I've been looking around this site and I'm finding the talk about how to learn grammar rather confusing. So I was wondering if people could tell me exactly what they do to study new grammar points.

Currently I read through them, look at the examples and think about how it works until it makes sense to me. From that point on I'm not really sure of the best way to practice them. I'm not very good with keeping up a journal or diary so things like lang-8 don't work for me.

I'm currently in Japan and am in an isolated place with people who speak very little English. So I should be able to practice with them. However my speaking level is rather atrocious. No one wants to talk with someone who speaks with the pace of a snail. Also, I tend to forget most of the grammar points when I'm talking and so my talking is just a pile of words with a few very easy grammar points thrown in. I don't have this problem when writing Japanese as the slower pace allows me to think more and to check my grammar.

So can anyone recommend some good study techniques that will make recalling and learning new grammar points easier during output?

(I know the answer seems obvious - practice talking more and don't worry about going slowly, but I would like to see if there are other options)

Just throwing some ideas out there

・ Throw everything into ANKI and hope some of it sticks over time
・ Try to write your own sentences. Maybe 5-10 per point and then run them through a Japanese person.
・ Keep looking for a tutor
・ 継続は力なり

These are short term solutions and should not be considered "good enough" in the long run.

Pimsleur makes the best of a bad situation. It's about 30 minutes to an hour a day of listening and replicating. Not ideal in the long run, but at least it can make you comfortable enough to speak.

In addition, there's an outstanding "point and speak" series of books that have a Japanese/English version. You can find it in the travel section of larger bookstores. Use this in conjuction with what you learn with Pimsleur to help expand your speaking ability.

kitakitsune Wrote:Just throwing some ideas out there

Here's a couple more:

・ Try to get a conversation partner. There are bound to be people around you who want to learn English. Set up a time with them where you speak only English for 30 minutes and then speak only Japanese for 30 minutes. You listened to their English for 30 minutes, so they are forced to listen to you Japanese for 30 minutes. Most people are very, very happy to get this conversation practice with you, so they will be willing to listen to your Japanese for nearly any amount of time. (And to them, your Japanese probably isn't as bad as it is to you.)
・ Maybe do close-delete in Anki? Some people really like this, and others don't. Do it for a while (at the very least two or three months) and see if it makes a difference.
・ Get a lot more input. (A lot of people will argue about this.)

Also, maybe try watching this:

I feel like this video is kind of like AJATT. A lot of the stuff in it is pretty dumb, but the take-away message is really good. Don't worry and just try to have fun.

Thanks for your advice guys

Nukemarine Wrote:Pimsleur makes the best of a bad situation. It's about 30 minutes to an hour a day of listening and replicating. Not ideal in the long run, but at least it can make you comfortable enough to speak.

Haha I remember using Pimsleur a few years ago before I started Japanese class at school. It seemed rather good, never finished it though so I don't know how far the grammar takes you. I feel like my Japanese is a bit more advanced then that though ^^ I'm not really sure what level I'm at, probably between pre-intermediate and intermediate. So I think I'd need things that help with more complex sentence making.

partner55083777 Wrote:・ Try to get a conversation partner.
・ Get a lot more input.
Also, maybe try watching this

I've thought about getting a conversation partner before. Maybe I'll try again. Can you suggest any sites?
I am actually already getting a lot of input as I'm wwoofing atm and so have to talk to my hosts about the work, etc. But they're in their 60's and I'm a lot younger so we don't have too much in common and there's only so much talking about horses one can stand
That video is rather amusing. Although the character portrayed as "the good learner" is clearly very outgoing. I'm not. Don't have any trouble making Japanese friends though, but they're all in different parts of Japan right now so talking to them is hard

Sorry, I think I misunderstood your first post. I was thinking you were in a small town or something. What's wwoofing(?) like? Are you literally on a farm with no one around you? I guess it might be harder to make friends if you have no one around you who is your age.

I can't really help with the conversation partner thing. I was suggesting to get a conversation partner you can talk to in person. But if you don't have anyone your age around you, it might be hard to find someone. Do you have ways/time to leave the farm?

I think there are also sites for finding conversation partners, but I don't know it. Try searching this forum for something like "conversation partner website" or something.

In the video, the "good learner" IS very outgoing. I'm definitely not that outgoing, but since coming to Japan I've learned to be more outgoing. Learning to be more outgoing might be something fun to work on in addition to Japanese.

One tip for being outgoing: if someone invites you to do something, never say no. Doing things you normally wouldn't do is sometimes fun and exciting.

Haha yep I'm literally on a farm with no one around me except horses and the two owners There was one girl here before (unfortunately we just defaulted to English cause it was easier =\) but she's gone home now. I should be getting a new roommate soon who will be Japanese and who I'm kinda hoping doesn't talk English.

Wwoofing is pretty cool though. Wwoofing is mostly orientated at vegetables farms, but gardening isn't my thing, so I chose to work at a horse farm. I only do 6 hours a day of work (which is really very easy) and have lots of spare time which I fill mostly with studying Japanese as there isn't much to do around here if you can't drive. I also get to ride horses (yay)

lol coming to a different country definitely forces you to try and be more outgoing. Actually coming to this farm, where I knew there would be no one around to speak English with, was an attempt at making me be more outgoing ^^

Guess I'll start looking around for info on conversation partner sites

question how much/what kind of Japanese do you understand in the first place?

From my experience it doesnt appear that grammar is something that you can explicitly try to learn in the order you want. Despite knowing meaning and usage and or hearing and reading many examples of said grammar point/s, producing it almost seems like an unrelated process entirely.

Unfortunately there doesnt seem to be much focus on steps to improving output other than that people recommend doing more of it - which isn't really backed up by any significant proof. It could just be a matter of time before it sinks in.

I am beginning to think that it takes 3 or 4 years of daily exposure to the language to form grammatically correct sentences most of the time in all aspects of output. Children take about that much time as well. I just dont know anyone that speaks very well after a year or two.

I find it very helpful to memorise key sentences. Besides your normal vocabulary/kanji decks you could have something like a production deck where you translate complete specimen sentences, from your mother tongue to Japanese, that contain important grammar points. I would also write them down to reinforce the memorization process. But I wouldn't recommend to do more than, say, 10 a day. Maybe even less than that. Personally, I find it very hard to memorise Japanese sentences (as opposed to sentences in European languages).

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:question how much/what kind of Japanese do you understand in the first place?

Honestly I find this question very difficult to answer as quantifying how much I can understand is hard.
In terms of textbook study, I've finished genki 2 and so can understand pretty much all the grammar points in that. I probably can produce very few of them without lots of pre-thinking and preparation though. I spent 3 months working in Okinawa though and I've been here in Hokkaido for just over a month now, so I've probably learnt quite a few more grammar points.

I'm finding that my Japanese listening skills are increasing at a rather fast rate (which is probably just because it was my weakest skill before), so my problem really lies in output rather then what I can understand.

yowamushi Wrote:I find it very helpful to memorise key sentences.

I find key sentences are useful for when you're starting a conversation or if you get asked a fairly common question, but when having a conversation with your friends, etc, often the topics can be rather random and unfortunately I find that sentences I've memorised never seem to fit well. =\

Might try translating some sentences. Although where would I come up with these sentences that contain grammar points? Knowing me in order to come up with a sentence to translate, it would involve me thinking of something from Japanese -> English, which kind of defeats the point.

sikieiki Wrote:I am beginning to think that it takes 3 or 4 years of daily exposure to the language to form grammatically correct sentences most of the time in all aspects of output.

Guess I'll be doing lots of arm-waving and making little sense for a while to come

As for tips, I don't really have any except use it a lot. Especially in speech, you're just gonna have to live wiht the shame of being slow at making sentences and making tons of mistakes

I also recommend this:

http://www.jgram.org/ - Sign up for the daily grammar, every day learn what random grammar you get, just make it a daily routine