I read in the first page of JSL, which is free to download:

Quote:Finished vs unfinished is the significant contrast in Japanese, whereas English speakers tend to think in terms of three time distinctions: past, present, and future.

To me, this seems very relevant and useful and it's not the first time I read about it, however I can't recall where I was introduced to this idea before and I can't find anything that elaborates more on the idea and I'd like to know in more detail what it means. I think Chinese is the same and I guess so is Korean. Also, is this a trend in other Asian languages?

What do you think?

re: other Asian languages, Philippines' capital region-imposed national language has past, present, and future tense.

Korean has a future tense also.

pen0id Wrote:re: other Asian languages, Philippines' capital region-imposed national language has past, present, and future tense.

Tagalog right? Despite being born there (but raised in the US), I don't really know what the "national language" is. According to wiki it says Filipino so I'm confused. What is "Filipino" language? I thought it was a nationality.

lol sorry for straying off topic xD

turvy Wrote:I read in the first page of JSL, which is free to download:

Quote:Finished vs unfinished is the significant contrast in Japanese, whereas English speakers tend to think in terms of three time distinctions: past, present, and future.

To me, this seems very relevant and useful and it's not the first time I read about it, however I can't recall where I was introduced to this idea before and I can't find anything that elaborates more on the idea and I'd like to know in more detail what it means.

This is one of JSL's fundamental ideas. It proceeds fairly simply from a few observations:

1. Future and present are represented by the same conjugation (even if you add ている you're still using the "imperfective" or "unfinished" form). This is actually true in English as well, a fact that's often overlooked by native speakers. Note that to express future, you use the same conjugation of the verb as for present, but you add an auxiliary such as "will" or "going to" to express the future tense. The addition of such an auxiliary is mandatory in most dialects, though -- saying "Tomorrow I go to the store" isn't grammatical in most contexts.

Also note that in English, when other auxiliaries enter the picture the requirement to express future tense is often dropped entirely -- for instance, "I can go tomorrow" vs. "I can go today", or "I might go tomorrow" vs. "I might go today".

2. The "finished" form of the verb (i.e. 食べた, 行きました) can express past tense, but it doesn't have to. It can represent something that will be in the past relative to some other verb, as in 日本に行ったあとで、中国にも行きたい。 Sometimes this is described as "relative tense" and they still speak of the verb form as "past tense"; I think this is more confusing but that may be standard in linguistics.

Good luck with JSL; it's a tough read for anyone. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I taught grammar from the book for about 6 years and I've taught every lesson at least 3 times (sometimes a lot more than that) so I can hopefully answer any questions you might have.

yudantaiteki Wrote:2. The "finished" form of the verb (i.e. 食べた, 行きました) can express past tense, but it doesn't have to. It can represent something that will be in the past relative to some other verb, as in 日本に行ったあとで、中国にも行きたい。 Sometimes this is described as "relative tense" and they still speak of the verb form as "past tense"; I think this is more confusing but that may be standard in linguistics.

Well, this certainly matches the idea of a completed action vs. the past tense.

日本に行ったあとで、中国にも行きたい。
After going to Japan [is done] I want to go to China too.

I don't see how point 2 is different from English either. Wouldn't it be perfectly fine to say "after I've been to Japan I also want to go to China"?

"have been" is not past tense, it's present perfect. I guess the "perfect" is like Japanese but you can't also use that form for past tense. "After I went to Japan, I want to go to China" is nonsense.

this is called "aspect" by semanticists like John Saeed.

yudantaiteki Wrote:"have been" is not past tense, it's present perfect. I guess the "perfect" is like Japanese but you can't also use that form for past tense. "After I went to Japan, I want to go to China" is nonsense.

Oh, that makes a lot more sense now. Thanks a lot.

Maybe this will help me finally get a grasp on Japanese tenses. XD

Splatted Wrote:Maybe this will help me finally get a grasp on Japanese tenses. XD

Let me see if I can get it right, in English you have:
1) Future: simple future, future continuous, future perfect
2) Present: simple present, present continuous, present perfect, present perfect continuous
3) Past: simple past, past continuous, past perfect, past perfect continuous

So, what Japanese tenses are you talking about?

Finished action and unfinished action.

I really can't be that specific, just た　form and う　form.

I am thinking of getting JSL eventually and figure this out.

Splatted Wrote:I really can't be that specific, just た　form and う　form.

JSL calls them "perfective" and "imperfective".

I think it's time for this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_aspect

i said that above.