Javizy Wrote:PPS Guys should be careful with iron supps. They don't have the same "regulatory" mechanism as women.

Oh, I see. I changed my post to just read B12.

I hadn't even heard of vitamin K2 before. I try to get my vitamins from food if possible; it's supposed to work better that way. Natto is gross, though, so I'll have to look into what other foods have it.

Thora Wrote:

Javizy Wrote:PPS Guys should be careful with iron supps. They don't have the same "regulatory" mechanism as women.

Oh, I see. I changed my post to just read B12.

I hadn't even heard of vitamin K2 before. I try to get my vitamins from food if possible; it's supposed to work better that way. Natto is gross, though, so I'll have to look into what other foods have it.

Not sure if there's been follow up studies, but a few years back I read that men who donate blood once every 6 weeks have similar health benefits as women that menstrate with relation to iron content.

By the way, there are Japanese grocery stores in Germany

http://www.justhungry.com/handbook/just-...pe/germany

I don't know if any are close to you.
Some are korean/Chinese markets that sell some Japanese products.

Check the amount of calories you are getting and if you have any problems like feeling weak or light-headed or whatever, consider increasing this.

Many people think they "need to get more protein" but high-protein food is also calorie-dense so they are just getting more calories.

chamcham Wrote:For omega-3, buy some "flaxseed meal". If you can, buy organic. I dump some flaxseed meal in my cereal every morning :-)

Omega-3 is super unstable, that's why it gets removed from processed foods and so many people are deficient. Pre-milled flaxseed would be rancid, so you need to grind it yourself. The conversion rate of ALA to DHA/EPA is terrible too (maybe as low as 5%), so you'd need to eat about a cupful to get the equivalent of like 10g of salmon. Probably more since it contains loads of omega-6 too. The more 6 in the diet, the less 3 that gets produced.

Nukemarine Wrote:Not sure if there's been follow up studies, but a few years back I read that men who donate blood once every 6 weeks have similar health benefits as women that menstrate with relation to iron content.

They said as much on ホンマでっか！？TV, and I doubt さんまさん would lead us astray.

@TheVinster: I am _really_ skinny/bony. And I don't feel insulted. I can eat 2kg of meat and in the next morning I still weigh the same. I guess I reached my weight's max. with 60kg a few months ago. I could not surpass that o_o

tori-kun

I used to be real skinny too with bmi as low as 16.9, now it's almost 20. The thing that worked for me was relaxing more, making sure I eat enough (and healthily) and doing a small amount of body weight training. I used to walk every where and have a really busy schedule. When I tried going to the gym multiple times a week to put on some weight it just gave me even less time to rest. 30 minutes to get there, 30 minutes back home, then I'd want to be there at least half an hour to get my money's worth. I also tried using protein powder (which tastes aweful btw). None of that worked. It just wasted money and time. I put on more weight since becoming a vegan and just exercising 10 minutes or so (probably less actually) at home.

@nadiatims: Signing up at a gym here costs a lot of money and I will probably not have time to go there regularly, even though I'm free of any duties now (no school, only part-time jobbing)...

I think you missed my point, I was saying that gym was a waste of time for me. You should exercise at home for short periods of time so that you don't exhaust yourself or waste your money and so you can get plenty of rest.

Also I suggest ignoring the general advice about about more protein and instead focus on getting plenty of healthy calories.

I'm 57kg and my dad used to say I should work out till I'm 75kg like other men, but that's crazy. Even if it were possible, I'd end up suffering body dysmorphia I think... I think my current body is perfect. But then again I'm only 5'8.5'' and I have no problems picking up reasonably heavy stuff.

Quote:I could not lift something like 10kg.

I'm sure you could if you tried, if not, I think if you do a few months of light weightlifting at home that should be cured, unless you have some odd medical condition... I don't think you'd even need to continue with it after that.

Not that I like weightlifting, I just see the utility of being able to pick up things around the house/garden/workplace.

Tori-kun Wrote:@nadiatims: Signing up at a gym here costs a lot of money and I will probably not have time to go there regularly, even though I'm free of any duties now (no school, only part-time jobbing)...

I've been using the bodyweight exercises in You Are Your Own Gym. There's an app for it that arranges the 10-week programs for you with timers and a workout history and stuff. It's really easy to get started and only costs something like £1.50. You only need to do 4 20-30 minute sessions a week to begin with. You could get quite a decent body with bodyweight exercises I think. Diet is more than half of it I'd say.

nadiatims makes an interesting point about relaxing too. I've always been skinny, and I used to be stressed a lot. It must burn a ton of calories and it pretty much destroys your body. If you have any stress/anger/worry issues, it might be worth dealing with those too. Also agree about the protein. Anything over 400-600 calories is overkill or even dangerous.

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OP Wrote:I can eat 2kg of meat and in the next morning I still weigh the same. I guess I reached my weight's max. with 60kg a few months ago. I could not surpass that o_o

Yeah that's what I believed too...

Being able to eat lots and not get fat is not directly related to being underweight. It's the same for me. It's commonly referred as "fast metabolism" in weight training. It can affect the sort of routine you do but what do I know I was very thin and put on 14kg and have kept them without ever exercising much since.

OP Wrote:I didn't understand the part about lifting weights. I have a 4kg dumbbell here which I lift a few times in the morning...

Priceless.

Please post back when you will have gained even just 10kg with body weight exercises and your vegetarian diet. I can't wait.

@Javizy: Thanks for your recommendation. I don't have much money to spend and actually I'm pretty stingy when it comes to buying weights, etc. so, using ladders and other things I have already around also in the garden seems to be practical

@Fabrice: Keep your irony for yourself I hate my metabolism, anyway.

dizmox Wrote:Not that I like weightlifting, I just see the utility of being able to pick up things around the house/garden/workplace.

You can lift women while having sex. It's part of the reason why they find strong men sexy. :-)

@fabrice

a) plants contain protein.

b) Tori stated his current weight at 58kg. He therefore has 58 kg of body weight to work with. That is more than enough.

c) he only needs to gain about 4kg to be in the 'official' healthy range.

d) last time I checked it isn't a race...

Tori-kun Wrote:@Javizy: Thanks for your recommendation. I don't have much money to spend and actually I'm pretty stingy when it comes to buying weights, etc. so, using ladders and other things I have already around also in the garden seems to be practical

If your posture's bad, I think you'll notice the difference pretty fast. I've been doing a lot of stretches along with the 10-week program (into the third week) and it's already spread my chest and brought my shoulders back. A small amount of definition is coming through, but the posture change makes my body look totally different. I seem to look better in T-shirts. It's weird.

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@nadiatims Thanks for the biology course. Are you a man? Do you weigh less than 60kg at 186cm? Have you gained 14kg? No. I have put on a stable 14kg (I went up to 78kg actually, but then shed the extra fat). And I did so at thirty years old, not twenty, which is proof that being skinny for so long was not at all a genetical thing. As others said, 75kg is still quite slim, but it's fine. I could probably reach 80-85 now if I really wanted, but I am not putting my faith in fairy tales: it would be a lot of work, and doing some seriously hard hitting squats and other compound exercises and eating lots of crap, or using powders or whatnot. Anything else will be temporary gains.

It's not about "race". He will NEVER reach a stable 70+ kg with weak exercises. NEVER.

If it was the case then I would be 80kg+ by now as I'm doing fairly good exercises with a tower, dips, pullups! etc.

Your point b) is fail logic of course since he will rarely get to use the whole body weight, except perhaps when doing TOUGH exercises like pullups.

As for c) he mentioned 75kg in his original post, which is a reasonable weight for his size. Any weight is ok of course as long as he feels good. Point is this isn't about him, with the super vague questions and lack of real intention displayed in his answers. Just you and me arguing.

Are you on an evangelizing mission? See you are just as stuck as I am in your way of thinking. Jack Lalanne the '"godfather of fitness" ate healthy, but he ate meat, and lots of it. And he made it to 96 years old. He was in excellent shape. All this belief that eating meat or eggs or that somehow there are "unnatural" ways of bulking up with machines is a load of bullcrap. Jack Lalanne himself invented many of the machines seen today in the gym.

This guy stuck to physics you see, not stupid belief systems.

@Javizy: Yeah, I don't expect my body to change in.. a month, not at all. I guess it's a slow process and I'm patient enough. Concerning the posture -- you are right. Yesterday I felt like I would dislocate my shoulder joint if I continued practicing like that o_o It really hurt.

@nadiatims: From a previous post I sense you're not eating meat, too. People like you inspire me a lot, to be honest, because I was someone who could eat meat and nothing else for weeks. It tastes just so good. But according to recent studies I read, vegetarians/vegans have a decreased rate for suffering cancer. (40% less than meat-eaters) I proved by myself that you can stuff yourself full with veg/fruits and feel "full", instead of using meat. It's possible. It's a myth that vegetarians are lacking substances that are only contained in meat. (Right?)

@chamcham: True words orz But why do we have kitchen tables, dish washers, refrigerators then? Ok, another point encouraging me to keep at it: lifting women during sex

@Fabrice: What to do then? I did my workout for today, for example, and I feel like I cannot move anymore. Every muscle is just tensed and when I wake tomorrow in the morning I will have muscle pain (oh, that's for sure lol). I'm a bit afraid of buying protein powder at the chemist's.. it's not that it's expensive, but rather that I don't want to feel like taking medicaments or "cheat". Can't tell how my body will react towards it or if it has any bad sideeffects......

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Regarding meat: there are many variables involved. What Jack Lalanne underlined is that you eat good, fresh food. If you eat meat you buy good meat, you don't go and eat hamburgers at Mc Donalds, duh.

Yes vegetarian food can be absolutely delicious, 100% agree. I ate vegetarian for ten days during the Vipassana meditation retreats. Frickkin amazing, they had delicious apple pie also made with apples you could just pickup yourself on the floor just meters away from the kitchen.

But if I was going to gain some serious weight, it's not practical. You can do it, yes, but it's a lot of effort and trouble and it's hard enough as it is for a < 60kg guy to put on the weight. That's my point of view in a nutshell.

Hm, but all that counts are the calories (fat, protein, sugar etc) I consume per day, right? If I can compensate all that only with vegs/fruits, I'm fine, ain't I? What makes meat the key for gaining weight more easily for you, Fabrice?

Tori-kun Wrote:But according to recent studies I read, vegetarians/vegans have a decreased rate for suffering cancer. (40% less than meat-eaters) I proved by myself that you can stuff yourself full with veg/fruits and feel "full", instead of using meat. It's possible. It's a myth that vegetarians are lacking substances that are only contained in meat.

You need to look at traditional cultures for healthy ways of eating and not be taken in by heavily confounded observational studies of fat American nurses. Humans can live to be healthy eating a wide range of diets. There's nothing wrong with meat, saturated fat or even sugar if you're eating real food in a way that suits your genes, metabolism and lifestyle. I respect people's dietary choices, but to avoid nutritious foods and a varied diet based on poor research would be unfortunate. High protein and calorie diets will shorten your lifespan though.

That said, I don't see why you need meat if you have eggs and dairy. Coconut and palm oil are great sources of fat too. Vegans are the ones who really need to be careful.

chamcham Wrote:

dizmox Wrote:Not that I like weightlifting, I just see the utility of being able to pick up things around the house/garden/workplace.

You can lift women while having sex. It's part of the reason why they find strong men sexy. :-)

I just decided to get a skinny girlfriend instead of going through the hassle of working out.

I'm getting pretty confused with all these studies. It's not only an American university, but other universities coming to (almost) the same conclusion: a vegetarian diet is healthier. I'm going through this diet not for the sake of animals, but rather for the sake of my health. It's not a "pity-diet". A nice side effect is that I feel somehow lighter, yet still have power.

dizmox Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:

dizmox Wrote:Not that I like weightlifting, I just see the utility of being able to pick up things around the house/garden/workplace.

You can lift women while having sex. It's part of the reason why they find strong men sexy. :-)

I just decided to get a skinny girlfriend instead of going through the hassle of working out.

If you're a strong man, you can twirl that skinny girlfriend around like a baton....and a few more things.... ;-)

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Yes, if you can get the calories and extra proteins from a vegetarian diet that will work.

The key is to add enough extra calories every day, and in those calories you need to make sure that there is enough extra proteins.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to say meat is necessary, I just mentioned that as a counter argument to emphasize practicality to get the goal done, that's all. For example it may seem silly, but if you don't have a car and you're going to be serious with this, you're going to be very hungry, and that means doing groceries more often, and carrying more food. I had to lug loads of milk cartons, bananas and stuff. Vegetables can take lots of space for comparatively less calories.

So to replace meat you'll probably want to go for peas and lentils. Standard vegetables in non vegetarian diet, like salad, tomatoes, broccolis etc. all have very healthy stuff in it like vitamins and iron, but they really suck when it comes to calories. Same goes for fruits. The most affordable to me then was bananas. Anything else was for pleasure and not gaining weight.

Actually I love milk and I drank lots of full fat milk, ate loads of bananas, loads of pasta and rice, gouda cheese (easiest to buy in packs), etc. Lots of tuna cans too. And lots of crap food like durums or crisps now and then and coca cola when I was out with friends, to reach the daily target. I didn't have to worry about those as I was going to burn through them anyway. All that matters is to make sure the daily amount of quality proteins is reached, and split it throughout the day.

Ok, so I found notes from 2003. I had like a weekly log with 7 columns per A4 page where I noted everything I ate. At the beginning it seems I was going for 85+ g of proteins per day. Just try and see how you can get 80 g of decent proteins per day and then maybe you'll understand why I was trying to simplify, including ditching the vegetarian only approach if necessary. I love to simplify things to focus on my goal, you may be able to do the same without simplifying as much as I do.

Whey powder may not be bad at all. If you buy simple whey powder, perhaps with vanilla or chocolate for taste, that stuff's pretty basic. It's not really unhealthy. To be honest I was so self conscious back then I was too afraid to buy powder at the gym