^German?!
I dont see what would be wrong with games if you play the ones with lots of reading.
I dont see what would be wrong with games if you play the ones with lots of reading.
2013-04-12, 5:40 pm
corry Wrote:^German?!i guess you never read thomas bernhard.
ontopic: i'm reading 真鶴 by 川上 弘美 now and it's pretty good. she has a talent of expressing complex ideas through simple and elegant sentences. it was translated into english a couple years ago.
some of the authors that i haven't read yet, but were recommended to me by my japanese friends knowledgeable about literature are yumeno kyuusaku, hyakken uchida, akiyuki nosaka and shichirou fukazawa.
2013-04-13, 5:30 am
Stansfield123 Wrote:Unless you speak Russian and German, most of the world's best literature you're gonna have to read as a translation anyway.Err, seems like a strange claim. Certainly there are a group of Russian novelists that are considered among the best of the best, but at the same time a lot of people consider Shakespeare and Dante as the two greatest writers of all times. And I'm not sure German literature is any better than English literature.
Edited: 2013-04-13, 5:31 am
Advertising (Register to hide)
May 16 - 30 : Pretty Big Deal: Save 31% on all Premium Subscriptions!
- Sign up here
2013-04-13, 8:09 am
^It's having an opinion. Some people mistake their opinion for fact.
2013-04-13, 9:30 am
While implying that some literature pieces are the best it's obviously subjective, but when it comes to classics German and Russians do have a strong presence. While I personally dislike Russian literature, Dostoievsky, Tolstoi, Gogol and the like are considered pillars of literature, and the same goes for Kafka, Herman Hesse and Goethe. Not to mention Heinrich Boell and other writers which are pretty damn awesome.
Denying Shakespeare's influence would be a bit silly since he pretty much single-handedly reformed the English language lexicon. Of course, the difference between "influential" and "best" is a fine line. If you go for influence, German literature is also pretty big on the English-speaking literary world since it takes on so much from German Idealism.
Of course, German and Russian aren't the only notable ones (French literature is pretty huge when it comes to influence and reshaping literary currents), but the point still stands that most well-known classics are not written in the same language and if you want to read them you have to use translations...
They call it universal literature for a reason.
[/philologist]
Denying Shakespeare's influence would be a bit silly since he pretty much single-handedly reformed the English language lexicon. Of course, the difference between "influential" and "best" is a fine line. If you go for influence, German literature is also pretty big on the English-speaking literary world since it takes on so much from German Idealism.
Of course, German and Russian aren't the only notable ones (French literature is pretty huge when it comes to influence and reshaping literary currents), but the point still stands that most well-known classics are not written in the same language and if you want to read them you have to use translations...
They call it universal literature for a reason.
[/philologist]
2013-04-13, 11:03 am
@Zgarbas: how can you dislike Russian literature?? that seems pretty crazy to me. i think you would have to try quite hard to dislike it.
Good writing is good writing, and yes, most of the best literature in the world is going to have to be read in translation, if only because the best of any country is going to be better than the majority from one.
Ideally you would just learn the language they're written in, and read them that way.
I'm looking forward to the day when we have access to the best of Benin and Bhutan, and they're as easy to get hold of as French, Russian, and German literature though. There are whole worlds of thought and story still left to explore.
There's plenty of great Japanese literature though. I dunno why you'd need to start on translations in Japanese until you get through all that, and that itself might take a lifetime, depending on your reading speed
太宰治、三島由紀夫、谷崎潤一郎、漱石夏目、宮沢賢治、芥川龍之介、大江健三郎、村上春樹, etcetcetc. and then there's Japanese poetry too...
Here's a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_literature
Good writing is good writing, and yes, most of the best literature in the world is going to have to be read in translation, if only because the best of any country is going to be better than the majority from one.
Ideally you would just learn the language they're written in, and read them that way.
I'm looking forward to the day when we have access to the best of Benin and Bhutan, and they're as easy to get hold of as French, Russian, and German literature though. There are whole worlds of thought and story still left to explore.
There's plenty of great Japanese literature though. I dunno why you'd need to start on translations in Japanese until you get through all that, and that itself might take a lifetime, depending on your reading speed
太宰治、三島由紀夫、谷崎潤一郎、漱石夏目、宮沢賢治、芥川龍之介、大江健三郎、村上春樹, etcetcetc. and then there's Japanese poetry too...
Here's a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_literature
Edited: 2013-04-13, 11:05 am
2013-04-13, 11:26 am
I guess some people think most means the same thing as all. Can't explain why else anyone would interpret my post as a claim that there is no great English language literature. Some of my favorite authors wrote in English or Spanish. But, in my view, most of the world's great literature is written in Russian and German. The overwhelming majority of the Western world's philosophy is in German, for instance.
And the reason why someone (who is picky about their reading and is still learning Japanese) would want to read translated works is because they are more accessible to a foreigner, not because there's no good Japanese literature. It's damn near impossible to pick a good book in a language you can't speak properly, from a culture you don't know very well. That's why everyone here recommends light or at least popular novels, rather than more serious or classic works.
But it's very easy to pick a good book from an author you already know, who's style and ideas you're familiar with, and whom you were planning to read anyway, but in English. You get to read something sophisticated and brilliant, but easy to understand.
And the reason why someone (who is picky about their reading and is still learning Japanese) would want to read translated works is because they are more accessible to a foreigner, not because there's no good Japanese literature. It's damn near impossible to pick a good book in a language you can't speak properly, from a culture you don't know very well. That's why everyone here recommends light or at least popular novels, rather than more serious or classic works.
But it's very easy to pick a good book from an author you already know, who's style and ideas you're familiar with, and whom you were planning to read anyway, but in English. You get to read something sophisticated and brilliant, but easy to understand.
Edited: 2013-04-13, 11:40 am
2013-04-13, 12:34 pm
Stansfield123 Wrote:But, in my view, most of the world's great literature is written in Russian and German. The overwhelming majority of the Western world's philosophy is in German, for instance.erm, no, it's not...?!
Yes, there are many great German philosophers, and some German philosophers are, in my opinion, some of the best. But that doesn't make them the "overwhelming majority" of the whole tradition of Western philosophy, not by a long stretch.
Parmenides, Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Mill, Bentham, Locke, Hobbes, Machiavelli, Rousseau, Berkeley, Hume, Spinoza, Kierkegaard, Merleau-Ponty, Sartre, Deleuze, Derrida, Russell. And so on and so on. Since the renaissance, western philosophy has been a conversation between a certain type of aristocratic class who span several different European countries.
Similarly with Russian literature... just because there are many great Russian authors doesn't make the majority of the world's great literature Russian. That's just a childish logical error.
Honestly, i've tried to read translated literature in Japanese, and i didn't find it easier than reading Japanese literature at all. Have you actually tried it? The language of the translations flows in a different way than it does for japanese literature, (just like it does in English). Just go straight for Japanese literature. Some of those i mentioned, like Akutagawa and Kenji Miyazawa wrote children's stories, they aren't particularly difficult. You can often find animated versions on youtube if it helps you to understand the outline of the story before you read. You can find versions that use modern kanji and hiragana too.
take 太宰治 for example:
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000035/fil...19985.html
Yeah, you're probably going to need a dictionary. But you are also going to need a dictionary for Dostoyevsky:
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000363/fil...37300.html
and you're also going to have to wade through a bunch of katakana for Russian names while you're at it. Can you see how the writing is denser, and flows differently to the 太宰治?
You're also going to learn nothing of Japanese culture by avoiding it.
People suggest easier books in Japanese, because, well, they're easier. Translations of great literature aren't easier. Of course, if there's a translation you particularly want to read, there's no harm in reading it in Japanese. But i think in general you get more out of reading something Japanese, and you get to understand the language the way it's formed in the minds of Japanese people.
Edited: 2013-04-13, 12:42 pm
2013-04-13, 1:31 pm
^ I found Akutagawa to be incredibly difficult to read.
Russian literature is incredibly dense and rarely has an interesting enough plot to make me feel like it's worth it. I think I've had dozens of attempts to go through Anna Karenina, The Idiot and the Brothers Karamazov but I always end up getting annoyed and dropped them. De gustibus, I guess.
Russian literature is incredibly dense and rarely has an interesting enough plot to make me feel like it's worth it. I think I've had dozens of attempts to go through Anna Karenina, The Idiot and the Brothers Karamazov but I always end up getting annoyed and dropped them. De gustibus, I guess.
2013-04-13, 2:25 pm
Ok, i see. Yeah, if a strong plot is something that is really important to you, i guess i can understand.
With Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy, plot was more of a wire frame to hang their ideas on. It's more that their understanding and depiction of humanity was particularly good. Dostoyevsky more character and humanity itself, Tolstoy more personality and mood, imo. Dostoyevsky also, for his subtlety and complexity of thought and the philosophical aspects of certain questions. Tolstoy also was interested in philosophical questions, but perhaps in more of a social way, and seems more of an idealist, and way more optimistic.
People read those books, not particularly to read a story with a good plot, but for how rich they are in understanding and depicting some of the things most fundamental to us as humans. There's something in them which speaks with such honesty, and force, i think. There's so much you can take from reading their books, and pull out, transform, and make part of yourself and your understanding of the world, in a way that isn't necessarily the case when a book's focus is it's plot, and all enjoyment derived from riding along with it.
Anyway, if you ever feel like giving them another go, maybe try reading them with that in mind.
Ah, yeah, 芥川 might be quite difficult actually, i've only read 白, but clicking on others, some of them do look more difficult...
With Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy, plot was more of a wire frame to hang their ideas on. It's more that their understanding and depiction of humanity was particularly good. Dostoyevsky more character and humanity itself, Tolstoy more personality and mood, imo. Dostoyevsky also, for his subtlety and complexity of thought and the philosophical aspects of certain questions. Tolstoy also was interested in philosophical questions, but perhaps in more of a social way, and seems more of an idealist, and way more optimistic.
People read those books, not particularly to read a story with a good plot, but for how rich they are in understanding and depicting some of the things most fundamental to us as humans. There's something in them which speaks with such honesty, and force, i think. There's so much you can take from reading their books, and pull out, transform, and make part of yourself and your understanding of the world, in a way that isn't necessarily the case when a book's focus is it's plot, and all enjoyment derived from riding along with it.
Anyway, if you ever feel like giving them another go, maybe try reading them with that in mind.
Ah, yeah, 芥川 might be quite difficult actually, i've only read 白, but clicking on others, some of them do look more difficult...
Edited: 2013-04-13, 2:32 pm
2013-04-13, 6:44 pm
Not necessarily a strong plot, but generally something to hang on to. I'm pretty open when it comes to new things, and most of my favourite books are nigh plotless. It's just that Russian literature combines a writing style which turns me off, without providing a plot that's strong enough to compensate, and given my dislike of the writing style I can't delve deep enough to enjoy the philosophy and thoughts; they sound great in theory but I just find myself unable to get into them. Gogol and early Nabokov works avert this somewhat because the writing style appeals more to me. I keep meaning to try Checkhov out because I liked his plays, and the Master and the Margarita has been on my to-read list for ages, but I haven't gotten around to them.
Oh, and I hate the multiple names. I can barely remember character names as it is, having multiple names for them is tiring ^^'.
Oh, and I hate the multiple names. I can barely remember character names as it is, having multiple names for them is tiring ^^'.
2013-04-14, 4:51 am
IceCream Wrote:I was referring to post-Renaissance philosophy, sorry for the confusion. Of course the Ancient Greeks had the most important philosophers.Stansfield123 Wrote:But, in my view, most of the world's great literature is written in Russian and German. The overwhelming majority of the Western world's philosophy is in German, for instance.erm, no, it's not...?!
Yes, there are many great German philosophers, and some German philosophers are, in my opinion, some of the best. But that doesn't make them the "overwhelming majority" of the whole tradition of Western philosophy, not by a long stretch.
Parmenides, Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Mill, Bentham, Locke, Hobbes, Machiavelli, Rousseau, Berkeley, Hume, Spinoza, Kierkegaard, Merleau-Ponty, Sartre, Deleuze, Derrida, Russell.
But, out of the names you listed, only a couple rise to the level of the great German philosophers at the core of Western philosophy since the Renaissance. If you look at most of those names on your list, you will find a Greek or German philosopher who's ideas they are playing off of. (the main exceptions are Descartes, Locke and Spinoza)
2013-04-14, 5:01 am
IceCream Wrote:ugh how ridiculous.Good reply. In case anyone's wondering, this is why I rarely bother following these kinds of threads and finishing discussions I start.
2013-04-14, 5:11 am
it's the only response that is worth making really. Honestly i'd rather try to clean tottenham high road with a toothbrush than talk to you. It'd be far more entertaining.
I mean, it's just absurd. I'm not even sure how to respond to what you've written. You think the German philosophers wrote philosophy in a vacuum with no reference to anyone else and therefore they have written the overwhelming majority of the western world's philosophy?!?
You might as well just say that you think toads are usually yellow and therefore infrared alphabets would be a good thing for the world.
I mean, it's just absurd. I'm not even sure how to respond to what you've written. You think the German philosophers wrote philosophy in a vacuum with no reference to anyone else and therefore they have written the overwhelming majority of the western world's philosophy?!?
You might as well just say that you think toads are usually yellow and therefore infrared alphabets would be a good thing for the world.
2013-04-14, 10:20 am
Stansfield123 Wrote:You know, enough people think you're being stupid and ridiculous enough of the time, that maybe it's time to admit that the problem might lie with yourself and not others.IceCream Wrote:ugh how ridiculous.Good reply. In case anyone's wondering, this is why I rarely bother following these kinds of threads and finishing discussions I start.
2013-04-14, 11:10 am
Zgarbas Wrote:Not necessarily a strong plot, but generally something to hang on to. I'm pretty open when it comes to new things, and most of my favourite books are nigh plotless. It's just that Russian literature combines a writing style which turns me off, without providing a plot that's strong enough to compensate, and given my dislike of the writing style I can't delve deep enough to enjoy the philosophy and thoughts; they sound great in theory but I just find myself unable to get into them. Gogol and early Nabokov works avert this somewhat because the writing style appeals more to me. I keep meaning to try Checkhov out because I liked his plays, and the Master and the Margarita has been on my to-read list for ages, but I haven't gotten around to them.Aha! Master and Margarita is on my try-to-finish-this-time book list. It's a short list. I can vividly recall the opening pages of Master and Margarita, I was just too busy at the time and didn't finish it. The other book I have started twice and it just wasn't the time is Neal Stephenson's Diamond Age. I think I just need to read it straight through and not get distracted because there's so much going on in that book.
Oh, and I hate the multiple names. I can barely remember character names as it is, having multiple names for them is tiring ^^'.
I enjoy short/long stories by a lot of the older Russians: Gogol, Turgenev, Dostoyevsky, and some others. Any compilation of Russian short stories should have some gems. I feel like Akutagawa (from what few stories I've read) can be like a less political Gogol, but that's probably just me. Edit: Come to think of it, maybe it's just because they both have a story called 'The Nose'.
My favorite Russian story (it's a 'novella') is The Yellow Arrow, by Victor Pelevin. It was written in 1993. I recommend it.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Yellow-Arrow-D...llow+arrow
And the multiple names, no way around it really.
Back on topic: Actually I don't have much to add that's on OP's topic, :/ unless he/she wants to read these books in Japanese translation. I'm thinking of trying Bulgakov in Japanese some day.
Edited: 2013-04-14, 11:13 am
2013-04-14, 11:22 am
For some reason i never really enjoyed The Master and Margarita. I mean, it was fine, but it just seemed like there wasn't anything really new to take from it. It may just have been my mood at the time i read it though, because i know lots of people do like it. Usually i end up forgetting the content of books and only remember how i felt when i read them, but with The Master and Margarita it's a complete blank. Maybe i should read it again one day?? The only other "great literature" book that has been like that for me was One Hundred Years of Solitude. If you gave me just the last page, i would have got as much from reading that as reading the whole book. The rest seemed rather pointless to me.
Nobody's mentioned Solzhenitsyn yet, but i love his books... definitely read him if you get a chance!!!
Nobody's mentioned Solzhenitsyn yet, but i love his books... definitely read him if you get a chance!!!
Edited: 2013-04-14, 11:24 am
2013-04-14, 12:09 pm
IceCream Wrote:For some reason i never really enjoyed The Master and Margarita. I mean, it was fine, but it just seemed like there wasn't anything really new to take from it. It may just have been my mood at the time i read it though, because i know lots of people do like it. Usually i end up forgetting the content of books and only remember how i felt when i read them, but with The Master and Margarita it's a complete blank. Maybe i should read it again one day?? The only other "great literature" book that has been like that for me was One Hundred Years of Solitude. If you gave me just the last page, i would have got as much from reading that as reading the whole book. The rest seemed rather pointless to me.I actually kind of agree that One Hundred Years of Solitude was overrated, but often so by people who don't otherwise read a lot of fiction. Though I think it is important for how it influenced other writers globally. I would say it influenced Murakami Haruki, but he always seems to mention Raymond Chandler and the like. It's funny because I feel One Hundred Years of Solitude has similar issues to Russian with names making the reading more laborious. I think there was a chart in the beginning explaining the names and geneology of the characters.
Nobody's mentioned Solzhenitsyn yet, but i love his books... definitely read him if you get a chance!!!
I suddenly want to recommend Julio Cortazar, particularly Hopscotch. He's Argentine. I feel like it's somewhere in the middle of Henry Miller and--the less linear of--Jerzy Kosinski's works. I'm not sure Zgarbas would love it, but what do I know, especially when, as you say, Icecream, the way you read a book has a lot to do with oneself and one's mood.
Doesn't Master & Margarita start with guy sitting on the bench talking to the devil who has taken the form of a talking cat? Unforgettable. (Upon reviewing the plot summary on Wikipedia, it seems there is a talking cat, and Satan in disguise, but they are separate characters.)
I look forward to checking out Solzhenitsyn. Thanks for the recommendation.
Edited: 2013-04-14, 12:10 pm
2013-04-14, 1:57 pm
Added Cortazar to my to-read list. Hopscotch sounds interesting, and if he's good enough to be paired with Sabato then he's good enough for me
I haven't gone through thousand years of solitude (have the book from a sale a few years back, but haven't gotten around to it), but I never got the hype revolving Love in the Time of Cholera. All I remember from that book was the bunch of enemas that for some reason no fan of the book seemed to notice. (how can you read the book, multiple times nonetheless, and not notice the plethora of enemas?)
It's always weird to me how randomly some books just don't catch you no matter how close they are to genres you normally enjoy. Almost every Sabato fan I know loves Saramango, for example, but I never got past the first few pages with him for some reason. They also like Marquez, which is why I'll give 100 years a chance at some point, but after Love in the Time of Cholera I'd place them at completely different levels; that book was 1000 years too early to be placed anywhere near Sabato.
I haven't gone through thousand years of solitude (have the book from a sale a few years back, but haven't gotten around to it), but I never got the hype revolving Love in the Time of Cholera. All I remember from that book was the bunch of enemas that for some reason no fan of the book seemed to notice. (how can you read the book, multiple times nonetheless, and not notice the plethora of enemas?)
It's always weird to me how randomly some books just don't catch you no matter how close they are to genres you normally enjoy. Almost every Sabato fan I know loves Saramango, for example, but I never got past the first few pages with him for some reason. They also like Marquez, which is why I'll give 100 years a chance at some point, but after Love in the Time of Cholera I'd place them at completely different levels; that book was 1000 years too early to be placed anywhere near Sabato.
2013-04-15, 12:44 am
Wow, everyone's getting way off topic, but over the past few days I've really been getting into my quest for good Japanese literature and managed to join up at a community library where there's a decent-sized selection of Japanese books. I found a few other good ones today; hopefully I'll enjoy them! Read most of Norwegian Wood in English at the hairdresser's yesterday as well, and I really got into it. I'm liking how the sex scenes manage to be tasteful yet well-written.
I have no interest in any of the 洋書 recommended; Japanese culture is my greatest passion in life, and something Western is guaranteed to bore me no matter what language it's written in. Especially European stuff... I don't care about how popular and influential something has been over the years, I'm the sort who reads what she wants when she wants. Sorry to disappoint everybody.
I have no interest in any of the 洋書 recommended; Japanese culture is my greatest passion in life, and something Western is guaranteed to bore me no matter what language it's written in. Especially European stuff... I don't care about how popular and influential something has been over the years, I'm the sort who reads what she wants when she wants. Sorry to disappoint everybody.
2013-04-15, 8:16 am
... you are aware that Murakami's only link to Japanese culture is the author's origin, right? His writing style is so westernized that it's basically American.
2013-04-16, 12:01 am
This article seems a bit of exaggeration (and based primarily on analysis of “The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle's”).
I didn’t read much of Murakami but in his short essay (真っ白な嘘) Murakami references:
- names: 大阪五兵、牟田口正午 (ok, these names are fictitious but definitely not fictitious in a Western way)
- events: 言文一致
- idioms: 真っ白な嘘 (the title of the essay)
No, I wouldn’t take that article you linked to too seriously.
I didn’t read much of Murakami but in his short essay (真っ白な嘘) Murakami references:
- names: 大阪五兵、牟田口正午 (ok, these names are fictitious but definitely not fictitious in a Western way)
- events: 言文一致
- idioms: 真っ白な嘘 (the title of the essay)
No, I wouldn’t take that article you linked to too seriously.
2013-04-16, 12:08 am
What does a short non-fiction essay regarding the difference between Japanese/American views on white lies have to do with fiction?
His fiction obviously uses some idioms in the language, and Japanese names (they are set in Japan), but that doesn't make it any less Western of a writing style, general plot and pop-culture references which are about 90% Western.
His fiction obviously uses some idioms in the language, and Japanese names (they are set in Japan), but that doesn't make it any less Western of a writing style, general plot and pop-culture references which are about 90% Western.
2013-04-16, 12:17 am
Hnnnh, in point of fact, I don't believe that western readers are particularly aware of Murakami at all so it seems quite strange to me to talk about how his western readers might receive his writings ... that are in Japanese! I think 'Kokoro' is the only Japanese work I was aware of (outside of anime/manga stuff) before I started studying Japanese.
Anyway, anyone who lived to adulthood and had been published for 3 years (according to the linked article) before traveling to the west, cannot possibly be so 'western' as to not be a Japanese writer.
While I agree with neither the thrust of the linked article, nor with Zgarbas' point... I've not actually -read- Murakami. I've got only a little interest in 'classical' Japanese literature, but, after reading this little debate I may have to read his works. The inter-reflections of east and west and particularly the U.S. and Japan are fascinating, and that makes the works of a Japanese who lived for some time in the U.S. more interesting rather than less.
Anyway, anyone who lived to adulthood and had been published for 3 years (according to the linked article) before traveling to the west, cannot possibly be so 'western' as to not be a Japanese writer.
While I agree with neither the thrust of the linked article, nor with Zgarbas' point... I've not actually -read- Murakami. I've got only a little interest in 'classical' Japanese literature, but, after reading this little debate I may have to read his works. The inter-reflections of east and west and particularly the U.S. and Japan are fascinating, and that makes the works of a Japanese who lived for some time in the U.S. more interesting rather than less.
Edited: 2013-04-16, 12:18 am