According to my deck information I've been going at it for 2.7 years, in that time I spent 1.831 months SRSing (not that accurate because of how time is logged, significant still). Thing is, despite this enormous effort I feel I gained very little, I still make tons of mistakes (67.8% mature, 66.8% total), my vocabulary has increased theoretically but with very little practical implication.

In my experience there is no "connection" in my brain between a word and its meaning even for those that I grade as correct. I've asked myself this after a few cards: would I be able to recognize this word and associate it with meaning if I heard it in a conversation or even read it in a sentence? In many cases my answer would be a firm "No" and this is what makes me question the logic in my actions. I feel like a monkey responding to a visual cue from a subset of cards that doesn't understand its material but rather is just responding mechanically.

There are other problems I have with this approach: I don't find it fun at all and it takes me a lot of time to go through my daily workload even if its just 200-300 cards (procrastination). I feel like my time could be spent better on other activities because I treat SRS like a necessary evil I have to do but often don't follow it up with anything significant to actual study of the language. My biggest "surges" in Japanese ability came from actually going to Japan or watching/reading loads of media in their native form, not from reaching a milestone in SRS. Coincidentally on all those occasions I wasn't doing reps any at all but managed to improve greatly despite that.

I didn't use SRS to master my native language, I didn't use it for English either and I'm not sure if its necessary for me to use it in my study of Japanese .I think I require more context to actually learn a word and I'm not going to find it by repeating my material over and over, I need to stumble a few times in different situations on the same word/concept to learn it properly.

Generally I'd rather read more sentences and try to understand & dissect them than put one of them in SRS and repeat that relentlessly. Those 200-300 words daily (I use a vocab deck but sentence deck would have the same problem) is around 2 pages worth of text, its ridiculously small amount given that even now I can read those pages faster than I'd do that many reps as long as my material is engaging and not a random collection of things I've already read 10x over.

Am I nuts or does this all make sense? I'm not saying SRS doesn't work, I just don't think it works in my case and circumstances.

Have you ever considered cutting back on your decks to the point where you only work through 50 or so facts a day?

That would free up a lot of time to spend on other activities.

Makes sense to me.

I do SRS vocabulary, but I try to keep my reviews around 50-70 per day. I do it because there's so much vocabulary that you might see once and then not see again for six months, and I would rather try to keep some of those words fresh for the next time I see them, but I think that SRS works better when married to a lot of exposure to the language. And when I was not using SRS, when I was just reading a lot, I increased my vocabulary a lot, and I especially got to a better understanding of fuzzy non-translatable stuff -- collocations and usage and that kind of thing.

If it's not working for you, you should definitely do something else!

I try to keep my srs sessions as painless as possible....

eg: concentrating on learning one thing at a time rather than multiple.

or giving hints if there is a likelihood that the answer could be confused with the answer for another card.

this way my success rate stays around 80-90 percent and I can speed through the reviews. (around 500 a day that I complete mostly on public transport)

The real learning however comes when using language outside the srs.

think of it more like training wheels

It sounds like you really want to dump your SRS deck and focus on reading/listening. You should do it! Do whatever helps you learn and keeps you engaged with the language. This is your game; you make the rules. Do what seems right, and report back on your findings.

In my experience, reading/listening/speaking definitely need to take the front seat. I don't feel like I truly know a word until I've seen it used in various contexts a number of times. Plus, parsing a show or reading a book/manga is way more fun than drilling flash cards...

This is speculation of course but I feel some things are good to be SRSed and others just aren't. For example, SRSing Kanji for meaning, reading, etc., is wonderful and it works. But SRSing for things like grammar just doesn't make sense to me. Also, SRSing 200~300 cards a day would suck horribly.

Hmm... I feel that the experience is completely the opposite for me. I feel that I get a lot of benefit from learning vocabulary in the SRS, not so much from just trying to enjoy real Japanese. I take it fairly slow, maybe 5 new words per day, but when I do go and read or watch something, I am constantly noticing words I have learned in the SRS. I can't always recall the meaning immediately, but I recognize that I should know it.

On the other hand, I just read a 150 page manga the other day without stopping to look up anything. I had maybe 75% understanding. I learned maybe 1 or 2 new things from reading it. I really felt like it was a waste of time. I also watched roughly one hundred raw episodes of an anime in a fairly short period of time, and got almost nothing out of it.
The only time real media ever seems to benefit me is if I look up the words I dont know and then add them to the SRS. In which case I could have accomplished the same thing by just using a premade word list.

This is my take on srsing via programs like anki. For me, it is useful for 1. "priming" (a lesson I learned from using Heisig's method and this site). And, 2. helping me remember phrases I'd REALLY LIKE TO REMEMBER but perhaps haven't had the opportunity to use yet (both priming and long term memory creation). The rest of my "study" time is spent reading, watching and listening.

In other words, I'm using SRS only to remember things, not learn them. Why bother with massive sentence decks of stuff I've never seen before and am probably not interested in memorizing anyway? To learn grammar? Context? Can't I learn those from reading, listening, etc. and a couple of good reference books?

I'm thinking that Khatz's approach really wasn't that different. He immersed himself in Japanese while also using srs apps to help him memorize phrases and words he really liked. The question in my mind is whether the massive amount of input and spaced-repetition ala Antimoon came from lots of reading, watching etc., or from flipping cards in an srs. I'm leaning towards the former ;-)

That said, I only keep 2 types of decks per language:
1. A large, frequency-ordered vocab deck for priming; kanji.koohii for writing kanji
2. A deck for things I'd like to remember (funny jokes, izakaya banter, kotowaza...)

I think subs2srs decks have merit too as means to lower the learning curve for understanding dramas (an effective tool for achieving a well-focused goal).

Quote:The only time real media ever seems to benefit me is if I look up the words I dont know and then add them to the SRS. In which case I could have accomplished the same thing by just using a premade word list.

I don't know about that; the reason I've always preferred getting my words from media is that I'm likely to get, not just a generic Bunch Of Useful Words, but a particular subset of words that are relevant for what I'm doing right now. Words that are connected to whatever topic I'm reading about, and words that are going to keep showing up if I keep reading about that topic.

It works kind of like a mnemonic when "suspect" and "motive" and "investigation" are all gathered together in the same corner of my mind because I learned them all from reading the same mystery novel.

Zarxrax Wrote:Hmm... I feel that the experience is completely the opposite for me. I feel that I get a lot of benefit from learning vocabulary in the SRS, not so much from just trying to enjoy real Japanese. I take it fairly slow, maybe 5 new words per day, but when I do go and read or watch something, I am constantly noticing words I have learned in the SRS. I can't always recall the meaning immediately, but I recognize that I should know it.

On the other hand, I just read a 150 page manga the other day without stopping to look up anything. I had maybe 75% understanding. I learned maybe 1 or 2 new things from reading it. I really felt like it was a waste of time. I also watched roughly one hundred raw episodes of an anime in a fairly short period of time, and got almost nothing out of it.
The only time real media ever seems to benefit me is if I look up the words I dont know and then add them to the SRS. In which case I could have accomplished the same thing by just using a premade word list.

That was my experience too. Approaching raw Japanese with a limited vocabulary produced very little results save from a better ear for the sound of the language. Once I started cramming vocabulary from simple word lists like core10k, all of these activities became more active. My approach was to cram vocab using Iverson-style lists and mnemonics and use anki for retention purposes (assuming that it would take some time before I'd see the words again (or often enough) in native materials to form understanding in context etc.

How many cards are in your deck or decks? "Only 200-300 cards" would drive me crazy.

bertoni Wrote:How many cards are in your deck or decks? "Only 200-300 cards" would drive me crazy.

I think the original poster meant 200-300/day, i.e., in repetitions of previously seen cards. A 300-card vocab deck wouldn't get you very far.

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:

bertoni Wrote:How many cards are in your deck or decks? "Only 200-300 cards" would drive me crazy.

I think the original poster meant 200-300/day, i.e., in repetitions of previously seen cards. A 300-card vocab deck wouldn't get you very far.

Bertoni means the opposite I think--that 200 or 300 reps a day is enough to drive him crazy.

I concur. Working full time, even at my super easy job, makes 200-300 reps a day too much.

I've been using Anki for close to 3 years now (SRS in general for 3 years). I've learn to get the most out of it is actually pretty simple. One must only add a small amount of cards per day (20 is default) and must keep up with it daily. Sounds simple right? The problem people have with it in the long-run is the large amount of repetitions and the feel of not really learning anything.

I currently have 2 decks and I constantly delete cards from my Vocabulary deck and add at a pace of 20 a day. I time box by the number of reps (100 reps each session until I go down to zero). My reps are on average 300 a day for vocab deck. This doesn't take long but that's because I know myself well now. I time-box,add small amounts,collect vocabulary from native sources and only add what I feel I should know/what is fun to me.

The key is to delete whatever you feel isn't necessary for you to remember. Names are things I delete now, same with place names (aside from the major ones). I know for a fact I won't be able to learn everything and that's why I delete cards and pace myself.

My target now is production (speaking/writing) and translation(going to get a job pretty soon).

Yes, I meant 200-300 cards a day would drive me crazy. I am annoyed with the 80 or so I am getting these days. It should drop soon, I hope.

bertoni Wrote:Yes, I meant 200-300 cards a day would drive me crazy. I am annoyed with the 80 or so I am getting these days. It should drop soon, I hope.

I was up to 200 a day on a previous sentence deck that I abandoned. It was early in my studies, and I had either taken on too much at once or had misconfigured Anki. And yes, it did drive me batty.

It seems to me that Anki 2.0 is better than its predecessor at keeping reviews to a manageable minimum. Anyone else experience this?

My approach since learning mass amounts of vocabulary with Anki was always this. When I couldn't really read but decipher sentences, due to the lack of grammar knowledge, particles and lack of vocabulary, this was a huge benefit. I was always copying words out and looked them up in google, and read whatever seemed interesting, until I was able to really read something. Currently I am now at the point that I see words outside Anki first, and only then in the corePLUS deck, which is the last deck for me. Only thing left is 240 JLPT N1 words, and maybe the homophone and suru parts.

After that, I will stop Anki, because it is easy now to <em>get</em> things from context, and to understand more and more words I have never seen before. In so far, having learned some 24.000 words in the past 2 years, with many more learned outside Anki and never bothered to SRS, Anki looses its value. So, if you don't see a need to use Anki, because you get more from real media, books, news, whatever, stop using it.

If you really feel the need to memorize anything, SRS that and move on. The more time not spent in Anki, the more time is available for other activities.

[Zgarbas]

If it feels like a chore and you don't feel you're getting much out of it, just don't do it. SRS is lovely and all, but if it doesn't work for you then that's all that should matter.

To clarify I currently have 9300 vocab cards active.

kitakitsune Wrote:Have you ever considered cutting back on your decks to the point where you only work through 50 or so facts a day?

That would free up a lot of time to spend on other activities.

After a long period of not adding new cards I got to around 100-120 reviews per day so from that point, in a year I'd probably get down to 50 but the thing is, if something is not working for me why would I invest my time in it? I'd just be reducing the amount of wasted time, not exactly the best course of action.

Tzadeck Wrote:I concur. Working full time, even at my super easy job, makes 200-300 reps a day too much.

Yeah its way too much in my opinion too, I guess the better way to go about it is only add very obscure/interesting/slang words you really want to remember (not some premade lists) and keep it as small as possible with gradual expansion (none of that 20-100 words/day crap).

Fillanzea Wrote:It works kind of like a mnemonic when "suspect" and "motive" and "investigation" are all gathered together in the same corner of my mind because I learned them all from reading the same mystery novel.

Exactly, its so much easier to learn this way. "Connection" in your brain is much more vivid and longer lasting when words are associated in a common theme, especially if the source was involving (like many good novels are). What I also found is that many words are very context dependent and no amount of definitions will explain them properly, those 1-2 example sentences also aren't enough to really "get" that word either. For them there is no other alternative than constant reinforcement in different contexts and situations, otherwise it will be just an empty definition and may never end as a part of ones active vocabulary.

To others: Thanks for your opinions and insights, I'll evaluate my progress in a couple of months and share if it was worth it. Today I'll do multiple backups of my current deck (I did put a lot of work into it: definitions/example sentences etc.) and then get rid of Anki altogether on all of my devices.

thurd I want to ask a few questions if you don't mind.

1) How many of those 9300 vocab cards you learned through pre-made decks?
2) How many books (or manga) you have read so far?
3) How many books (or manga) you have read after learning 2000 words?

qwarten Wrote:thurd I want to ask a few questions if you don't mind.

1) How many of those 9300 vocab cards you learned through pre-made decks?
2) How many books (or manga) you have read so far?
3) How many books (or manga) you have read after learning 2000 words?

1. Most of them, my deck consists of jlpt3&4+core2k+6k and a lot of popular suru verbs (not premade but extracted from JDIC), rest is what I've found myself but I'm not sure about exact number.
2. One book and a few small manga, nothing significant and thats the problem in my opinion. I planned on reading 10 books this year and so far I didn't read one...
3. Reading became manageable after around 6k+ words, before that I could barely get through a page without going crazy.

So let me get this straight, you don't see any benefit that you have obtained from using SRS, but yet you weren't able to comfortably read anything until after you had SRSed about 6000 words?
Sounds like some pretty serious progress to me.

Hmmm... I don't know... once you get the jouyou kanji down, learning new vocabulary is pretty simple... you might want to evaluate the layout of your cards though. Make them as simple as possible. 9 times out of 10, when you are speaking Japanese you aren't going to be using advanced Japanese anyways. As long as you get the basics down (you will quickly if you actively speak Japanese everyday) you should be fine.

My card layouts look like this:

front:
未ｘ
future

back:
未来
みらい

and then the next one would be

front:
ｘ来
future

back:
未来
みらい

with cards like these, 200/day is perfectly doable in an hour or less. then you can use the rest of the time to read and see the actual words put in context etc.

Zarxrax Wrote:So let me get this straight, you don't see any benefit that you have obtained from using SRS, but yet you weren't able to comfortably read anything until after you had SRSed about 6000 words?
Sounds like some pretty serious progress to me.

I don't read comfortably, I read just about enough to not be completely pissed by my slow pace. That 6k words was about initial progress, going by frequency lists is great when you're just starting since it allows you to slowly work through native materials but in my case if I did what I did so far for another 2.7 years my Japanese would be nowhere near as good as it should be at 5 years mark. Thats why I think my methods have to change.

@Hashiriya some words aren't as straightforward as 未来, for them the whole "keep it simple" breaks down since just the bare definition of meanings in English can be extremely long.

How does your card for 収める look like?

I guess im the completely opposite. Circumstances has led me for it to take around 2hours each day to srs through everything cause I have 800 cards. Reading manga, watching raws, sure it yields me a bit but mostly just frustration for not understanding much due to lack of grammar and vocabulary. There's very little fun in having to check up several words from each page. With that said, I'm pretty certain that once I hit the core 6000 mark anki will lose its importance and will be less used with less reps. At that point ill likely have deleted a lot of cards, removed decks and so on. For beginner students and intermediate students, for anyone who dont comprehend significant parts of what they read or hear anki is golden. I keep a pace at around 80 new cards a day.