financialwar Wrote:lol, a lot of you here would not make very good businessman or military officer. Your demise will be your lose lips. One shouldn't tell people their method regardless whether you think they will implement it or not. You only going to make your competition more competitive.

And most of you say that, people don't seem to follow Anki even after tell them about it, I think maybe, just maybe that they are smarter than you in keep secrets. They are secretly studying with Anki and pretending to be lazy, and boom one day you are no longer the best in your Japanese class.

It's true that I do want to make my competition more competitive - I've always found my attitude, interest, intellect and other traits keep me at the top of the class, not the tools I use. It's the ability and drive to find and grok the tools which sets the best apart. In my experience, withholding information from your colleagues or competitors just leads to the entire cohort progressing less rapidly, which makes for a boring cohort.

Being the best because you performed best in a level playing field is an achievement to be proud of, while doing best because you held everyone else back is no achievement at all.

That being said, I'm not a businessman or a military officer, though I am in competition with my cohort for jobs and funding. If I started a business I would probably still use open technologies and tools, and make public my use of them. Then I'd commercialise my particular implementation of whatever I was producing. Secrecy is a flimsy basis for a business.

Interestingly, I think what Damien has done with Anki is a great example of how one can have a successful, open business model.

[ファブリス]

financialwar Wrote:do you tell your family and friends about SRS when they ask you how you can remember all the kanji and other amazing things?

I personally consider SRS a secret and I don't even tell my brother about it and he is in his senior high school.

I find the entire idea of withholding helpful information from your fellow Japanese learners, as well as the idea of "waging a war" in a community like this absolutely ridiculous.

This forum's purpose is completely alien to the idea of withholding information from your peers.

financialwar Wrote:except Damien ruined Anki with Anki 2, he even banned me from Google discussion because I was complaining too much.

Well then. People don't respond very well to excessive negativity. It's not productive and it's not helpful at all. It's a people's world, and social skills go a long way.

We are not waging a war here, "financialwar". As you can see it is made very clear in the forum rules:

Forum Rules Wrote:This website is a labour of love, and any kind of animosity or competition will not be tolerated on this forum.

Usually I am trying to be lenient. There are always going to be arguments, and some of it could be said to be healthy.

However if one member's posts are repeatedly filled with negativity or unnecessary attacks against other members, this admin's patience runs very short.

I have been burned enough times and I know from experience that "pruning" out the most disruptive members is a very effective way to keep the forum healthy. It's very simple. It's nothing personal.

It's a preventive measure to avoid negativity escalating and causing other members to be unjustly targeted or leaving in frustration, when it becomes unmanageable for the admin/moderators to make a fair assessment of the situation.

It's absolutely pointless for me to wait out on a ticking bomb. It's unfortunate because chances are you're not a terribly bad person, "financialwar". However as you stated several times in your replies your competitive attitude is not going to work on here.

Admin: So consider this a warning. Next time you attack other people or create topics of a competitive/counterproductive nature you are permanently banned.

Blahah Wrote:Why would anyone want to keep it to themselves?

The question is not why, but rather how? I knew about SRS way before learning Japanese, which was way back in school, in a time SRS meant painted boxes and index cards. When I decided to learn Japanese, one of the first things I found was a comparison between mnemosyne, Anki, and another SRS software. Took a while until I started using it, but that is different story.

SRS, in my opinion, can hardly be called a secret. The real "secret" is the way folks SRS their information, and how they refine the way of creating cards, and processing information. Not really worth monetizing on anything, but one can, with ___ fill in the blanks, which is anything but new, for instance.

Eventually anyone who comes in touch and works with it for some time, will find the same methods and ways, and share them with others. Even the most fool proof method must not necessarily work for everyone, so that who uses Anki must find ways to apply ideas and methods in a way that it works for them. Those who want to make money, can make money from decks, or plug-ins, but most don't. And that's why I like the community here, sharing of ideas and methods, and everyone can decide to use something that looks promising or not.

I explain or show it to anyone who seems like they might be interested. It tends to go like this, though:
Person: Wow, how did you learn all that? You must be really smart!
Me: No, I just use this flashcard program.
Person: Wow, how technical! You must be really smart!

This happens even when I explain it to people who are much cleverer than I am, so it remains a 'secret' to them despite my efforts. It's kind of simultaneously depressing and oddly amusing. Human nature, eh? You can take a horse to water...

It's incredible how easy it is to convince people you must be really clever just to be tackling a language with all those squiggles in it (despite how little you might actually know), and then you show them how the magic trick is done, and somehow they just end up even more impressed. I always wonder if there's some failure in my ability to explain it. :/ I don't want there to be, I want other people to be able to make use of it too, if it suits them (and I actually don't believe SRS would suit everyone).

Availability of knowledge, information and good learning tools is something I feel quite strongly about. To me, it's not more potential competition, it's more potential knowledgeable people to talk to, who might even be able to help me in turn.

Ampharos64 Wrote:It's incredible how easy it is to convince people you must be really clever just to be tackling a language with all those squiggles in it (despite how little you might actually know), and then you show them how the magic trick is done, and somehow they just end up even more impressed.

That's funny, because that's exactly how a close friend of mine described the Japanese on my Windows 7 lock screen. "It just looks like a bunch of random squiggles!"

It's not really a big secret: when you force yourself to live with the "squiggles" for a while, they become un-random.

Ampharos64 Wrote:Availability of knowledge, information and good learning tools is something I feel quite strongly about. To me, it's not more potential competition, it's more potential knowledgeable people to talk to, who might even be able to help me in turn.

Absolutely. I've learned so much from people on this forum who have given unselfishly of their talents and ideas. The least I can do is pay it forward when the time comes.

off topic: Is it just me, or have there been more occurrences of moderators stepping in and deleting comments and locking threads recently. Sometimes i wonder how often it is actually necessary and how often it is just about the moderators feeling the need to exercise their importance. It's kind of patronizing. As if people aren't adult enough to handle disagreements or 'rude,' 'offensive' or 'trolling' comments. These words are often just labels used by people can't handle disagreement.

nadiatims Wrote:off topic: Is it just me, or have there been more occurrences of moderators stepping in and deleting comments and locking threads recently. Sometimes i wonder how often it is actually necessary and how often it is just about the moderators feeling the need to exercise their importance. It's kind of patronizing. As if people aren't adult enough to handle disagreements or 'rude,' 'offensive' or 'trolling' comments. These words are often just labels used by people can't handle disagreement.

The distinction between a productive and unproductive disagreement is of prime relevance to your criticism. The disagreements in the recently closed threads were overall unproductive. The posts were rife with name-calling and unconfirmed evidence, and so they descended into flame wars with no practical purpose (except as an example of unproductive disagreement). Although I loathe censorship in all forms, some is necessary to maintain a constructive community. If flame wars were allowed to continue uninterrupted, members would flee to other places with more productive discussions.

nadiatims Wrote:off topic: Is it just me, or have there been more occurrences of moderators stepping in and deleting comments and locking threads recently. Sometimes i wonder how often it is actually necessary and how often it is just about the moderators feeling the need to exercise their importance. It's kind of patronizing. As if people aren't adult enough to handle disagreements or 'rude,' 'offensive' or 'trolling' comments. These words are often just labels used by people can't handle disagreement.

Quite. I got home from work to find an email from Zgarbas and a thread with my user name as the title. I would happily reply to the OP of said thread but it has been locked -
I don't know whether Zgarbas has got my email or not but I find it hurtful that I can't reply to somebody in public.

[ファブリス]

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:Quite. I got home from work to find an email from Zgarbas and a thread with my user name as the title. I would happily reply to the OP of said thread but it has been locked -
I don't know whether Zgarbas has got my email or not but I find it hurtful that I can't reply to somebody in public.

Just to be clear I don't approve of kikakitsune's thread. In my opinion it's not appropriate to make a thread that singles out someone like this, as this is akin to public naming and shaming. If a member has a personal issue they should take it to email. If they want to bring attention to a troublesome poster, then take it also to email to me or a mod.

This kind of thread leads less scrutinizing members to view things out of context, and it tends to blow things out of proportion. It's always going to be flawed due to personal perceptions. Zgarbas did the right thing locking the thread, but I don't think it will be very useful to keep it "logged" so I deleted it now.

As for getting a personal email from a mod, I will have to discuss with Zgarbas about it. It's not my preferred approach. I do agree warnings are better issued in public, along with an explanation. Though it seems like "cleaning the laundry in public", it is less personal than using the person's email and gives a chance to other people to comment on the situation. It is also helpful to me to keep my head cool as I can get some feedback that way.

With that said I haven't had lots of time today. Zgarbas emailed me to ask about moderation, and I didn't have time to discuss at length.

Keep in mind she's getting to grips with this particular community. It's a whole different thing posting, and having to moderate the forum. She's doing it voluntarily as well. I learned by trial and error and I expect the mods will do as well.

nadiatims Wrote:Is it just me, or have there been more occurrences of moderators stepping in and deleting comments and locking threads recently.

Is it just me or are there occurences of dramatizing here? What moderators are you talking about? Me? Zgarbas? Be specific with your complaints or begone with the broad strokes criticism.

Fabrice - i don't mind the personal email from a mod/watchman -I am here to learn Japanese and help/encourage others to learn Japanese, though I would like a reply. I wish more people would send me emails to discuss personal "issues" with me.

admin: delete this thread if you think it is encourage competition. I don't know how you'd expect people not to be competitive, and the very nature of learning a second language is to be more competitive in life.

ファブリス Wrote:

nadiatims Wrote:Is it just me, or have there been more occurrences of moderators stepping in and deleting comments and locking threads recently.

Is it just me or are there occurences of dramatizing here? What moderators are you talking about? Me? Zgarbas? Be specific with your complaints or begone with the broad strokes criticism.

I can't remember every specific case nor do i know who the moderators are. I just mean I see more red text and thread closing recently. I wonder about the necessity since it's not like this place is constantly erupting into flame wars or anything.

financialwar Wrote:admin: delete this thread if you think it is encourage competition. I don't know how you'd expect people not to be competitive, and the very nature of learning a second language is to be more competitive in life.

If the creators of leitner sys/SuperMemo/Mnemosyne/Anki etc. didn't "share" their knowledge, will this thread even exist?

ファブリス Wrote:

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:Quite. I got home from work to find an email from Zgarbas and a thread with my user name as the title. I would happily reply to the OP of said thread but it has been locked -
I don't know whether Zgarbas has got my email or not but I find it hurtful that I can't reply to somebody in public.

Just to be clear I don't approve of kikakitsune's thread. In my opinion it's not appropriate to make a thread that singles out someone like this, as this is akin to public naming and shaming. If a member has a personal issue they should take it to email. If they want to bring attention to a troublesome poster, then take it also to email to me or a mod.

Generally I agree, but I think perhaps an exception should have been made for that thread. HonyakuJoshua has made a number of comments in posts that he's made death threats to people in the past and to their family -- what I find particularly chilling is not just the content but how he casually tosses the fact that he threatened a person and their family with death into a post as if it's nothing remarkable. Honestly I am slightly scared of him being on this forum and I hope he never finds out any of my personal information. I really feel that he owes this community a public explanation for his comments.

As for the main topic, I think that in order to successfully learn a language you have to enjoy (to a certain extent) studying the language -- it's not enough just to want to learn the language. SRS can make things easier but it's not going to overcome the basic problem of motivation.

[Zgarbas]

nadiatims Wrote:

Quote:Is it just me, or have there been more occurrences of moderators stepping in and deleting comments and locking threads recently.

I can't remember every specific case nor do i know who the moderators are. I just mean I see more red text and thread closing recently. I wonder about the necessity since it's not like this place is constantly erupting into flame wars or anything.

Out of the top of my mind:
- 1 thread closed because of turning into everyone either giving the same advice or jumping on a user.
- A few posts edited because of crude jokes, graphic images, or disturbing content (some actually graphic and disturbing, some only slightly so, but enough to get a report).
- 1 thread closed because of drama. Sparked a discussion which a user took too seriously, ended with a ragequit. The original point& its answers were made, though, so I closed it because post-ragequit threads tend to become about that.

There actually have been more edits lately, since we've been getting lots of reports this past month for some reason.

@HonyakuJoshua I'm a bit busy atm, but I'll reply by tonight. Just for the record, anyone can send you an e-mail via the forum system without actually getting your e-mail address until your reply.

Blahah Wrote:That being said, I'm not a businessman or a military officer, though I am in competition with my cohort for jobs and funding. If I started a business I would probably still use open technologies and tools, and make public my use of them. Then I'd commercialise my particular implementation of whatever I was producing. Secrecy is a flimsy basis for a business.

Interestingly, I think what Damien has done with Anki is a great example of how one can have a successful, open business model.

Well said Blahah! I completely agree with you. Initially I was very hesitant to introduce Anki to my fellow students and peers as I thought they would get ahead of me. Then I realized that's being the best by withholding information isn't the spirit of being competitive. So I am trying my best to tell everyone about the usefulness of Anki. However, many people are lazy and don't even try using it.

To test the theory that despite introducing Anki on a fb post, it got no likes or comments. Guess now for my case, it's hidden in plain sight xD

So we've mentioned several times that the reason people generally aren't interested is because they can't be bothered to look into it.

I'm often patient about things that make me curious myself, but I can relate to the feeling of how long time it took to realize how to use Anki when all I had was the link to the site and its documentation. I wanted more practical examples, screenshots etc.

Does anyone know of any sites that explain SRS in a very simple fashion? So that rather than linking people to the main site and hoping they'll spend the time to figure it out, you could link them to an easy guide instead?

I once saw a video guide of Anki on youtube. There must be others with an introduction (wouldn't be surprised if Nukemarine had already done that).

I never keep Anki a secret, and quite blantantly use it wher I work for all to see (and hear) I used to be self concious about balring out simple Chinese in a Chinese office but I care little about that now

It has proven usefull for maintaing my Japanese while I struggle with the oddness that is Chinese. THough I do get plenty of Japnese listening practice, it is everywhere here!

Anki is not too hard to work out, I am definatly a dunce when I come to computers and I figured it out ^^

Not at all. I explain how I learn the language and that I use anki and that it is really useful. But I get the same response as you other guys here."you msut be a genius, or something" I got some people to start using Anki though, and some were using it already!

EratiK Wrote:I once saw a video guide of Anki on youtube. There must be others with an introduction (wouldn't be surprised if Nukemarine had already done that).

I forgot the official intro videos that are linked to from the main site. They're good, but I'm thinking practical examples specific to Japanese could encourage Japanese learners better. Also those videos are two years old now.

These links might be good
http://www.squidoo.com/how-to-learn-kanji
http://japaneselevelup.com/2011/01/29/ho...t-1-kanji/

eggcluck Wrote:Anki is not too hard to work out, I am definatly a dunce when I come to computers and I figured it out ^^

Yeah I don't think anyone could be unable to figure out how it works as long as their patience doesn't disolve at the thought of having to spend the time doing it

On the withholding of information for competitive advantage:

Congratulations on your victory against handicapped opponents! You must be truly exceptional. I can already see it inscribed in the tomes of history, "The most brilliant individual of the age, who triumphed over his foes by guarding the secrets of success." It will look especially impressive next to the fools who overcame opponents who had access to the same resources.

vileru Wrote:On the withholding of information for competitive advantage:

Congratulations on your victory against handicapped opponents! You must be truly exceptional. I can already see it inscribed in the tomes of history, "The most brilliant individual of the age, who triumphed over his foes by guarding the secrets of success." It will look especially impressive next to the fools who overcame opponents who had access to the same resources.

LOLZ. I find two things amusing about this attitude:

(1) You can't really keep anything a secret in this day and age. Once something gets on the Internet, it's effectively permanent public knowledge.

(2) The real "secret" to learning Japanese is "put in an ass-ton of hours reading, hearing, and speaking Japanese".