Found another few particularly evil ones. I don't know how people read Japanese at reasonably sized fonts.

横/構
微/徴

At some point, I plan to create some way to practice sight-recognition of pairs like these.

mspertus Wrote:Just ran into these on the study page:

侯/候

Very interesting combo, ha, ha!

mspertus Wrote:Found another few particularly evil ones. I don't know how people read Japanese at reasonably sized fonts.

横/構
微/徴

At some point, I plan to create some way to practice sight-recognition of pairs like these.

Ditto that for me too. Real demons they are!

KANJI Wrote:While I use RTK, I want to make necessary visual discriminations, which only can be done by reference to kanji with similar visual elements. A ready-made list of such candidates would be an enormous help, I believe.

Let me start by saying that I respect everyone's freedom to spend their time any way they want. If you enjoy collecting similar looking kanjis and that makes you feel good, go ahead. However, from the point of view of learning efficiently I think that this approach is not useful.

Understanding the meaning of a kanji is basically a mapping that takes place within your mind from a visual space to a semantic space. This is difficult because in the visual space the kanji patterns are often clustered together and they are difficult to differentiate.

I believe that what the Heisig method does is basically three things: first it introduces an intermediate space, the story space. This spreads out the patterns and declusters them, thus making the separation by meaning easier. Second, it systematizes the mapping to the story space by using the same primitives in every mapping. This adds accuracy to the recognition. Finally, it helps tie the meaning of the kanji to one's personal experience because the stories are hopefully based on each person's inner images and memories.

Compared to this, collecting and comparing very similar visual patterns in order to remember that they are different might be a fun hobby but is not, I believe, an efficient method to learn.

The Japanese of course have books on this topic because they have learnt the kanjis in a different way and do not know about Heisig's method. For them it is always a matter of reviewing the little differences on which they stumble. For the rest of us I think it is best to think of good stories.

Pepe,

Interesting post! You seem to suggest that the way Japanese learn kanji is inefficient. Hmm, Japanese have reached the highest level of literacy in the world; but not yet perfect. Perhaps if they eliminate study of commonly confused kanji, they could reach perfection! Had you considered sending a copy of RTK to the Monkasho (Dept. of Educ.) and your ideas, so the whole population could benefit?

Actually why reduce it to an either-or proposition--RTK or other methods? Isn't that the grossest of errors efficiency wise? But then again, soley by cluching RTK in hand and ignoring the importance of visualization of kanji and other factors, the RTK student can romanticize that they know something the rest of the world doesn't. Inefficient, yes, but the feeling of knowing the "best" way is like an opiate of the mind. It also can give the license to self-appoint yourself as the spokesman for thousands of unsolicited people. As well as giving you instant degrees in the cognitive sciences and expertise about learning. Where can you get this opiate?

For the reasons above I agree with Heisig that the method used by the Japanese to learn the kanji is an inefficient one for foreign adults. See the Note to the 4th Edition.

PepeSeco,
Even though I started (and continued) the posting of the kanji pairs, I basically agree with you. What impressed me the most was how easy the Heisig method made it to avoid confusing visually similar kanji. That being said, it doesn't completely eliminate the need to learn about similar kanji as fluency progresses.

* When reading Japanese, one proceeds from the kanji to the reading. To achieve a reasonable reading speed, one needs to have sight recognition for most kanji and only fall back on the story when the sight recognition is inadequate. (Heisig talks about this progression of familiarity and that his method is a stepping stone to get there, not the ultimate goal). Knowing which kanji are similar helps avoid errors there.

* Reading handwriting or the fiendishly small fonts on web pages requires you to recall which kanji looks like what you're seeing, which also benefits from a handle on similar kanji.

* When writing, one also transitions from writing out story to muscle memory, which I have found often carelessly puts in a similar kanji.

PepeSeco Wrote:For the reasons above I agree with Heisig that the method used by the Japanese to learn the kanji is an inefficient one for foreign adults. See the Note to the 4th Edition.

Pepe,

So what? Again, you treat unsupported opionion as fact. We might as well believe the earth is flat. Considering literacy in any language is a serious matter, especially a writing system as difficult as Japanese, important decision-making requires fact-based, research-based evidence. Instead, you are operating on pure intuition. So am I, but there is a difference. I am not treating RTK as the silver bullet as you are.

Thus you completely distorted my call for a list of commonly confused kanji as, you state, "a fun hobby but is not ... an efficient method to learn." Considering confused kanji is not a method. It is a strategy. If it were a method then I would not be wasting my time on this website.

You wrongly treat my strategy as a "method" and then erroneously put it against another method--RTK--as an either-or propositon. I never said my call was a subsitution for RTK. Furthermore, what makes you an authority to be able to pass judgement on it anyway? (Funny, how you elevate yourself not only as an authority but a spokesman for others as well.)

I doubt you really know how Japanese study and learn kanji. Of course it includes rote-learning, as RTK sometimes does also, but like RTK, Japanese study of kanji includes analytical strategies. Otherwise do you fancy Japanese as robots, non-rational beings? To think that foreigners could not benefit from anything Japanese do is not just short-sighted, it is also ethnocentric.

Ethnocentrism will blind you from the wonders of the world around you, including your fair metropolis Tokyo. Or perhaps you have entrenched yourself in a foreign bunker there only to venture out amidst other foreigners. If that fits, then I suggest you try to make friends with Japanese and experience the culture as it is, not through the distortions of foreign lenses.

Your opinions here are nothing more than opinions. That is fine but you crossed the line when you elevated yourself as not only an authority but as a spokesman for others as well. Your opinions are unfounded, so be more careful about opining, especially when you distort what others have said. (RTK is not perfect; it has gaps like anything else.)

I like RTK; I follow it. But like golf, I will use as many different instruments as need be. This includes considering confused kanji for their visual or graphic differences. RTK does that nearly every page; otherwise RTK would be a random list of characters.

Pepe, Pepe, please be careful over there walking about, for how can you step out without concern for visual differences? Don't walk into any telephone poles!

Quote:Ethnocentrism will blind you from the wonders of the world around you, including your fair metropolis Tokyo. Or perhaps you have entrenched yourself in a foreign bunker there only to venture out amidst other foreigners. If that fits, then I suggest you try to make friends with Japanese and experience the culture as it is, not through the distortions of foreign lenses.

This kind of crap is totally uncalled for.

Kanji, it's quite obvious that you have absolutely no idea how people read and how and why RTK works and apparently have no desire to learn either. Asking for evidence to prove something that is quite apparent to pretty much everyone (hint hint: this is an RTK site, and we are here because it works for us) is kinda strange too.
You are free to follow anything you like, but likewise the people here have every right to note that some of your suggestions are not useful. And this one isn't.
I confuse kanji myself at times (one pair is 度/席), but this happens in the same way I misread English words at times -- i.e. when I am looking at the character too briefly. I doubt any practice looking at this pair in isolation could prevent this from happening next time.
BTW, FYI: educated English-speaking people read English the exact same way the Japanese read Japanese, i.e. by observing the shape of the words, and this process is not really related to phonetics. i.e. we do not raed txet by spkaeing it to oruselevs, ohtewrise tihs prhase whloud be mcuh hrdaer to raed.

As far as I know there are no studies to verify the claimed merits of RTK. We are left with personal anecdotes. That has not stopped me from using it and am generally pleased with it.

As numerous people, however, here and elsewhere have noted, RTK has some gaps. Just one example is the thread on this website that has discussed improving RTK by using Japanese keywords, not to mention others who have talked about substituting keywords in English. Sure you can argue that these people are in left field, but such debates will never be resolved without scientific research on the matter. In the meantime you shouldn't act as though your view is the one correct view.

You make a ridiculous statement when you say,

"Kanji, it's quite obvious that you have absolutely no idea how people read and how and why RTK works and apparently have no desire to learn either."

The name is actually KANJI. True my earlier posts were of someone seeking to relearn
RTK after having used it ten years ago (?) and even having conferred with the author/developer. But I assure all that I am now quite up on it after recovering my old materials and giving them a spin around the block. Laxxy, you have no grounds presently to say what you did.

Now, let's fast forward to this thread. Some of us were happily exchanging info about confused kanji. Then Pepe distorts my call for such info by opining that this is nothing more than a fun hobby. Okay back it up--but you can't. You just want to make trouble.

Pepe's assertion is meritless, but he also made false claims about what I was about here. Laxxy, you yourself make assertions based on sole opinion. For example, "educated English-speaking people read English the exact same way the Japanese read Japanese, i.e. by observing the shape of the words, and this process is not really related to phonetics." Aside from its questionable assumptions, if true, then you just blew your friend Pepe out of the water. If the process is exactly the same as you say, then that's all the more reason to consider native Japanese teaching/learning strategies.

I never said that any of these strategies would substitute RTK, as claimed by Pepe. There was no constructive reason for him to have made his post.

Finally, you state,

"asking for evidence to prove something that is quite apparent to pretty much everyone (hint hint: this is an RTK site, and we are here because it works for us) is kinda strange too."

Yes, in the same way, people once believed the earth was flat and many other myths. You spoke in terms of "educated English people." No truly educated person would say what you did. If educated, then you will or should understand that fact-based evidence (not anecdotal) is what propels our civilization forward, including advancements in teaching/learning methodologies.

If both you and Pepe didn't like that some of us were exchanging info about "demon kanji," --fine, don't read it! A threat to your image of having the "perfect" method? I don't agree it's a threat. And am surprised that that has apparently motivated your comments.

krusher Wrote:

Quote:Ethnocentrism will blind you from the wonders of the world around you, including your fair metropolis Tokyo. Or perhaps you have entrenched yourself in a foreign bunker there only to venture out amidst other foreigners. If that fits, then I suggest you try to make friends with Japanese and experience the culture as it is, not through the distortions of foreign lenses.

This kind of crap is totally uncalled for.

Quite called for and absolutely true. The more entrenched we are in our own cultural view, the less likely we will understand other cultures. Ever since the time that Westerners made contacts with Japan in the 17th century, Japan has been a "magnet for myths" and the target of much stereotyping (as noted by various scholars).

Included very much is the Japanese educational system and certain references made to the teaching of kanji by Japanese on this thread. Before members of this website criticize Japanese methods, they ought to be mindful of history and the fallibility of human perception. krusher you ought to read up on these topics, you might be surprised about the insights you can gain.

KANJI Wrote:As far as I know there are no studies to verify the claimed merits of RTK.

This might be of interest http://www.kanjiclinic.com/richardson.htm

KANJI Wrote:That has not stopped me from using it and am generally pleased with it.

Me too!

I'm not at a stage where I'm worried about visually similar kanji. To be honest often the similarities help me create stories or sometimes create new primatives. For example the right side where you have goods over tree has become a palate with frozen vegetables on it. I envisage that the visual similarites might cause a problem when it comes to pronouncing the kanji but I still have to get through RTK1.

Some people on the forum obviously think a list of COMMONLY CONFUSED KANJI would be a good thing, and why not? However, the irony screaming out to me on this thread is that if KANJI (capitals, don't forget it sukka!) spent as much time posting pairs of similar kanji as he does writing seemingly erudite responses to people who're telling him in a round about way that he's a dickhead, then the list of COMMONLY CONFUSED KANJI would be complete by now.

Peace out,

synewave,

Thanks for the info on that dissertation. Of course, it needs to be read and evaluated. You're smart enough to know about that, right? Don't judge things by its cover, etc.?
Why don't you make a bibliography of research studies on RKT? That would be a great contribution. You seem like you want to become "erudite" as you put it; work on that bib. will help. I am really glad to hear about that diss., as I had earlier suggested in a post here that RTK would be a great topic to do one on. I am sure there are or will be more.

Let me reiterate: most people here tried different methods, and observed still more people trying different methods. For *us*, RTK works better than those methods, otherwise we would have been using them instead of conversing with you on this site. This is a fact, proven by the virtue of us being here.

Does it mean RTK is perfect? No.
Can it be improved? It sure can. I've deviated from it myself in a few ways, some worked, some didn't.
Is it best for everyone, including Japanese schoolchildren? I have no idea, but probably not.
Is it best for the majority of foreign learners? Looks like it is, but perhaps there are exceptions. You might well be one, no need to feel sad about it. This is where research comes into play (I personally don't care much about it, it works for me and that's enough for now.)
Is it more efficient than the methods used in Japanese schools for us here? Absolutely.

This topic resembles the special olympics! I'm glad that the rest of the forum isn't like this, or I would already have been put off.

Robin :)

colonel32 Wrote:This topic resembles the special olympics! I'm glad that the rest of the forum isn't like this, or I would already have been put off.

Yea, tell me about it. It's almost comical, really. Maybe there are some robots participating in the discussion.

JimmySeal Wrote:

colonel32 Wrote:This topic resembles the special olympics! I'm glad that the rest of the forum isn't like this, or I would already have been put off.

Yea, tell me about it. It's almost comical, really. Maybe there are some robots participating in the discussion.

Nothing is more relaxing than a nice flame war

[ファブリス]

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KANJI, please stop posting topics in all uppercase letters, if only for "netiquette".