so it is childish to watch るろうに剣心 the anime, but ok to watch るろうに剣心 the movie?

Hashiriya Wrote:so it is childish to watch るろうに剣心 the anime, but ok to watch るろうに剣心 the movie?

I wasn't stating that this was MY opinion, but if someone thinks that language learning has to be justified, they will probably also automatically think that cartoons are only intended for children.

EDIT: Edited again by myself to actually make sense. The PC filter mangled my sentence completely.

Mushi Wrote:I've never heard of anyone learning Japanese so that they can do martial arts or ikebana. (Those things don't require knowledge of any language.) The closest thing I can think of was a friend who picked up a few phrases to get by while competing in a martial arts tournament in Japan.

There are plenty of people who learn Japanese to do stuff like this, and I think it's naive to say that learning Japanese is not necessary to learn these things.

Arts like tea ceremony or ikebana take many years to reach a high level, and most classes available in English in Japan, or available outside of Japan, only cover a very basic level. Not to mention, tea ceremony especially is a social art--high level tea ceremony is an aesthetic game with social elements, so it can't really be appreciated at that level outside of Japan or without knowledge of Japanese. Ikebana I know less about, so I don't know how much not knowing Japanese would limit you beyond just that rarity of classes, especially high level ones.

I have a couple friends, one in particular who go into it when he was stationed here in the military, whose primary interest in Japanese culture is martial arts. And, once again, despite the fact that the martial arts themselves don't have anything to do with language, my friends would have had far more limited choices if they were not fairly good at Japanese.

Anyway, a lot of people come to Japan just because they think it's exciting to live abroad and there are good jobs here. And they want to try something Japanese once they get here, so they get into a more traditional part of the culture. It's not rare or anything.

No one should be judging you for learning a new language. If anyone thinks your reasons are somehow "invalid", they should be laughed at / ridiculed for being so being judgmental.

I do think this post in an over-exaggeration; OP is over-thinking the issue. In my years of learning Japanese i've every heard every reason under the sun, both online and in language classes, and i can't remember the "i love japanese anime" brigade ever being looked down upon at all.

Certainly I've met some weirdos who were obsessed with anime and japanese girls, but they were usually looking upon negatively because they came across as creepy and otaku, rather than because they were studying for the wrong reasons.

Also ive met a few learners who are embarrassed about why they're learning japanese; they're insecure and think others will judge them, even though this almost certainly isn't the case. Maybe this is where the OP is coming from..?

Tzadeck Wrote:There are plenty of people who learn Japanese to do stuff like this, and I think it's naive to say that learning Japanese is not necessary to learn these things.

I'd pictured the typical serious martial artist or tea ceremony-ist as being too much into their specific art to go through RTK and so on. I haven't seen this sort of thing myself, but seeing as how the ancient Japanese learned Chinese in order to better learn elements of mainland culture, I guess it would not be unheard of.

I have updated the report and as it is a work in progress, may be updated again in the future.

Thank you for the discussions contained herein.

undead_saif Wrote:WTH are "high culture" and "low culture"?!

I have added a glossary to the document. Please read it and if you still have any more questions, ask.

undead_saif Wrote:These are all perfectly "valid" reasons to learn a language. Think about it, isn't it the person who studies the language is the one to decide whether it's a valid reason or not? If his/her reasons are making him/her learn the language, which isn't an easy thing, then they are valid, even if it's for porn!

Objectively speaking, yes, any reason for learning Japanese is valid, even if it's for porn. All reasons are valid and none are invalid.

However, the section of my document you are reading is taking the general society's point of view, not the language learning objectivist. The general subjective society has decided that some reasons are valid and some are invalid and this is evident from its behavior and the "hiding your power level" strategy is a social defense mechanism against this.

undead_saif Wrote:Someone might say that the Japanese traditional art is a higher value experience than watching Anime, which is understandable

And why is that "understandable" do you think? How you answer this question may or may not give weight to the valid/invalid reason phenomena.

undead_saif Wrote:TBH, I don't understand what's the purpose of this thread, if this thread is a continuation to the discussion on the other thread, isn't it supposed to be about "what are the most popular reasons for people to learn languages"?

The main purpose of the thread is to formally name, identify and examine the "valid/invalid reasons for learning Japanese" phenomena.

Taishi Wrote:About your remark on the OP, I don't think they're meant to be taken as an OK way to view the different reasons, but how the different reasons are likely to be viewed by others.

That's correct. As stated in the beginning and end of the report, any and all reasons for learning Japanese are valid.

The opinion that some reasons are valid and some reasons are invalid are not my opinions, but the opinions as expressed by the wide general society. I am documenting their opinions and behavior.

Aspiring Wrote:great explanation
I do agree that you should stop caring about what other people think,

Easier said than done. Everyone lives in society and wants to be a part of society and wants to be respected by their peers or at least, not be viewed or treated negatively.

This explains why honne, tatemae and "hiding one's power level" is so prevalent.

Silja Wrote:I would add "Japanese friends" (meaning: you have made friends to a Japanese person and got interested in Japanese language that way) to the "good reasons" list.

Thanks, that (friends and family) is an obvious one that I missed so I have added it to the "valid" reason list.

Silja Wrote:I've done it vice versa: I started as "high culture" (I got interested in Japanese art and especially calligraphy in art history class), but have moved to "low culture" (trying to find interesting anime and manga to expand my learning material). So, what am I?

The minority of Japanese language learners. Perhaps you can set a good example and bridge the gap between "low culture" and "high culture" to create a well-rounded individual.

Silja Wrote:By the way, I have never judged a fellow Japanese learner by the interests/reasons he/she might have. I can see your point in making yourself "noble" when you are for "high culture", but that as common phenomenon among any scene. Let's say you've been a fan for this underground band for years and the band finally makes a break-through and of course gets more fans. It's quite common for the "old" (and thus "more devoted" etc.) fans to despise the newer fans for reasons like "They only like the band because it's more popular now. When the hype cools down, they are no longer interested in their music." In this case, the longer you have done something, the more noble you are.

I believe they (people who don't like something when it becomes popular and mainstream) are called hippies.

pm215 Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:INVALID (BAD) REASONS FOR LEARNING JAPANESE

4) Japanese girls/women
5) Japanese guys/males

I think "my boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife is Japanese" is generally seen as a 'socially acceptable' motivation, though...

There is still the negative perception of white or other non-Asian males learning an Asian language for an Asian woman. This is similar to Russian Brides. Negativity includes things like:

-He's not man enough to date girls in his own country
-He wants an Asian woman because she's traditional and submissive
-He wants an Asian woman because he wants a girly-looking and girly-acting woman. He can't handle a "real woman"
-etc

As for white/non-Asian women looking for Japanese men, it is too much of a rarity for a positive or negative perception to take hold yet, which is why I have it filed under the "In-Dispute" section.

Interestingly, there is a positive reception of Japanese women looking abroad for foreign men: the oppressed Japanese woman is looking for a nice foreign man because her Japanese society is patriarchal and she seeks freedom. This is interesting because as said above, there is a negative reception of foreign men looking for Asian women. Is this a case of double standards or is it because society is unable to juggle two thoughts at the same time?

Hashiriya Wrote:how are drama and movies not in the same category as video-games and anime??

They are basically the same thing aren't they? Plus, there are movies about games/games about movies. It's all the same thing.

To use an example: suppose your girlfriend or potential girlfriend asked you what your hobbies are.

If you said "I like video games" it is quite possible that she would think that you are a child or a manchild. In any case, you are an immature person playing children's toys.

If you said "I like watching movies", I would wager that it would be much less likely the above scenario will play out. The potential girlfriend might even say "I like movies too!"

Whatever the case, liking video games is still less socially acceptable than liking movies, even though both are "mindless entertainment" (most of the time).

Hashiriya Wrote:so it is childish to watch るろうに剣心 the anime, but ok to watch るろうに剣心 the movie?

That may very well be the case for some or most people. After all, one is animated ("for children") while the other is not.

aphasiac Wrote:I do think this post in an over-exaggeration; OP is over-thinking the issue. In my years of learning Japanese i've every heard every reason under the sun, both online and in language classes, and i can't remember the "i love japanese anime" brigade ever being looked down upon at all.

Certainly I've met some weirdos who were obsessed with anime and japanese girls, but they were usually looking upon negatively because they came across as creepy and otaku, rather than because they were studying for the wrong reasons.

It seems that you may have inadvertently bought into the "valid/invalid" social conditioning.

You state that there are some people who are obsessed with anime and Japanese girls, and because of that, they are weirdos. You chose anime and Japanese girls, the lowest of the "low cultures."

But why is it not okay to be obsessed with anime and Japanese girls? Roger Ebert is obsessed with movies, and everyone (most people) loves him for it and nobody calls him a weirdo.

aphasiac Wrote:Also ive met a few learners who are embarrassed about why they're learning japanese; they're insecure and think others will judge them, even though this almost certainly isn't the case. Maybe this is where the OP is coming from..?

If there social judging does not exist (as you claim), then why would they be embarassed and insecure?

I'm sorry, but I don't get this thread. Learning a foreign language has to be one of the least controversial things one can do. I know of religious fanatics who think using a computer or watching TV is wrong, I know of homophobic idiots who think half the professions on the planet are "gay", and I certainly know of xenophobes who think foreign cultures and people are bad.

But I've never heard of anyone who thinks learning a foreign language is bad (even if it's just to know what the no good sons of bitches are up to).

I could walk into a dive bar in rural Louisiana with an Arabic for Dummies textbook, and the only reaction I would get is "Oh yeah, we can see how that might come in handy. good for you, fella', as long as you don't abandon the Lord Jesus Christ you hear now?"

Stansfield123 Wrote:But I've never heard of anyone who thinks learning a foreign language is bad (even if it's just to know what the no good sons of bitches are up to).

I have a good amount of contempt for people who say they are learning a language to proselytize.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:If there social judging does not exist (as you claim), then why would they be embarassed and insecure?

Maybe someone is catching flak for being obsessed with comic books, and is confused about the reason, thinks it's over learning Japanese.

In that case, the reason for the social judging is not the preoccupation with learning Japanese at all: it's the preoccupation with comic books. If instead of trying to learn Japanese to read them and watch them, the guy was reading and watching the English translations, he would be getting judged just the same.

I can definitely see how that might happen.

Tzadeck Wrote:I have a good amount of contempt for people who say they are learning a language to proselytize.

I think your contempt is for people who proselytize, in general, including the ones who do it in their native tongue.

Stansfield123 Wrote:I think your contempt is for people who proselytize, in general, including the ones who do it in their native tongue.

Yeah, but to a much lesser extent. I don't like it to some extent because I think they are wrong--but I also realize it's perfectly natural to want other people to believe what you believe, so if it's done in the right way it doesn't bother me all that much. But something about going to another culture (usually thinking that those people need saving and don't know any better) just seems more condescending to me. It's icky.

I also don't like people who train their 8 year old kids to memorize ridiculous lines and proselytize. It's creepy.

Stansfield123 Wrote:In that case, the reason for the social judging is not the preoccupation with learning Japanese at all: it's the preoccupation with comic books. If instead of trying to learn Japanese to read them and watch them, the guy was reading and watching the English translations, he would be getting judged just the same.

Okay, so social judging exists? You can tell that to aphasiac.

However, the social judging is not because the person is learning Japanese, but because the person is doing it for an invalid reason (manga) and not for a valid one (architecture)?

In that case, a reason this thread exists.

Stansfield123 Wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't get this thread.

Hyperborea Wrote:I fly to Japan out of San Francisco and every time the flight has a herd/pack/passel/squadron? of barely legal Mormons on their way over to tell those Japanese about how they need to get some magic underpants and a couple of extra wives. I've never heard anything complimentary about them from any Japanese person I know.

I've seen various young white religious males spreading religion at public train stations targeting Asians and speaking their language whether it is Vietnamese, Korean and Chinese.

Should "spreading religion" be a valid, invalid or in-dispute reason for learning Japanese? Socially, I might lean towards valid depending on the society (invalid in a secular society, valid in non-secular) but scientifically, I would lean towards invalid since god doesn't exist and because god doesn't exist, most major religions are inherently invalid since they are predicated on the assumption that god does exist. I mean, anime is socially unacceptable and invites negative responses from the public but at least anime exists, which is more than can be said for god.

To summarize: God = Invalid -> Religion = Invalid -> Learning languages in order to spread religions = Invalid reason.

Godless religions however would be considered an In-Dispute reason but if you're learning languages for philosophy, then that's obviously a valid reason.

What do you think?

[Zgarbas]

My opinion on religion aside, it should be noted that language learning for the spreading of religion purpose is an ancient habit which has proved time and again to be an invaluable resource for learning about languages which have changed/died out in the meantime. It's thanks to the church keeping track of their translations that we know so much about certain languages. Having the bible as a common referral is also highly convenient. Of course, now that most languages are written down and are studied world-wide the importance of this habit might have lowered, but still. Good practice.

I learn Japanese because I love it. But I assume such a summary will not suffice in a discussion of this particular nature.

Who determines what an "invalid" versus "valid" reason really is? On a greater spectrum we could of course draw parallells (i.e anime is not as academically highly regarded as reading the Tales of Genji or knowing how to operate a Japanese aircraft) but what about our individual reasons?

I would say, any reason to learn Japanese is the most valid reason in the world. Our reasons will probably differ greatly but they all have a key element in common: Desire.

Oh, and just to contribute to this thread, here is a compilation of reasons behind my interest in learning Japanese:


1. I want to read all those beautiful books. And I want to collect them and put them in a special bookshelf.

2. I want to be able to go to Japan and communicate seamlessly the same way I did when I moved to New York and could handle all my errands on my own and make American/English speaking friends right away.

3. I want to watch Japanese tv shows and understand all the jokes and what not.

4. I want more job opportunities.

5. I want to pass JLPT 1 and feel proud of myself because I tackled such a massive achievement.

6. I want my family to be proud of me.

7. But most of all... I love Japanese. It's a language that warms me up inside and makes me feel optimistic.

@qwerty I'm 29 and my wife (25/Japanese/married for 3yrs now), who never played games before we got married.. or watched anime, has never once called me childish etc for doing so. As a matter of fact, I actually converted her over She plays games more than me now, and we usually watch anime together. I must have the most backwards relationship ever.

I thought video-games/anime are socially acceptable media forms now.(Not for the older generation though) I know they weren't in the past... but now it is very hard for me to find a guy that doesn't play video-games in his spare time. I'm not talking about all day everyday... but at least occasionally.

As someone who spends a lot of time on the HTLAL forum, looking at your list I notice the lack of a whole number of reasons that have more to do with the Japanese language per se, rather than what can be achieved through the language (media, communication, cultural activities, etc.). Here are a couple hypothetical examples:

- a hobbyist polyglot who got tired of the Standard Average European scene and decided to go for a little challenge with an agglutinative, SOV-ordered, topic-prominent, mora-timed, pitch-accented language that employs a number of politeness levels and a mixture of three scripts, one of which is logographic;

- a linguist whose main research interest is Middle Persian, who studies Japanese in his free time simply because it is a modern language whose writing system has striking similarities with his beloved Pahlavi script (namely, both are mixed writing systems that uses logographs borrowed from an unrelated language to represent native words);

- a person who simply likes the way Japanese sounds when it is spoken, or the way it looks when it is written down.

I'm not entirely sure how to assess those reasons in terms of "social acceptability". On the one hand, purely intellectual or aesthetic pursuits are often viewed more highly than those connected to material gain, sexual gratification or amusement. On the other hand, as some aspiring polyglots can attest, there are people out there who view with suspicion those of us who are learning foreign languages without an obvious "practical" reason. Not to mention that the former two examples also have that "geek with no life" factor.

"... based on the views of mainstream society in general ..."

Nope. Based on your personal prejudices.

onafarm Wrote:"... based on the views of mainstream society in general ..."

Nope. Based on your personal prejudices.

What are my personal prejudices?

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Okay, so social judging exists? You can tell that to aphasiac.

Well no, prejudice exists. It's a cultural phenomena, not "social". It only becomes "social" if it's institutionalized (i.e. the government decides to ban something based on it). But you are talking about prejudice.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:However, the social judging is not because the person is learning Japanese, but because the person is doing it for an invalid reason (manga) and not for a valid one (architecture)?

I'm not aware of any cultural prejudice against learning languages. But I do know of prejudice against people who are obsessed with comic books.

Saying that someone looks down on you 'for being so obsessed with manga that you'd spend 2000+ hours of your time toiling away over textbooks just to be able to read original comic books' is not the same as saying that someone looks down on you 'for learning a language without a good reason'.

The first statement correctly identifies the motivation for the prejudice, the second one misses the mark by miles.

I do agree that the first statement is "prejudice" (which implies that it's wrong). Being interested in manga (even to the point that you'll make a huge effort to read it in original) is a perfectly valid personal choice, and people who judge you for it are wrong. It's not like being a rapist, a pedophile, or even worse an Adam Sandler fan, where people are right to judge you.

I don't like some of the justifications people gave for the 'invalid' reasons. To say that SOME people will look down on you because you're studying Japanese to do X and Y only testifies to the fact you're succumbing to peer pressure when it comes to these matters. There is really no 'right' or 'wrong' here, if you have a genuine interest in the language and you're willing to dedicate time to study it, good for you, anything else is irrelevant.

I also don't like the fact you put "animation" the way you did, demeaning the overall value of the majority of anime and manga out there, almost comparing it to western animation which is generally aimed towards children with some exceptions. I realize the first post is more about the 'views' of society rather than your own individual opinion. With that said, and I'm in no way attempting to discourage anyone, if it comes to a point where society makes you question whether your endeavors are worth it, then you shouldn't have started it in the first place.

I began studying Japanese for two reasons; my general interest in Japanese culture and my interest in languages. When people ask me why I study Japanese, my reply will often be "Because I want to study Japanese", when they ask me what I'll gain from it, I either say I don't know, or simply 'nothing'. I'm doing it for the fun of it with no real "reason", and anything I gain from it once it's done is an added bonus.

It's the truth, you won't really know what you will gain from learning another language until you have learned it. There are plenty of people who like to speculate what it would be like knowing a foreign language. The only justification that you need is that it is something you actually want to commit to doing. I've seen tons of people in college that liked the IDEA of learning Japanese, but when they found out the actual time commitment, they were very quick to latch on to something else. Those people should have never continued through college with Japanese as their major in the first place.

That's so true. Some stuff you can't even tell you like or not till you understand more japanese or grasp their culture or sense of humor etc etc. sometimes you won't even know the existence of some Japanese thing that you might like just bc it's not accessible/well known among English speakers. So you can say I don't know what I'll get out of it but ill find out. I'm sure anyone who has gotten near fluency found more reasons for learning japanese along the way or really far down the road. You shouldn't let the lack of reasons deter you from learning since you're just going to find reasons or things that you like that's japanese during your journey. And if you don't find anything then Obviously you give up. But I don't think that's possible with the internet

I judge people on their effort and their progress. Their reason is personal and I don't care about it.

Hashiriya Wrote:It's the truth, you won't really know what you will gain from learning another language until you have learned it.

This is true. I first became really interested in Japanese from listening to J-pop, to be honest, but after studying in college, I became really interested in Japanese literature.

blankkor Wrote:When people ask me why I study Japanese, my reply will often be "Because I want to study Japanese", when they ask me what I'll gain from it, I either say I don't know, or simply 'nothing'. I'm doing it for the fun of it with no real "reason", and anything I gain from it once it's done is an added bonus.

Are you sure it's not because you are learning Japanese for anime and avoiding negative reactions from the people asking?

Because the scenario you describe above makes you sound awfully passive-aggressive.

Perhaps my report/thread may have more validity than first meets the eye.