Also, avocados have lots of calories.
Nuts are fatty.
Coconut milk is REALLY fatty and yet, thai people are skinny.

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Tori-kun Wrote:(...) I'm going through this diet not for the sake of animals, but rather for the sake of my health. It's not a "pity-diet". A nice side effect is that I feel somehow lighter, yet still have power.

I totally get that, and I do myself like to limit the meat, especially the red meat. The best I ever felt was with the food in Japan, smaller but more filling meals.

I come across as anti-vegetarian but that was not my intention at all. I just have a bad habit of arguing against what I see as idealistic notions versus practicality. And in this discussion I'm not concerned about vegetarianism in general, but only about how you can achieve the goal of adding some serious weight taking in consideration the amont of proteins required, the time it takes to prepare meals, etc.

Anyway, good luck. You can certainly do it if you put your mind to it

chamcham Wrote:

dizmox Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:You can lift women while having sex. It's part of the reason why they find strong men sexy. :-)

I just decided to get a skinny girlfriend instead of going through the hassle of working out.

If you're a strong man, you can twirl that skinny girlfriend around like a baton....and a few more things.... ;-)

What if I want to be twirled? ;_;

Tori-kun Wrote:I'm getting pretty confused with all these studies. It's not only an American university, but other universities coming to (almost) the same conclusion: a vegetarian diet is healthier. I'm going through this diet not for the sake of animals, but rather for the sake of my health. It's not a "pity-diet". A nice side effect is that I feel somehow lighter, yet still have power.

If you believe that study that came out a couple of months ago you have to believe bacon and hot dogs are the same as good cuts of beef and lamb steaks. I read this post around the time: The Meaty Gritty on the Red Meat Debate. It gives a good review of some research on meat.

If you wonder why fat has a bad reputation in the first place, you should read about the lipid hypothesis. If you see the original research done by Keys, you'll wonder how the hell it ever took off though. Here's some analysis of Keys' "science" if you're interested. That guy points out a lot of the horrors of lipid research if you read his posts. Or you could watch this short video about it instead.

My view is that if there's no physiological evidence to the contrary, traditional cultures are a better guide to what's safe to consume than the mortality of metabolically dysfunctional Westerners who eat their meat full of nitrites or covered in omega-6-laden grease between processed wheat flour. Observational studies have their merits, but they have to be taken with a Western-sized pinch of salt.

I feel like I should at least mention this guy:
http://scoobysworkshop.com/vegetarianism/

He knows a lot about bodybuilding and many people have successfully used his methods.

@Javizy: I'm honestly confused. I got a leaflet once here on the street by a vegan association and the doctor who wrote in that leaflet said it's the healthiest diet. Now I'm reading the study you linked me to and I, frankly said, do not know whose words to believe
Anyway, for the factor of feeling light and vital, I would deny eating meat already. I feel much more relaxed somehow...

@Fabrice: Thanks for your tips I will try my best. *Checking weight* Got 1kg fatter in a day! (It's 9pm here now) My metabolism is very strange. What I ate today?

Breakfast:
1) Curd (200g) with a bit of milk and cream
2) Hazelnuts (10 or so)
3) Raisins (approx. 10)
4) Ginger tea
5) 2 loaves of cornbread with nougat creme

Lunch:
1) Veggie mediteran burger patty (containing corn, tomatoes, pepper, soja, toufu, tapioka)
2) 4 toasts
3) Ginger ale (getting into detail here lol)

Supper:
1) Omelette (containing 8 table spoons milk and 4 eggs with salt, pepper and flavour)
2) 3 toasts
3) Ginger ale
4) Snack

Throughout the day I drank ~2 litres of water. I hope the 1kg I gained will be still there tomorrow morning =_=

Ouch. 4 eggs. Watch that cholesterol.
Here is an article from the Mayo Clinic ( http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cholesterol/HQ00608)

Also, if possible, get rid of all that toast.

If not, add some peanut butter. It is easy to
make your own peanut butter. Just mix peanuts
and olive oil in a blender or food processor.

Actually you use any kind of nut (for example, pistachio).

Tori-kun Wrote:@Javizy: I'm honestly confused. I got a leaflet once here on the street by a vegan association and the doctor who wrote in that leaflet said it's the healthiest diet. Now I'm reading the study you linked me to and I, frankly said, do not know whose words to believe
Anyway, for the factor of feeling light and vital, I would deny eating meat already. I feel much more relaxed somehow...

Neither are wrong as long as they avoid superlatives. Like I said, we're perfectly healthy eating a diverse range of diets. If there's one thing we do know that kills, it's a Western diet, so distancing yourself from processed foods like refined sugars, flours and vegetable oils and affronts to nature like Quorn are probably a good way to stay healthy, whether your diet contains meat or not or matches a specific set of macronutrient ratios.

I want you to eat what you want. If meat doesn't agree with you, then don't eat it. I'm just trying to tell you to be critical of research that goes against what healthy traditions have taught us. Just eat food that you can enjoy and don't worry so much about the details. Good luck with the muscles anyway.

chamcham Wrote:Ouch. 4 eggs. Watch that cholesterol.

Come on. People don't still believe eggs are bad for them do they? I'd be more worried about the PUFAs in your peanut butter.

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Okay a simple tip is try to go for four meals a day.

You can't look at the weight from one day to the next. It moves a lot. For example you will be heavier in the evening than morning.

One night after my workout I saw no gain, two nights after the workout this was a day where I was usually super hungry, and would see 1-1.5 kg extra over the previous evening. Three nights later much of it that was stocked by the body as a "security" is dropped. So instead you look at the end of the week, average out. See if the minimum weight increases from one week to the next, that's a better measure.

Drinks don't matter. However alcohol works against you. I don't know why. I wouldn't drink alcohol regularly if you want to gain weight (we're talking about muscle gain here, not the beer belly).

As an example: Breakfast seems ok, but 3), 4) are irrelevant to weight gain. As is 2) in Lunch, and 3) in Supper. There may be a bit of sugar in those but that's empty calories for the most part.

Just at a glance this seems low in calorie I'm afraid. I would be super hungry now with that lunch and supper. I know those burgers I like them but you'd have to add like, bunch of potatoes, tall glass of milk instead of alcohol, peanut butter on the toasts.

I forgot that one lol, peanut butter. See that's where I made compromises. Yes there is fat, and not always healthy (get the good brands, or from health store), but it's so easy and it doesn't take tons of space.

Another example is whenever you eat two slices of bread, make it four! o_O If it doesn't go down, you take a bit, and drink milk, take a bit, rinse repeat.

No it's not fun. Your body is not accustomed to it, your stomach says "I don't need", and you force it down.

Here is something from a typical day in 2003:

16h30 (lol I was playing Diablo till 9 am I guess) Multivitamin, 3 eggs 2 slices of bread (I imagine it was an omelette)

18h30 2 slice Bread, 1 slice Gouda, Mayonaise (I'd guess at least 300 calories)

21h00 42grams of dry raisins, energy because I was doing some Wing Chun then, on the way home one Coca Cola;

22h30 Potatoes, Carots (not for weight gain, just decoration), Chicken (one large chicken breast I imagine)

2am ~120g pasta

Later still: Milk


Other typical meals I made:
- Potatoes, 2x100g (two filets) of "Colin" (cheap, but nourishing white fish filets), carots
- 120g pasta + grated cheese (guessing that was "au naturel" pasta with grated cheese) Can never go wrong with pasta or rice, but you need the proteins too.
- 150g Tuna Can + Mayonaise + 1 slice bread (here it isn't a pleasure meal, it's a meal to add calories and good proteins, the tuna is without oil, I add Mayo to make it easier to swallow).

So yes, you do eat even if you are not hungry.

This was then, in 2003. I'm sure there are more healthy ways to do it still.

The key here is that once I have made a rough estimation of how much (slice bread + gouda + mayo) was worth in calories and protein/fat ratio, then it was much simpler later I simply made sure to have 4 to 5 meals throughout the day and could get an estimate of the min. protein intake.

Milk obviously is very easy: you can easily drink one full carton per day by splitting accross the day. Say it's semi-skimmed milk, you will have an extra ~ 470 kcal, 35 g prots, 48g glucids, 16 g fat. That's pretty healhty and super simple. Put some in breakfast porridge, make a warm one with honey in the evening if it's cold, use it for milkshake with banana before workout...

@Fabrice:

Quote:Drinks don't matter. However alcohol works against you. I don't know why. I wouldn't drink alcohol regularly if you want to gain weight (we're talking about muscle gain here, not the beer belly).

This. I'm drinking alcohol quite regularly, I have to admit. You made me realise that I'm slightly addicted to it haha Joke aside, I have to drink a lot of alcohol to get into the range of "being tipsy" (that's why my evenings at bars turn out to be super expensive lol) like my friends in my age (who weigh ways more than I do!). It's a mystery to me. Kind of off-topic, but another proof for my alien metabolism perhaps. Maybe I have two livers and my doctor hasn't found it just yet?
Thanks for the note, though. I will try not to drink. Really.

The banana shake! Yep, we have a food processor and this is the only way I could drink milk like water. I don't like milk as-is, but with vanilla/banana flavour, it would be ok, I think. What do you think of additional protein powder? I checked at the drugstore today and it's effordable.

Hm, I would not be able to eat according to your eating schedule, Fabrice, though I would try. Especially the part where you think you are full and if you eat another leaf you will vomit - you have to eat it, is the part I want to try out by myself

Peanut butter has trans fats. One website says that 1bsp = 90 calories, including 8g of fat. That's a lot for one tiny tablespoon.

I doubt that the cholesterol in eggs is significant if you're not overweight.

For proteins shakes, be careful that they're not toxic. See http://news.injuryboard.com/consumer-rep...eid=281896 and http://scoobysworkshop.com/protein-powder/

Eikyu Wrote:Peanut butter has trans fats. One website says that 1bsp = 90 calories, including 8g of fat. That's a lot for one tiny tablespoon.

I doubt that the cholesterol in eggs is significant if you're not overweight.

For proteins shakes, be careful that they're not toxic. See http://news.injuryboard.com/consumer-rep...eid=281896 and http://scoobysworkshop.com/protein-powder/

Natural peanut butter does not contain trans fat.
That's why I recommended making your own peanut butter at home.
It's really easy.

The trans fat is from partially hydrogenated oils added by commercial companies.

From Wikipedia:

"Some brands of peanut butter may contain a small amount of added partially hydrogenated vegetable oils, which are high in trans fatty acids, thought to be a cause of atherosclerosis, coronary heart disease, and stroke; these oils are added to prevent the peanut oil from separating. Natural peanut butter and peanuts do not contain partially hydrogenated oils. A U.S. Agricultural Research Service (ARS) survey of commercial peanut butters in the U.S. showed the presence of trans fat, but at very low levels."

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Seriously if you read all those articles you'll never eat anything. o_O

I do avoid the hydrogenated oils, but only because I hate cheap. I dislike the whole mindset of putting monetary gain before people's wellbeing. Screw these guys, as a customer at least I can make a statement with what I buy. That rules out quite a bit of products from the supermarket and conveniently they turn out to be the kind of food I wouldn't want to eat anyway.

Situation may not be as bad in EU as US. Some supermarkets have peanut butter without hydrogenated oil, if they store more than one brand. And of course the health/"bio" store as we call them.

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Tori-kun Wrote:Hm, I would not be able to eat according to your eating schedule

Remember: if you exercise like Iron Man, and you don't eat enough, as a thin guy, you actually put all that effort to waste. :/ I'd say actually eating the extra calories and proteins every day is probably going to be far more effective for you than the exercise.

And I'll admit, it may be that you can focus entirely on the extra meals, and be able to add weight through less strenuous exercises like running or pushups and stuff. I doubt you will gain 2 kg per month but you may be able to gain steadily. But we're talking a real increased cost in your monthly food bill here. That's why I don't actually do it myself now. When I do my pushups here I am always more hungry the next day, but I don't gain weight, because I don't consistently add the calories. Just when I'm hungry. It would cost me another 30 € per month or so, and I'm not really motivated to get to 80+ kg.

Adding the calories is the key. The body is intelligent and if it isn't able to store some reserves, it is not going to invest in more muscle mass, because it would put itself in danger. That reserve is what you need to gain weight, it's not the goal itself, it's just the "signal" for your body to gain. And as a thin guy you will burn the reserve quickly, so you must add to it regularly, which means eating more than you are accustomed to.

I used to be 20-30 pounds behind what I should be. Then, I started becoming active. I am now active for usually 1.5 hours a day. This has made me hungrier than normal, and for some strange reason, I started gaining weight.

Just my story, I don't now how it'l work for you if you try it.

I used to have the same problem described in this thread when
i was in college. I used to eat huge bowls of pasta and i never got
fat. My friends thought i was a freak and wish they had my genes.... :-p

Now that I'm older, my metabolism has slowed down and now I'm trying to lose weight......lol....

Fabrice Wrote:Are you on an evangelizing mission? See you are just as stuck as I am in your way of thinking.

I'm not evangelizing, I'm just trying to indicate that you don't need to stack up meat/dairy to put on some weight. You know human breast milk only contains about 1gm of protein?Broccoli contains 2.8 gm, spinach 2.2gm, potatoes 2gm, onion 1gm (just to pick a few random vegetables). this link seems to verify that up 0-3gm of protein is pretty standard for most vegetables. The same link shows higher protein values for assorted beans and grains. Natto apparently contains 18gm per 100gm. My point is, there is a higher amount of protein in pretty much everything you'd want to eat than in human breast milk (which is made to grow a baby). People just don't need huge amounts of protein. Neither do other large herbivorous mammals like elephants, gorillas, hippos, giraffes etc.

chamcham Wrote:I used to have the same problem described in this thread when
i was in college. I used to eat huge bowls of pasta and i never got
fat. My friends thought i was a freak and wish they had my genes.... :-p

Now that I'm older, my metabolism has slowed down and now I'm trying to lose weight......lol....

This. Men tend to put on more weight after 30, it's fairly normal for a 19 year old to be skinny. Of course, if you really want to change your body then go for it. But you shouldn't feel that you need to as long as you're healthy.

Tofu!!! Lots and lots of yummy tofu!!!!! (i recommend advocado & pasta with soy sauce or furikake with it. Teriyaki tofu is also delicious, with pink pickled ginger)

@IceCream: I should have been more precise -- I'm *bony*. Really. Feel like being only bones 'n skin haha. Tofu has doomed me. I just don't know how to prepare it really, although I like it when it's done correctly in restaurants for example 8)

I did some streetmusic (four hours) with my accordion today and it's heavy (7kg or something like that). I feel like I'm dying lol My back hurts, too, but I guess that was the most intense workout I've ever did. With an additional financial bonus of 35€ yay.
I started to drink milk (morning: 300ml) and eating MORE nuts (up to know 15h30 about 300g).

Why does "lots and lots" of soy get recommended to a guy who's vegetarian on health grounds? Soy is chock full of anti-nutrients. Eating it in mainly fermented forms and reasonable amounts has worked well for the Japanese, but show me a culture that would sit down to a pound of tofu for dinner other than "healthy" Western vegetarians. All plants, especially ones high in protein, contain toxins and this is something that rarely gets pointed out during anti-meat preaching.

nadiatims Wrote:I'm not evangelizing, I'm just trying to indicate that you don't need to stack up meat/dairy to put on some weight. You know human breast milk only contains about 1gm of protein?Broccoli contains 2.8 gm, spinach 2.2gm, potatoes 2gm, onion 1gm (just to pick a few random vegetables). this link seems to verify that up 0-3gm of protein is pretty standard for most vegetables. The same link shows higher protein values for assorted beans and grains. Natto apparently contains 18gm per 100gm. My point is, there is a higher amount of protein in pretty much everything you'd want to eat than in human breast milk (which is made to grow a baby). People just don't need huge amounts of protein. Neither do other large herbivorous mammals like elephants, gorillas, hippos, giraffes etc.

Breast milk calories are 7% protein and over 50% fat (~25% saturated). Something tells me you'd set a double standard here about adults following breast milk ratios. Babies' brains consume calories at more than double the rate of an adult, so ~40% carbs isn't indicative of adult needs either.

Gorillas get 20% of their calories from protein. They also eat up to 50 pounds of vegetables a day and have massive colons, which is why they're able to get ~60% of their calories from fats produced by their gut flora. This means <20% comes from carbs, which is like a death sentence for the gluten-loving Western vegetarian.

If breast milk, gorillas and Arnold Schwarzenegger show us anything, it's probably that the key to growth is in fat. Coconut oil, palm oil, olive oil - these are surely the vegan body-builder's best friends. I agree with you about protein. I think 15-20% of calories is more than enough, even 10% if you don't want gains. Going over 150g/day is like putting your liver in a jar, but not quite adding the vinegar yet.

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nadiatims Wrote:People just don't need huge amounts of protein.

Yes, but we're talking about a 186cm man who is weighing < 60kg and toying with the idea of perhaps reaching 70-75kg. I was there. Even if he only aimed for 70kg, I know from having done it before, he's gonna need some serious surplus in proteins. 150 g / day seems overkill but 80-100g is reasonable.

Gaining 10 kg for an underweight man is like losing 10kg for a fat person. It's a real project. It's not easy. It takes time and it takes perseverance. You have to watch what you eat everyday. And he's not gonna gain anything unless he takes significantly more proteins than he now needs. It's simple maths. Right now he's not taking the amount of proteins or calories that a 75kg+ man is eating with minimal physical activity. Hence he needs at the very least that amount to trigger weight gain.

My message of encouragement to him was: I put more than 10kg on, and although I didn't believe they would stay without exercise, they did. That's pretty good news if like me, he isn't really that much into sports. So it means you work hard at it if the motivation is there, perhaps up to a year, but then the body is used to the new weight, and the weight will stay.

Javizy Wrote:Why does "lots and lots" of soy get recommended to a guy who's vegetarian on health grounds? Soy is chock full of anti-nutrients. Eating it in mainly fermented forms and reasonable amounts has worked well for the Japanese, but show me a culture that would sit down to a pound of tofu for dinner other than "healthy" Western vegetarians. All plants, especially ones high in protein, contain toxins and this is something that rarely gets pointed out during anti-meat preaching.

what's an anti-nutrient?
and i thought Tofu was fermented...?

I'm not suggesting he sits down and eats a block of the stuff on it's own lol.

i'm not a vegetarian btw, but Tofu really does taste good in stuff...

EDIT: wow, just looked this up... i had no idea. Well, i guess it's probably not too big a deal as part of a balanced diet, but maybe "lots and lots" would be going a bit far after all then lol.

Javizy, you seem to know a lot about this kind of stuff...!!! If you have any time at some point, if it's possible please could you make a post that would say what would be a good diet to get all the nutrients you need for a week and not eat harmful stuff, for someone who doesn't want to put on weight? It seems it's a lot more complex than i ever thought it could be...

IceCream Wrote:what's an anti-nutrient?
and i thought Tofu was fermented...?

I'm not suggesting he sits down and eats a block of the stuff on it's own lol.

i'm not a vegetarian btw, but Tofu really does taste good in stuff...

Phytates bind minerals and carry them out of the body. Grains and nuts are high in them too, but proper preparation, e.g. sprouting, fermenting etc, can reduce them a lot. Soy contains phyto-estrogens and goitrogens that can mess with hormones too. Apparently Japanese women get something like 10 times the RDA of iodine from sea vegetables, which can compensate for the effects of excess goitrogens on the thyroid. Not that they eat that much soy anyway. If you compare this to a veggie in the US waking up to soy milk and regularly eating large volumes of tofu and soy protein shaped into burgers and sausages, the "they eat it so it's fine" argument doesn't really hold, especially when you consider other problem aspects of their diet (iodine deficiency?).

I thought tofu was fermented too, but apparently not. Tempeh is fermented tofu. I had a nice tofu and crab soup in a Korean restaurant before and I like making マーボー豆腐 occasionally

ファブリス Wrote:150 g / day seems overkill but 80-100g is reasonable.

If do want some overkill, you could try out this Vince Gironda recipe. It has about 2000 calories with a 2:3 protein:fat ratio. He recommended eating 36 eggs a day.

1/3 cup protein powder
12 eggs
12oz raw cream

IceCream Wrote:wow, just looked this up... i had no idea. Well, i guess it's probably not too big a deal as part of a balanced diet, but maybe "lots and lots" would be going a bit far after all then lol.

Javizy, you seem to know a lot about this kind of stuff...!!! If you have any time at some point, if it's possible please could you make a post that would say what would be a good diet to get all the nutrients you need for a week and not eat harmful stuff, for someone who doesn't want to put on weight? It seems it's a lot more complex than i ever thought it could be...

It sounds bad, but I don't think you need to worry too much. Moderation is key, and if veggies rotate their protein sources, they won't be over-exposed to any one toxin. Remember that isolated chemicals are isolated chemicals and foods are complexes of all sorts of stuff that interact in different ways in your body.

As for "the healthiest diet" that's kind of like asking what the best religion is at the moment. There's a ton of research out there, but little conclusive. A reductive approach just isn't suited to nutrition. Traditional cultures who live healthily probably give the best guide, but you have people in the tropics who practically live on coconut oil, and the Kitavans who eat 70% of calories as starch and have 0 heart disease and obesity, despite high smoking rates. Do we eat high-fat or high-carb then? I don't know. Anything that isn't the Western diet seems to do the trick though.

After reading a lot of crappy books, I've actually found the best source to be blogs. A lot of talented scientists write some really informative stuff. The blog I recommended to Thora is my favourite http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/ If you look at his 'favourite links' on the right-hand side, there are a bunch of other good ones too. You can have fun learning a lot about food that still leaves you with little clue what to eat

Javizy Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:what's an anti-nutrient?
and i thought Tofu was fermented...?

I'm not suggesting he sits down and eats a block of the stuff on it's own lol.

i'm not a vegetarian btw, but Tofu really does taste good in stuff...

Phytates bind minerals and carry them out of the body. Grains and nuts are high in them too, but proper preparation, e.g. sprouting, fermenting etc, can reduce them a lot. Soy contains phyto-estrogens and goitrogens that can mess with hormones too. Apparently Japanese women get something like 10 times the RDA of iodine from sea vegetables, which can compensate for the effects of excess goitrogens on the thyroid. Not that they eat that much soy anyway. If you compare this to a veggie in the US waking up to soy milk and regularly eating large volumes of tofu and soy protein shaped into burgers and sausages, the "they eat it so it's fine" argument doesn't really hold, especially when you consider other problem aspects of their diet (iodine deficiency?).

I thought tofu was fermented too, but apparently not. Tempeh is fermented tofu. I had a nice tofu and crab soup in a Korean restaurant before and I like making マーボー豆腐 occasionally

You could just eat the "sea vegetables" that Japanese women eat, since it works for them. There are lots of asian supermarkets in the US.

In the US, iodine is usually added to salt to prevent iodine deficiencies.

From the wikipedia article for "iodised salt":

"Iodised salt (also spelled iodized salt) is table salt mixed with a minute amount of various iodine-containing salts. The ingestion of iodide prevents iodine deficiency. Worldwide, iodine deficiency affects about two billion people and is the leading preventable cause of mental retardation.[1] Deficiency also causes thyroid gland problems, including "endemic goitre". In many countries, iodine deficiency is a major public health problem that can be cheaply addressed by iodisation of salt.
"