turvy Wrote:For a Japanese learning English 私はあなたの靴が好きです is the best sentence, because that's what you are actually saying in English.

For a Japanese already fluent in English translating "I like your shoes", 靴可愛いね is the best sentence of course. Because they already the underlying grammar and is aware of the cultural differences.

Where is Fluency? I can't find her anywhere.

@Zgarbas I didn't come up with the shoes example, that was in response to @eslang in reference to one of the articles. I don't think is a great example either.

A mi me gustan los zapatos que tu llevas.
I like the shoes that you wear / you are wearing.

Me gustan tus zapatos.
I like your shoes.

Están fino los zapatos.
Nice shoes.

What barrier?

turvy Wrote:For a Japanese learning English 私はあなたの靴が好きです is the best sentence, because that's what you are actually saying in English.

I can't see how it's what you're "actually saying" when it doesn't mean the same thing. You seem to be saying that because a dictionary gives "like" as a translation for some meanings of 好き in English, the best representation of the English sentence must use 好き in the Japanese, even if it doesn't mean the same thing.

Zgarbas Wrote:But...
I still say it's overstating the gaps between languages and confusing language characteristics for cultural gaps.

For many people that have become accustomed to a language; those gaps may be cracks in the pavement, but for many other learners they can be giant ravines. These gaps are not quantifiable, and some "gaps" may be considerably more difficult for some people because of their mother tongue.

eslang's/article's example was quite good really though I think he should have done it in reverse.
Most beginner English speakers of Japanese are likely to translate "I like your shoes." from E->J as 私はあなたの靴が好きです because of how pronoun/subject focused English is. Where as once you are accustomed to Japanese, you'll know that 靴可愛いね may be fine in spoken language depending on context.
English user's think heavily in subjects; there has to be subjects in everything otherwise it just "feels wrong." This aspect of English is the result of the original roots through which English grew--the cultural morphing of the language.

You can downplay these differences all you want, but for many learners they are large hurdles to clear on the way to fluency in a language. And there are many other hurdles just like it spread along the road. They're there, that's a fact. They had to get there too somehow and some of us are saying that it came about through culture. I don't understand what's so hard to accept about this. If culture had 0 affect on languages then all language would be practically identical and learning another language shouldn't be that difficult--yet it is.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

turvy Wrote:For a Japanese learning English 私はあなたの靴が好きです is the best sentence, because that's what you are actually saying in English.

I can't see how it's what you're "actually saying" when it doesn't mean the same thing. You seem to be saying that because a dictionary gives "like" as a translation for some meanings of 好き in English, the best representation of the English sentence must use 好き in the Japanese, even if it doesn't mean the same thing.

What turvy is talking about is what David Bellos refers to as "wording" rather than actual translating - changing sentences in one language into another word-for-word or small chunk-for-small chunk, with the objective of getting acquainted with unfamiliar vocabulary and sentence patterns. turvy has already said that he agrees this isn't right for actual translating but that he thinks it's useful for learning.

I don't really agree with this approach, but I can see why some people would think it's useful. David Bellos seems to think it's worthwhile, and he knows a heck of a lot more than I do.

The problem with not learning "word-for-word" or "chunk-for-chunk" is that you are then limited to learning sentences and paragraphs with an entire context that will certainly not be applicable to anything else.

When learning a language you need to break it down and associate L2 words with L1 words and ideas. From there you can begin to stitch things back together and slowly work on the correct way to phrase things within context. Unfortunately this is the only way to really learn a language. It`s how we learn our respective L1`s except we associate words with just ideas.

It`s been said but using 私はあなたの靴が好きです is a bad example anyway because walking up to someone and saying "Nice shoes" makes perfect sense and is exactly what someone would say. Sure, there`s the ingrained meaning that you also like them but when learning a foreign language you don`t know that initially. Learning almost word-for-word, literal, translations can be important as you get to understand each word. Otherwise you`ll be learning sentences and paragraphs for every possible situation and context for the rest of your life.

[Zgarbas]

vix86 Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:But...
I still say it's overstating the gaps between languages and confusing language characteristics for cultural gaps.

For many people that have become accustomed to a language; those gaps may be cracks in the pavement, but for many other learners they can be giant ravines. These gaps are not quantifiable, and some "gaps" may be considerably more difficult for some people because of their mother tongue.

eslang's/article's example was quite good really though I think he should have done it in reverse.
Most beginner English speakers of Japanese are likely to translate "I like your shoes." from E->J as 私はあなたの靴が好きです because of how pronoun/subject focused English is. Where as once you are accustomed to Japanese, you'll know that 靴可愛いね may be fine in spoken language depending on context.
English user's think heavily in subjects; there has to be subjects in everything otherwise it just "feels wrong." This aspect of English is the result of the original roots through which English grew--the cultural morphing of the language.

You can downplay these differences all you want, but for many learners they are large hurdles to clear on the way to fluency in a language. And there are many other hurdles just like it spread along the road. They're there, that's a fact. They had to get there too somehow and some of us are saying that it came about through culture. I don't understand what's so hard to accept about this. If culture had 0 affect on languages then all language would be practically identical and learning another language shouldn't be that difficult--yet it is.

I just don't see how different=cultural gap. All languages have characteristics, and they vary, but that doesn't make it a gargantuan cultural gap, it just makes it different. Not saying it's not difficult to grasp the subtleties of the language or adjusting the wording to however the speakers of that certain language would use it, but from that to different ways of thinking based on cultural differences is an overstatement.

Also, I'm really peeved by the "not like in Spanish" comment. Had a whole big post lined up but my phone didn't post it for some reason =(. I hate it when people look down on "normal" languages by downplaying their difficulty. In short...

vix86 Wrote:A mi me gustan los zapatos que tu llevas.
I like the shoes that you wear / you are wearing.

Me gustan tus zapatos.
I like your shoes.

Están fino los zapatos.
Nice shoes.

What barrier?

...The barrier in which from Spanish to English you change the whole case of the subject, where you cut down the nominal pronoun altogether, where being too verbose makes it sound completely unnatural in Spanish*, whereas in English it would be OK, etc?
Which is kinda the exact same thing as how you change your phrasing in Japanese, but for some reason you are not acknowledging it when it happens in Spanish. Language knowledge, experience, exposure, perhaps; it happens with pretty much any language, I fail to see why Japanese would be considered special regarding this aspect. Of course, it has some fundamental differences which would require much practice to naturalize, but the differences will only hold you back for as much as you allow them to.

*similar to how if I were as verbose in my own language as I were in English I would stand out horribly, given our tendency to have one-word sentences(sometimes not even that, given our tendency to replace sentences with random onomatopoeia). Now THAT'S a good way to confuse any foreigners trying to learn the language.

Zgarbas Wrote:Not saying it's not difficult to grasp the subtleties of the language or adjusting the wording to however the speakers of that certain language would use it, but from that to different ways of thinking based on cultural differences is an overstatement.

I guess because we can't crawl in each persons head and see how they are thinking about it. It'll continue to be a point of debate. But just looking at the Linguistic relativity research and just observing small things like behavior changes when people switch languages. I am still quite keen to believe languages affect the way people think and by extension, since languages are products of culture, therefore culture affects peoples thought.

Also.
Just to clarify. turvy brought up the Spanish. You misquoted. I know 0 about Spanish.

[Zgarbas]

I know it was turvy, was just putting that in .

I reaaally wouldn't bet on linguistic relativity research. It's an obscure branch based on anecdotal evidence and it really isn't the most trust-worthy source of information. I'd stick to standard anthropological linguistics. (Linguists needlessly complicate and argue over matters to begin with. Amateur linguists get even crazier, but less accurate in their observations)

Zgarbas Wrote:I still say it's overstating the gaps between languages and confusing language characteristics for cultural gaps.

Borrowing from your website: http://goblinjapanese.wordpress.com/2011/10/

A few reasons why I love Japanese - Posted on October 20, 2011
4. The language is embedded with the country’s culture.

I’m big on linguistics, sorta. I’m an amateur, so that translates to “I don’t know anything” in the linguistic world. I think Japanese is any linguist/linguistic anthropologist’s wet dream. I mean it’s kind of cool how these 3 different countries have the same word for something because of their common Latin ancestry but Oh My God are those things derived from a simplistic tribal view on things and have been well preserved for millenia? Sprinkled with the historical view on various subjects? And the national attitude and general view on life is totally reflected in the language? It’s Christmas all over again.

If I may ask... what are these 3 different countries being referred to? For privacy's sake, it may not be appropriate to reply here. I can understand and respect that... so it isn't necessary to reply if it might compromise your privacy in some sense.

On a side note, I like your website. It's simply clean and easy (on the eye-sight) for reading.
If you don't mind, may I participate (i.e. post comment) on your website later?

Zgarbas Wrote:I just don't see how different=cultural gap. All languages have characteristics, and they vary, but that doesn't make it a gargantuan cultural gap, it just makes it different. Not saying it's not difficult to grasp the subtleties of the language or adjusting the wording to however the speakers of that certain language would use it, but from that to different ways of thinking based on cultural differences is an overstatement.

No clue about how and when the Japanese language was being perceived as "gargantuan" cultural gap in this thread. However, I think it is just different, and to think otherwise is sort of being foolish/silly/romanticism/fantasy/whatever.....

Probably, some of it may be due to some myth or "category" created by the views of The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) of the US Department of State and/or The Defense Language Aptitude Battery (DLAB) is a test used by the United States Department of Defense. :lol: Hmm... maybe there are many Americans using this site? さあね。


As quoted above from your website, (hope you don't mind the cross-referencing)
"I think Japanese is any linguist/linguistic anthropologist’s wet dream."

... which reminded me of this interesting conversation between an American and a Japanese anthropologist, a few years ago. They were talking about what a Japanese person might tend to say during a sex climax. The Japanese person says "Iki sou! Iku iku!!" however the American goes "I'm gonna come! / I'm coming!!". 面白いでしょ。　Wondering how it goes in other languages.


I find that the characteristics of language -- (1) a system, (2) is dynamic, (3) dialects, (4) sociolect (5) idiolect and cultural gap have a certain degree of overlapping. Culture gaps can relate to religion, ethnicity, age, or social class.

The Characteristics of Language by Kendra Cherry
One of the most amazing aspects of human cognitive abilities is the capacity to understand, learn, and produce language. Language can be defined as a systematic way to convey meaning using symbols and sounds. Communication and language are integral to the study of human psychology. Although there are more than 3,000 languages, spoken and signed, in the world today, all human languages share the same basic characteristics, which will be examined in this chapter.

“Standard” usage is usually determined by the class of speakers with the most social power. There is nothing inherently superior about one dialect versus another. This also holds for different languages. There is simply no such thing as a primitive language. All languages are complex and creative systems used with full efficiency among their speakers.

Zgarbas, I'm with you about getting peeved when some languages are "deemed as more superior" than the others.


And to sum up my sentiment about this topic:
The Japanese Language Program at Amherst
As cognitive scientists claim, language is the mirror of the mind. Without an understanding of the mind of the people who produce the arts, write the books, or pursue the philosophical thinking, you are not likely to grasp the essence of these activities and productions.

Learning a foreign language involves understanding the logic that underlies the thinking of the people who speak the language. In learning the Japanese language, you learn the language-specific logic of the Japanese language, which is quite different from that of the English language.

In learning a foreign language, you are in fact learning the building blocks of the entire cognitive and logical structure of that language. Of course, you will have to memorize words and some expressions in Japanese, just as you do in your own native language. But to learn even a word requires the understanding of the facts that surround this word and its implications. You will find that there is no great burden of memorization when you learn the reason or the logic behind the words or sentences that you are learning.


Whew! What a lengthy and long-winded way to express it into English. (*シンドイ*)
Some times, words get in the way, doesn't it? Somehow, as Vix86 had written: "because we can't crawl in each persons head and see how they are thinking about it." 残念ながら。。。orz

vix86 Wrote:Just to clarify. turvy brought up the Spanish.

Nope, Zgarbas did. But I think the point was something like the barrier between Spanish and English is just a little fence compared to the brick wall between English and Japanese.

eslang Wrote:They were talking about what a Japanese person might tend to say during a sex climax. The Japanese person says "Iki sou! Iku iku!!" however the American goes "I'm gonna come! / I'm coming!!". 面白いでしょ。　Wondering how it goes in other languages.

*I'm gonna cum! / I'm cumming!! The verb "to come" means "to arrive" vs. "to cum" which has a.... different meaning. [What does Iki Sou literally mean?]

I wouldn't say that it doesn't become a great burden of memorization when you understand the logic behind the language. After all, there are still countless examples of concrete words that differ between the two languages that must be memorized. I.e. "Steel vs. Hagane" or "Fish vs. Sakana". Sure, the words may have slightly different nuisances (Kokoro, while being the name of the actual anatomical part that pumps blood, has a second meaning, just like "heart" does in English), one must memorize the words by brute force (Japanese isn't Esperanto).

But yes, different languages have different ways to put things. In Hindi, one says "Are there subtitles in this movie" vs. "Does this movie have subtitles" and "My brother exists" vs. "I have a brother". I assume there are numerous examples in Japanese.

Something I don't think has been considered much is Idioms. In English [at least America, I don't know about England] we use phrases like "pulling my leg" or "wise guy" that don't seem to make sense literally, yet every native speaker understands them automatically. Perhaps this has something to do with the language's internal logic?

Marble101 Wrote:

eslang Wrote:They were talking about what a Japanese person might tend to say during a sex climax. The Japanese person says "Iki sou! Iku iku!!" however the American goes "I'm gonna come! / I'm coming!!". 面白いでしょ。　Wondering how it goes in other languages.

*I'm gonna cum! / I'm cumming!! The verb "to come" means "to arrive" vs. "to cum" which has a.... different meaning. [What does Iki Sou literally mean?]

I'm pretty sure the spelling 'cum' was invented by the porn industry pretty recently. 'Cum' is just an alternative spelling of 'come.' Plenty of people write the sexual meaning with the spelling 'come.'

And, anyway, the reason it's 'come' in English and いく in Japanese is because in English when we are talking to someone away from us we use the word 'come' to say that we will go near them: "I'll come over there and help you when I'm finished here." But in Japanese you would use the word いく.

Obviously, using 'come' and いく for climax derives from a metaphorical use of the words. And it reflects the way 'come' and くる and 'go' and いく are used differently.

(One of my friend's recently said he was sleeping with a Japanese person who said 'I'm going, I'm going' in English at climax. I joked and said he should try saying くる くる the next them they have sex.)

(Ah, and the そう in いきそう is the 'guessing an outcome' kind of そう. Like 雨が降りそう 'It looks like it's going to rain.' So いきそう is just 'I feel like I'm going to come.')

This has been a Tzadeck language lesson...

行く and 来る still get me sometimes. Just the other day someone said (on the phone) すぐ行く to mean "I'll be there soon" although at first it sounded to me like "I'll leave (wherever I am now) soon".

Quote:Kokoro, while being the name of the actual anatomical part that pumps blood

I don't think kokoro is used for that meaning; I've only heard 心臓 for the anatomy part.

(EDIT: Koujien says that the word may have derived from something having to do with the internal organs of animals. But historically Japan has not viewed the actual heart organ as being the seat of feelings the way Western culture has.)

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Quote:Kokoro, while being the name of the actual anatomical part that pumps blood

I don't think kokoro is used for that meaning; I've only heard 心臓 for the anatomy part.

(EDIT: Koujien says that the word may have derived from something having to do with the internal organs of animals. But historically Japan has not viewed the actual heart organ as being the seat of feelings the way Western culture has.)

I don't think the concept [heart organ = source of feelings] is completely foreign to Japanese (after all, 心 is a pictogram of the heart organ and someone along the way thought to associate that with the kun-yomi こころ), but I agree that rarely, if ever, is the word こころ used to refer to the internal organ in modern Japanese.

[Zgarbas]

eslang Wrote:If I may ask... what are these 3 different countries being referred to? For privacy's sake, it may not be appropriate to reply here. I can understand and respect that... so it isn't necessary to reply if it might compromise your privacy in some sense.

I actually for the life of me can't remember the 3 countries same word thing. It's a bit embarassing, really. I know it was something about Romanian, Spanish and Italian (probably; we kinda have a lot of the same words) but for some reason I don't remember what exactly I was talking about there. (and sure, it's a free Internet world, stick around. Though I don't really think there's anything interesting there =/). Also, for the record, after actually studying some linguistics I realized that I dislike it . Awesome in theory, oh-so-boring in application; for me at least.

eslang Wrote:No clue about how and when the Japanese language was being perceived as "gargantuan" cultural gap in this thread. However, I think it is just different, and to think otherwise is sort of being foolish/silly/romanticism/fantasy/whatever.....

Probably, some of it may be due to some myth or "category" created by the views of The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) of the US Department of State and/or The Defense Language Aptitude Battery (DLAB) is a test used by the United States Department of Defense. :lol: Hmm... maybe there are many Americans using this site? さあね。

I hyperbolize a lot to explain a point . Cultural gaps and difference exist between all cultures and languages (even amongst the same culture, as seen in regional differences within some countries, while we're at it). If it's to be considered important enough of a gap to be an impediment towards learning I think I can call it a gargantuan gap. How much of it is a real gap and how much is a preconceived notion that got carried around and extrapolated by people with little understanding and/or wish to perpetuate an image of the language's difficulty is hard to say, but imho it's more image and fear(for lack of a better term) of the unknown that helps. Hiragana seems unfathomably hard to someone who does not know anything about Japanese, and I had lots of colleagues at Uni drop out because they couldn't get the hang of kana. Then there's the thousand characters and what not, which are of course a bit hard but will seem infinite of a chore to someone who has not done his research and/or actually studied them. It's why people are always impressed when they see me reading Japanese in the bus/train, I guess. Even if I tell them it's a kid's book, ergo nothing impressive.
Sure, it's all anecdotal here, but I've met many would-be learners that were just too frightened of the language thanks to the multiple "it's hard" "no one ever gets native level unless they're Japanese" "it takes 10 years just to learn how to write" "you have to rethink everything about the world to get it" etc. ideas which I've heard numerous people hear, repeat, perpetuate and enhance, without even having a look at the language in order to disprove these concepts. It's hard to judge N1 level when you're at N4 and you're just going to believe whatever anyone says about it. So when our teacher says we need 5 years to get to N2 level and we shouldn't even bother without going to Japan and we should listen to everything she says cause she lived there for a while, the other students all agree, thus blocking their own learning process thanks to an elitism-induced status quo. That always makes me sad, for some reason. (probably cause I totally did that too, for a few years). Maybe I'm just too touchy about these things and am giving them too much importance. Probably am. Still irks me, though.

Of course, the discussion was not started to discuss something this basic, but it's keeping the preconceived notion and taking it to a higher level, imho. There's little that sheer exposure and habitual use cannot solve, no matter how scary of an impediment it may seem.

eslang Wrote:... which reminded me of this interesting conversation between an American and a Japanese anthropologist, a few years ago. They were talking about what a Japanese person might tend to say during a sex climax. The Japanese person says "Iki sou! Iku iku!!" however the American goes "I'm gonna come! / I'm coming!!". 面白いでしょ。　Wondering how it goes in other languages.

I think "I am coming" is actually the common way to say it. We have the equivalent of "I'm unloading my burden", though.

I totally don't know how to respond to the rest of the post, so that's about it. Thank you for your input .

turvy Wrote:Nope, Zgarbas did. But I think the point was something like the barrier between Spanish and English is just a little fence compared to the brick wall between English and Japanese.

Kept pushing it cause it's mentioned in the first post, actually. Ah well, nevermind that.