Hey folks,

Not sure if the title offends someone and if so, I apologise, but I have a very abnormal problem. I soon turn 19, I'm 186cm tall and weigh only 58kg. According to the BMI I'm aneurexic, but my doctor says I'm healthy and just the 'slim type', so to speak, which pisses me off, seeing other guys in my age just weighing much more (about 75kg+, also being as tall as me). Having said this, I'm not complaining about my body or my physical attributes. I like my body as it is, and I know other's like as well.. the point is simply, that I'm too bony. I go swimming once in two weeks perhaps and ride my bicycle almost every day (about 12km).

I want to be vegetarian. I discovered this to make me feel very light somehow. I struggle to eat regularly, though... Please, can someone advise me a weekly eating-plan for a vegetarian? Please keep in mind that I live in Germany, and therefore cannot efford to buy Japanese products such as miso.

I can imagine it's easier to gain weight than to lose it, if you are not a very physically active person and spend more time reading and playing the piano for example. (Playing the piano requires power, too; don't underestimate it haha.)

I rely once again on your helpful advise! Thanks for reading

Only advice I can offer is advice you don't want. It involves eating more protein a day (equivalent to a gallon of milk) and lifting heavy weights (85% your maximum), 5 times for 3 sets, about 4 to 5 times a week. You're human so you need protein. Lifting heavy forces muscle to grow which makes you stronger and heavier.

Nukemarine Wrote:Only advice I can offer is advice you don't want.

Just because I said I deny eating meat, it does not mean, I don't want to listen to your advise, saying I need to increase the amount or protein... I am persuaded people on this board here being vegetarian can confirm that a vegetarian diet can make you "strong", too.

I didn't understand the part about lifting weights. I have a 4kg dumbbell here which I lift a few times in the morning...

Eating
Sleeping
Exercise

In that order. I'd say 4-5 times of lifting weights is a bit extreme, 3 should be plenty. Muscle grows when you rest. Use free weights from the beginning, moves that utilize large muscle groups are the best (squats and deadlifts are THE best exercises and you should always do one (not both) when you go to gym). ALWAYS keep on adding more weight or otherwise trying to improve your results. For your muscles to grow you MUST keep putting them under more stress than they can handle, making them grow to keep up. 4 kg dumbbells aren't good for anything.

You will gain some fat during the process. That is expected and not an issue in the slightest.

Eating 'right' will net you the best results- however, eating whatever you want will still get you results. Protein are the building blocks for your muscle. Do not neglect fat (low-fat mantra is bullshit). Avoid sugar, soda etc.

If getting the necessary calories is too difficult, you can eat nuts, ice cream, low-sugar chocolate, etc. which contain a lot of calories and nutrients. Olive oil is a good source of fat. (Necessary calories = around +500kcal more than you consume, per day. That way you will gain around 2kg a month. In your case going over +500kcal is also alright, even up to +1500kcal).

You can easily go up to 90kg and then reverse (to lose the fat you gained while preserving the muscle). I would advise not going below 80kg at any time if possible. I myself am 192cm and weigh 88kg which is pretty much perfect (if we only look at BMI), give or take 5 kilos.

Nukemarine Wrote:Only advice I can offer is advice you don't want. It involves eating more protein a day (equivalent to a gallon of milk) and lifting heavy weights (85% your maximum), 5 times for 3 sets, about 4 to 5 times a week. You're human so you need protein. Lifting heavy forces muscle to grow which makes you stronger and heavier.

This. Though I'd say 3 times a week is enough (rest is important like said above). I'm a skin type, only time I gained weight was when I lifted.
Also, since you ride a bike everyday, that's some cardio, so if you want to gain weight despite that, you'll have to eat more. Legumes (lentils, chickpeas, butterbeans...) contain protein so if you add some (100g) to your meals, that should speed up the process.

恥ずかしながら、To be honest 4kg are already pretty.. heavy for me, I have to admit.
I lift the dumbbell with one arm like 20 times, then I feel like my arm's dead and I change to the left arm. I do that for 5 minutes in the morning and then in the night before going to bed. (please don't lol xD)

I could not lift something like 10kg. I'm pretty skinny and you might say weak, yeah. I never really was eager about sports and felt fine with reading books and playings really hours and hours on my piano, but I realise I have to build muscles somehow as long as I'm still young (at least I still feel like it) as I'm having back problems already now. (オヤジ)

Not sure if the high values of testosterone in my blood according to a recent blood analysis might be helpful in my new aim?

Tori-kun Wrote:恥ずかしながら、To be honest 4kg are already pretty.. heavy for me, I have to admit.
I lift the dumbbell with one arm like 20 times, then I feel like my arm's dead and I change to the left arm. I do that for 5 minutes in the morning and then in the night before going to bed. (please don't lol xD)

I could not lift something like 10kg. I'm pretty skinny and you might say weak, yeah. I never really was eager about sports and felt fine with reading books and playings really hours and hours on my piano, but I realise I have to build muscles somehow as long as I'm still young (at least I still feel like it) as I'm having back problems already now. (オヤジ)

Not sure if the high values of testosterone in my blood according to a recent blood analysis might be helpful in my new aim?

It doesn't matter what 4kg feels like right now. Your muscles will adjust (and quite fast too, considering you're just starting to lift) and then you need to add more weight. If you don't, your muscles have no reason to grow because they have gotten used to the same weights used every time.

4kg dumbbells aren't useless because they're not heavy enough. That's not the point. The point is that 4kg isn't going to last long for you. I myself have thin arms and started with 5kg dumbbells, and now I'm up to 9kg.

Granted, exercising won't do much if you don't eat enough and don't let your muscles rest. But exercising is still important to do right. You need to force your muscles to adapt to heavier and heavier weights (which they do at night during your sleep, using all the excess nutrients as the building blocks).

Don't just train one muscle group. Train all the big muscle groups. That will make the process much more efficient. Don't be afraid of your back, chest and legs growing along with your arms. You won't become Schwarzenegger.

I'm not afraid of becoming Schwarzenegger. That's not my aim. I used to play piano like 5 hours a day until I could play that piece I wanted to play. Not much physical power was needed, but patience.

I'm not sure how long I should do the exercise and when to stop. With my patience I could force myself even if I felt like stopping, because I do feel like my arms fall off or so...

Thanks for your advise, Betelgeuzah. Any concrete eating-plans available on the net for - preferrably - vegetarians? Could not find anything

[Edit]
I'm not allergic/intolerant against milk but I just don't like drinking it. I'm full conscious of the fact that it contains most proteins. I have been thinking of getting protein powder at the chemist to boost up the kcal.

Tori-kun Wrote:I'm not sure how long I should do the exercise and when to stop. With my patience I could force myself even if I felt like stopping, because I do feel like my arms fall off or so...

Thanks for your advise, Betelgeuzah. Any concrete eating-plans available on the net for - preferrably - vegetarians? Could not find anything

2-3 sets with 8-12 repetitions in each with 1-3min rests in-between. Keeping the correct posture is most important. If you can handle that with the weights you're using, next time add more weight. When you can't add more weight, add something else (one more set, 3 more reps per set etc.) to keep making progress. Also consider going back to weights from previous week and hopefully improving past your previous limit. Always go beyond your comfort zone, while still allowing yourself to complete the exercise properly. Allow your muscles to rest for at least a day before repeating the exercise.

I wouldn't go over 4 sets and 15 reps (when it comes to arms). With other muscle groups like legs and back 6-8 reps is enough. Remember: if you can go on for longer, you need to add heavier weights until you no longer can not. Don't add too much weight at once even though you could- keep adding more weights little by little.

I don't have much else advise in regards to eating, since I'm as carnivore as they come. Meat, chicken and fish are very good for gaining muscle and strength.

Consider buying supplements which contain protein (milk's protein is good, but is not the best protein out there).

eat heaps of:
whole grain pasta
whole grain bread (with peanut butter or avocado)
bananas
carrots
potatoes
sweet potatoes
natto (if you can get it in Germany)
tofu
soy milk

these foods are all relatively cheap and easy to prepare and have plenty of calories. You don't need to eat a lot of protein to gain weight, look at a gorilla or an elephant.

For exercise, do lots of push ups, keeping your entire body rigid and touching your nose to the ground. You can vary the difficulty, by:
raising your legs
doing them with one arm
launching yourself into the air (and clapping mid-air)
doing them super slow motion
doing them super fast
widening or narrowing the hand placement
moving the hands close to your hips or extending them in front of your head
holding your self up on your fingers
randomizing your hand position
rotating your hands
doing them in reverse (ie face up)

Also try doing one leg squats and hand stands, yoga etc.

these kind of exercises use most of your body at the same time so they are more efficient and allow your muscles to grow in more natural proportions.

Also don't worry about quantity, just try to constantly up the difficulty level. 5-10 minutes a day should be more than enough.

Do P90x. That'll put a lot of muscle on you.

Some results from people:

To get protein as a vegetarian, it is important to get all the different types of essential amino acids. You can goggle for complete protein to find several guides, but the basic rule is to mix a grain and a legume. For some examples: pita and hummus, pasta with beans, beans and cornbread (not sure if you can find that in Germany...).

You don't need to eat them together at every meal (which used to be the belief), just over the course of a day is fine.

As an aside, Bill Pearl was a bodybuilder that went vegetarian and still managed to win Mr. Universe and other awards afterwards.

I don't think you need to go crazy on the protein. Muscles are only about 15% protein, and I've seen a study or two suggesting it doesn't help very much. Eating too much pickles your liver, and plant proteins have their own disadvantages, especially grains and soy. Leucine helps protein synthesis though, so whey protein is a good option.

The idea that loads of carbs are necessary is a myth too. Enough to keep glycogen topped up covers it. Schwarzenegger recommended limiting carbs to 60-100g a day. This is a good range for minimising blood sugar/insulin spikes. If you eat more than you can use, it gets converted to saturated fat anyway, but in a process involving a lot more toxicity than just eating the butter or coconut oil directly. The best thing for growth is hormones (produced by intermittent training) and calories.

If you have good guts, fibre is actually a great source of calories for vegetarians. Gorillas get something like 60% of their calories from fat in the form of SCFAs produced by bacteria in their colon. Apparently vegetarians can get as much as 20% this way. It really depends on your gut flora though. If you're naturally skinny, then it may be playing a role in this, like it can in obese people too.

I don't know whether to suggest eating more fat because of all the sources of PUFAs in a vegetarian diet. If you eat the wrong foods, don't get the balance right or have a defective metabolism then saturated fat is dangerous, which is probably why it's been demonised. Otherwise it's great for growth and your mitochondria love the stuff.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, so I will.

You might want to consider joining a gym and starting a basic weight lifting program. A good program will instruct you on basically everything, including what to eat, when to workout, how many times a week, what exercises you should be doing, how many sets/reps, how much weight, etc.

One program that's popular on the internet is "Starting Strength". Google it and you will find out a lot of information.

Getting on a good beginner's program when you're just starting to work out is akin to using RTK when you're just starting to learn Japanese. (Am I going to get flamed for using this analogy?)

edit: Oh yeah, eating. A good program will talk about this, but in order to gain wait you have to eat more calories than your body is consuming. It's simple. (But for some people really hard to actually do.)

OK, I'll go out on a limb: try whey protein shakes, mixed with water if you don't like drinking milk. Unnatural, yes, but effective, cheaper and less time-consuming than a vegetarian high-protein diet.

Lift weights three times a week, don't stress over adding too much weight too quickly (your muscles adjust much more quickly than your joints and ligaments), and you'll put on muscle eventually. I found that I had to add protein when I was working out at the gym because otherwise I would feel extremely tired the next day, but the protein shakes solved that problem.

And don't stress out over it. You're skinny, but you can get great muscle definition, and once you can afford them, those Italian suits will look awesome on you

Also see the upside: you might be a genetically gifted long-distance runner.

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

Thank you for all your replies!!!! I will try my best T_T

Irixmark Wrote:Also see the upside: you might be a genetically gifted long-distance runner.

I hate running lol I like swimming and hiking, otherwise, I'm pretty lazy..

Tori, you might also want to read about vegetarianism and vitamin B12 and make sure you're getting enough. You'll want the energy for your workouts.

Here's my experience. Some earlier comments by Javizy and Fillanzea made me curious about vitamin D. I don't drink milk. I also wear sunscreen everyday (after years of burning-blistering-peeling while boating and skiing.) I wondered if I was getting ANY vitamin D. I finally got around to getting checked and discovered that I was very low in vitamin B12 and iron as well. (I've always had a healthful diet (or so I thought), but I never paid much attention to the details.)

I now take supplements and added certain foods to my diet. I've noticed a real difference in my energy level. I had just assumed I was naturally getting weaker as I age and do fewer sports, but I suspect it was somehow related to one of those deficiencies. [Not sure if] vitamin D [is related to energy, but it] seems to be needed for a variety of things: endocrine and hormones, strong bones, etc. (Javizy and Fillanzea, thank you.) :-)

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Good luck to you, sir.

I am also 186cm and 75kg (otherwise known to me as 165lb) and am already pretty slim. Can't imagine how you look because of us being the same height and such a huge weight difference. I don't necessarily put too much focus on protein but I usually hover around this weight all the time. I don't feel like I'm doing anything different than you that would make sense when it comes to why I weight much more than you. I do work out sometimes but before I worked out I was the same weight so I don't think it's a factor. Yes I know some muscle may have been traded for fat but not so much that it would make sense for the huge gap in our weights.

Dunno man. Yeah, eat more protein and work out. Being too skinny is kind of gross, you know? Not trying to insult you just... try to eat more!

Thora Wrote:I now take supplements and added certain foods to my diet. I've noticed a real difference in my energy level. I had just assumed I was naturally getting weaker as I age and do fewer sports, but I suspect it was somehow related to one of those deficiencies. [Not sure if] vitamin D [is related to energy, but it] seems to be needed for a variety of things: endocrine and hormones, strong bones, etc. (Javizy and Fillanzea, thank you.) :-)

I'm glad someone could benefit from my ramblings. Vitamin K2 is another one for veggies to watch out for. Natto is a good source (I believe it contains B12 too). You should have gleaming teeth with good D and K2 status. I had to see it to believe it though.

This ex-vegan girl has a great post for vegans. I've been wondering how you guys manage omega-3/6 balance. Vegetable oils are evil

PS Guyenet's blog (WHS) is awesome. It'll challenge everything you think you know about nutrition and health.

PPS Guys should be careful with iron supps. They don't have the same "regulatory" mechanism as women.

Javizy Wrote:

Thora Wrote:I now take supplements and added certain foods to my diet. I've noticed a real difference in my energy level. I had just assumed I was naturally getting weaker as I age and do fewer sports, but I suspect it was somehow related to one of those deficiencies. [Not sure if] vitamin D [is related to energy, but it] seems to be needed for a variety of things: endocrine and hormones, strong bones, etc. (Javizy and Fillanzea, thank you.) :-)

I'm glad someone could benefit from my ramblings. Vitamin K2 is another one for veggies to watch out for. Natto is a good source (I believe it contains B12 too). You should have gleaming teeth with good D and K2 status. I had to see it to believe it though.

This ex-vegan girl has a great post for vegans. I've been wondering how you guys manage omega-3/6 balance. Vegetable oils are evil

PS Guyenet's blog (WHS) is awesome. It'll challenge everything you think you know about nutrition and health.

PPS Guys should be careful with iron supps. They don't have the same "regulatory" mechanism as women.

For omega-3, buy some "flaxseed meal". If you can, buy organic. I dump some flaxseed meal in my cereal every morning :-)

If you need protein, there is one food used for a secret (ok not secret, but I just wanted add some suspense) that many bodybuilders know about.

It's cottage cheese.

Cottage cheese is known as "the healthy cheese" and is a fundamentally different food from most cheeses because of the way it is made.

It is RIDICULOUSLY high in protein(look at the label), REALLY low in calories/fat/carbs and if you're picky, it'll be low in sodium. All other cheeses are almost the complete opposite.

So what is the secret trick?

Cottage cheese is packed with one of the slowest digesting proteins.

When you sleep, your body eventually goes into a protein deficit and loses some muscle by morning. The protein in cottage cheese digests so slowly that it'll supply your body with protein for most of the night and you won't lose much (or any) muscle by morning.

So bodybuilders often eat cottage cheese RIGHT BEFORE going to sleep.

NOTE: if you're looking for the most protein-packed cottage cheese, I just found one called "Friendship Fit to Go 1% milkfat small curd". It has 110 calories,20 grams of protein (40% DV!), and 1.5 grams of fat. An egg has 70 calories, 6-7 grams of protein and 5 grams of fat. So that one serving of friendship fit to go 1% cottage cheese has as much protein as 3 eggs (in half the calories and 1/10th the fat). That's pretty insane.

Tori-kun Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:Only advice I can offer is advice you don't want.

Just because I said I deny eating meat, it does not mean, I don't want to listen to your advise, saying I need to increase the amount or protein... I am persuaded people on this board here being vegetarian can confirm that a vegetarian diet can make you "strong", too.

I didn't understand the part about lifting weights. I have a 4kg dumbbell here which I lift a few times in the morning...

Late reply so I'll try not to repeat what others said. Partner mentioned "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe, which is the book/tactics I was referencing. It's a good read and his advice just makes sense. It clicked for me as much as Heisig clicked on a strategy I could use.

In the book, Rippetoe explains the differences and benefits for lifting heavy weights a few reps and lifting light reps for many reps. He stresses five major lifts: Squats (Fabrice mentioned these), Deadlifts, Bench press, Standing press and the Clean (a power exercise). I would add in weighted pull-ups. These are all compound lifts that affect nearly every system in your body.

As others said, you don't get stronger from lifting weights. You get stronger recovering from lifting weights. That means you have to put your body and muscles under stress that is near the max it is able to handle. In addition, repairing this damage is the reason you need a good diet that's 30-30-40 of lean protein, good fats and good carbs.

Anyway, glad to know you're open to suggestions. Hope it works out for you.