use iKnow! so its E->J by default (actually, iKnow! does it 3 ways, E->J, J->E, Listening) but it almost always hits you with E-J first). It takes a lot more time and effort, but I feel more comfortable studying words in this manner. Others can study with just recognition so it varies between individuals.

My gf and I are debating this, because she's studying Italian as E->I. I'm studying Japanese mainly as J->E, and using other techniques for production. I don't think there's one right answer, and am not aware of any research that indicates one way is better than the other.

Hmm. Thanks for the ideas! I think I'll go with recognition for now, see how that fares. I can definitely see how being able to read asap would be beneficial.

There's a bit of conflicting terminology in these posts. Can anyone clarify?

How is J -> E anymore of a "production" than kana -> kanji? In the first scenario you produce the English word for the kanji+readings, and in the 2nd scenario you produce the kanji for the readings.

Also what is the difference between J -> E and E -> J?

Well, I have mine set up as a listening deck, so my case might not apply at all.

Front:
Audio

Back:
Japanese sentence with furigana
English sentence

I discard all the other fields, and I only look at the English if I don't know what the sentence means innately. I also make sure I know what each word and all the grammar points mean. To do this, I suspended all new cards. When I want to learn something in my vocab deck or a particular grammar point, I search Core in Anki and unsuspend whatever I want to learn.

Going from E -> J is very bad early on. It creates bad habits and is complicated with all the different translations the answers could be. The only other viable use of the Core deck, in my opinion, would be as a reading deck.

I'll also add that I'm 2,000 cards in, and I've had great results overall.

ryuudou Wrote:There's a bit of conflicting terminology in these posts. Can anyone clarify?

How is J -> E anymore of a "production" than kana -> kanji? In the first scenario you produce the English word for the kanji+readings, and in the 2nd scenario you produce the kanji for the readings.

Also what is the difference between J -> E and E -> J?

Production: Speaking or writing in Japanese (ie. producing words in Japanese). Doing reviews with English word on front and Japanese word on back (ie. E->J) facilititates this.

Recognition: Reading Japanese (ie. recognizing the Japanese word). Doing reviews with Japanese word on front and English word on back (ie. J->E) facilitates this. Listening to Japanese to considered recognition as well.

Of course, there are many different opinions over which study method is better as well as other methods (you can go from Japanese audio->meaning, etc...). There is also a view that you shouldn't use English at all while studying (use pictures, etc.) to understand the meaning. There is no "right" way and you will read a million opinions on the matter.

PotbellyPig Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:There's a bit of conflicting terminology in these posts. Can anyone clarify?

How is J -> E anymore of a "production" than kana -> kanji? In the first scenario you produce the English word for the kanji+readings, and in the 2nd scenario you produce the kanji for the readings.

Also what is the difference between J -> E and E -> J?

Production: Speaking or writing in Japanese (ie. producing words in Japanese). Doing reviews with English word on front and Japanese word on back (ie. E->J) facilititates this.

Recognition: Reading Japanese (ie. recognizing the Japanese word). Doing reviews with Japanese word on front and English word on back (ie. J->E) facilitates this. Listening to Japanese to considered recognition as well.

Of course, there are many different opinions over which study method is better as well as other methods (you can go from Japanese audio->meaning, etc...). There is also a view that you shouldn't use English at all while studying (use pictures, etc.) to understand the meaning. There is no "right" way and you will read a million opinions on the matter.

Ah thank you very much.

Wouldn't that mean kana - > kanji (with English meaning on the back too) qualifies as both? (reading Japanese and producing Japanese)

Oh, okay. I see what you mean. I have some suggestions, but first, let me explain why I advise against making E -> J cards. It's a crutch, and it adds a step to the production process. I started out with E -> J cards, and what ended up happening is I would have to first think of what I wanted to say in English before I could start to try and say it in Japanese. If you are still a complete beginner and do choose to continue with E -> J, try to phase it out as soon as possible. There may be some merit to using it in the beginning, but in the long run, it actually inhibits natural production. Plus, when you get further along, there are a lot of sentences that just don't translate well into English. Natural production isn't really something you can SRS, at least not in this way, especially if you want to speak as fluently as possible.

Depending on how much time I have, there are a few things I try to do after I answer a card in my Core 6000 listening deck. 1. I try to make similar sentences with the some of the same grammar and/or vocab used in the sentence. This helps make the grammar and vocab stick, and after a while, using those words becomes natural. 2. Another thing I try to do is to respond to whatever the card is saying in sort of mock conversation. Since the cards usually provide little context, it's pretty easy to think up something to ask as a follow up question. Then I try to make something up to answer my own question and carry it on until I decide to move on.

Unrelated to Core 6000, another thing I do is try to express my feelings or describe the things around me in Japanese, but I always try to avoid thinking of what I want to say in English first. When I first started studying Japanese, I self-studied my college's first-year Japanese requirements. I was able to test out and skip to second-year, but when I started taking courses, I noticed that I had a very, very difficult time in the Japanese only environment. I was always able to do the homework, but when it came to having a conversation, I failed at the most basic level. There may not be any one right way to studying Japanese, but that's not to say there are no wrong ways.

prink Wrote:Oh, okay. I see what you mean. I have some suggestions, but first, let me explain why I advise against making E -> J cards. It's a crutch, and it adds a step to the production process. I started out with E -> J cards, and what ended up happening is I would have to first think of what I wanted to say in English before I could start to try and say it in Japanese. If you are still a complete beginner and do choose to continue with E -> J, try to phase it out as soon as possible. There may be some merit to using it in the beginning, but in the long run, it actually inhibits natural production. Plus, when you get further along, there are a lot of sentences that just don't translate well into English. Natural production isn't really something you can SRS, at least not in this way, especially if you want to speak as fluently as possible.

I would agree with this, based on my own experience. There are even basic structures (－ていく and －てくる come to mind) that just don't translate naturally.

When I first started writing on Lang-8, I was attempting to translate from English to Japanese. As a result, I got a lot of feedback about how "English" my constructions were. It's taken me a good bit of practice to get to a point where I can produce basic Japanese using natural Japanese sentence structures. And I'm still working on it.

prink Wrote:Unrelated to Core 6000, another thing I do is try to express my feelings or describe the things around me in Japanese, but I always try to avoid thinking of what I want to say in English first.

I like this practice, as well as icecream's suggested exercise of attempting to talk about something that you've just read in Japanese. I practice talking about the things I read or watch in Japanese, going over my explanation again and again out loud until I feel I can say it more or less naturally, without a lot of awkward pauses. Then I try and convey my observations to one of my Japanese friends or pen pals.

Bottom line, there are a lot of ways to practice production outside of Anki.

Re: does recognition lead to production - I've read a lot about this on this board. Based on my own personal experience, and on what I've read here, I'd say that recognition is necessary but not sufficient for production. Reading, listening, writing and speaking all share a core knowledge base (Japanese grammar and vocabularly), but all are separate skills that need to be practiced in their own right.

ryuudou Wrote:Wouldn't that mean kana - > kanji (with English meaning on the back too) qualifies as both? (reading Japanese and producing Japanese)

I think it counts as production because you're producing kanji and a meaning, whereas you just "read" kana, almost like listening. That's why I call that type of card "dictation", even when it doesn't use audio.

I see why lots of you advise against E-J now, thanks. I think I'm going to do either kana to kanji or reading (or both) based on your responses. And from what I can tell, it's smarter to focus on sentences than individual vocab, right?

I'm setting up a Core deck right now so I've also given this some thought. My middle-term goal is reading ability, so I'm definitely starting out with J -> E. I think associating kanji with vocabulary as soon as possible is important too (even though I haven't finished RTK yet), and if possible I don't want to completely neglect listening either. I came up with this:

- Front has Japanese vocabulary and sentence in kanji, without readings or automatic audio
- If I can't produce the correct vocab reading (i.e. pronounce it) I press the "replay audio" button to hear it
- If I correctly recall the meaning of the word from the reading (guessing based on kanji meanings won't do) I pass the card

This way there is no penalty for not knowing the kanji of a word, but I do force myself to attempt it anyway. I've only been doing this for a few days now so I'll have to see how it works out.