Hey folks,

I'm sorry to start off this type of topic, but lately I felt like I really need answers concerning many questions in my head. I feel like my personality is changing and all my values I valued so much. I thought they were good, but my personal circumstances sort of force me to change to survive the pain I'm going through right now better.
Something that has changed in me, is the concept of 'freedom'. My friends choked when I asked them to accept when I say goodbye to them without keeping me back from taking my own life. I would feel very depressed and like a bird kept in a cage if my friends could not accept that -- and in fact they cannot. They argue that suicide is escapism and capitulating in front of reality, but is this necessarily true in every case? The thought of deciding when to end one's life by oneself seems to be very pragmatic to me at the very moment; I'm an atheist and don't believe in god whatsoever.

※ I want to start a discussion here. I want to emphasize once again that I'm feeling good. I have read lots of philosophical books in the past weeks in order to make myself more stable and find something like a 'guide' through all the values and concepts and this idea of quitting came up in my mind. I simply want to know your opinions on it. Please don't worry (especially at the mods who have to handle this thread)!

If I took such trifles as death seriously, I’d have been dead long before I was born.

http://www.samurai-archives.com/deathq.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_poem
Don't forget to write one yourself.
http://video.qip.ru/video/view/?id=v13405213e3a

"The concept of freedom is sick if it includes not being free to take one's own life." Does that summarise your post well?

Of course your friends revolt against this. People who care about somebody would not want to lose them. It's the encaging but oh so beautiful- and also freeing!- force of love. In one's own freedom it is possible to harm others, and this is not different.
On a related note, isn't it paradoxical that suiciders who jump before trains in doing that scar many other people for life? There is an aspect of self-centrism about it.

KanjiDevourer Wrote:isn't it paradoxical that suiciders who jump before trains in doing that scar many other people for life?

No need to worry, trains will be forbidden soon.

Glad to see this topic come up since this same idea has been bothering me for years. I even consider this to be one of the greatest injustices of our time.

Personally, I feel there’s something wrong about guilt-tripping others for feeling this way. It’s one thing to suggest they go try therapy first, in case it’s just a short term issue but if they’ve been suffering for quite a bit of time (or have a illness or condition)....then it’s time to put aside your personal discomfort and let them end their own.

KanjiDevourer Wrote:“On a related note, isn't it paradoxical that suiciders who jump before trains in doing that scar many other people for life? There is an aspect of self-centrism about it.”

It may seem self centered but, what options are really open to them? If society would let doctors give them a painless injection then they probably wouldn’t use such methods.

This covers the topic better than I could ever hope to: http://suicideproject.org/2010/05/so-wha...-i-do-now/

Death as an escape, from what? The pains and hardships of life? If everyones going to kill themselves for something, the planet would be empty soon. Loosing some is hard, being forced into situations that there seemingly is no escape, and this being the only solution left one can think of, is too. But in many cases it is just plain wrong. Enduring the pain makes a person stronger, and I know what I am talking about.

My life, until a few years ago, was one big fight of life and death, and against dying. I lost so many that I used to love, some family, friends, and my own life more than 7 times. I could have given in, meaning suicide, but I kept alive. Sometimes only for the reason to exist, not living, but existence without dreams, hopes, wishes, and no goals to ever reach. And I fought, and fought, being brought down, I stood up again without better reason. Maybe having been so close to death, and due to circumstances in life, I could never value that I am still alive while others have been dying.

Life is constantly changing, you change, your environs change, and either you live with the memories and what you think you lost, or you give up. Yes it is a free choice to commit suicide, but the reasons leading to it, are not. They can be circumstances brought about from the outside, and doing it often enough, it leads to commiting suicide. But no one who is actually commiting it, will ever start to talk about it, they simply do. And a person is not planning on doing it, but doing it, when the time is ripe. The step itself seems easy, and at the very moment, or from the time on before it happens, and even though close if in case no one notices it, the person is feeling a freedom, no more worries, because the path is clear.

Though this is a bit of a vague description, but this is how it basically is, and I should know it. I was almost there, and I know the exact feeling, of this indescribable freedom that overcomes you, you are almost in peace with the world. But someone talked with me a short time before I was in the clear with myself, without knowing about my intentions, which probably saved my life. I let go of my feelings and told the person everything, and there was another type of freedom, a loss of weight thats been weighing on my mind. Had I not talked to the person, I would be long gone, and it would have saved me from enduring many more pains, physically.

But I am alive, and I would never cosider anymore, to do it. Though I would have no problem with dying tomorrow if has to be. Because I've had more chances to live, than is reasonable imho. in comparison to other good people who died. Even in the darkest of days there is something you can clinge to, if not someone, that lets you overcome everything.

And it leads you to live a stronger life, because you yourself become stronger, so unless it is not cancer or something that will let you die of a horrible death, live with the pain. Learn to enjoy it, yes, there can be joy even in pain. Though nobody should make this experience, but it helps, being ironical, cynical, hating the world for some time, it all can help.

What doesn't really help is the freedom to end ones life whenever it pleases a person. I am not saying it is a coward act, it is not, and nobody should ever say that. Because nobody can ever look into the people who did it, and their reason, because the world would never know. So, all this hubble bubble about suicide, stop thinking about it, and live your young life to the fullest.

And from a more philosophical point of view, there is no thing like freedom, because every step and every interaction changes the path we take in life. If not right now, then some day in the future, and this is a time no one can tell what happens. And concerning the future, you might have the freedom to kill yourself, right then and there. But you might also decide to life, but instead you decide against it, and on the next day you are out of luck, and being overrun by a truck. You die. So why force anything, it will happen anyway, and all else, expect a painful death, should not lead to anything close to suicide.

It's good to see that the topic is discussed in an honest matter without making jokes and cynical comments. I'm already active on this board for a while, which is pretty unusual for me, but the reason is that I think most people who come here often have something important to say and contribute. Thank you for enriching not only my life as a language learner, but also as a human being facing daily issues. I think this is the appropriate moment saying 'thank you all'.

@Hotpotato: Thank you for the link. The guy writes exactly the way I think about it. Every point. I guess it's nothing but sloppy when people say "there is always a way". Sometimes I feel that these people experienced too many good times in their lives, or, had bystanders, helpers, like parents, lovers, friends, who took their hand and walked a part of the path together. I can tell you, that in my life there are no such persons. I feel like this world is ways too large and the long-distance relationship I am maintaining mainly for the sake of it being my first love, is taking up all my power. I'm the engine of this relationship to continue and I cannot end it. Rationally, I know I have to quit this. It's sad and all, because I endured so long, waited patiently every day, so long already and all the waiting would be worthless. That would be sad, but rationally, with time I would overcome it. Frankly, the "there is always a way" saying pisses me off as much as "time heals wounds". I can tell you that this is the biggest lie friends have told me and fed me literally up. I tried. It does not work. Call me impatient concerning that matter... I simply cannot be rational about this relationship. The reason I agreed on it was my emotion. I knew that the love at the point two years back, would carry me and no matter how heavy the burden was, I could carry it as long as my partner was willing to do so, too.

My friends reacted in the very same way. They find something in me that is precious to them and something they need to a certain extent in their life. I also need them. It's a bilateral relationship. Nevertheless, the pain I'm facing now seems to be too difficult to overcome because the only solution is overcoming myself, what I am. I don't want to go into the details of the circumstances of my private life here so openly, but it's the only solution I can take to make me feel better and relieved again -- but I cannot change what I am. I feel good the way I am, but in order to make another person love me, I have to change. But I cannot.

The idea that I focus on more and more on is the following: with suicide you abate all your responsibilities and free yourself from the pain you cannot release elsewhere or in any other way. You don't even have to care afterwards, then, and thoughts like "Ah, you could have enjoyed travelling to X in X years if you had a job/money/etc." are ridiculous and superfluous on the whole, aren't they.

I guess another important point to make here is, that I never had values. Most of the time, I just did not care. I was an ass throughout the whole middleschool and lied to everyone, made everyone haves grudges against this and that person. I was good at it and nobody would realise I was telling lies. I guess what influenced and changed me was the partner I'm still loving now, who has hurt me immensly, and is still probably. It was like making my eyes see the colors of this world again and for the very first time in my life I could tell: yes, my existance is needed to someone so much. I did not felt especially possessed like an object, not a slave, but I felt, I found a person I belonged to and a person that belonged to me. This made me so strong, yet dependant on this person.

Another point I want to make here is that most people who have reached this mental level of checking everything, trying everything, struggling, are failing to fulfill what is indeed the best for them, because they don't know how to do it. I have to agree that jumping in front of a train is not something I would personally favour as many innocent people could get involved, or at least, every by-stander would suffer a shock/trauma. I don't possess such a right to make other's traumatised or feel hurt, although, like this one could revenge against humanity in general.

Throughout the years, the following rules have turned me into the person I am. Some refer to me as a generalising mesantrope, but the following rules have allowed me to survive until now and also will make me survive the following day. Perhaps for the course of the discussion and analysis of the question, the following might help to understand how I think and feel not only now but already for a very long time, pretty determined.

1. Everybody lies. I don't. Be honest, direct, even if it's hurtful.
2. Trust only one person -- yourself.
3. People do not change -- they adapt.
4. People are changed by their environs, surroundings and the circumstances of life.
5. People are willing to undergo this, because it's the less painful way to them.
6. In this state, people do only care about themselves. They are self-addicts.
7. In this terms, people are self-addicts.
8. God is dead. There is nothing waiting ahead of me after my death, no paradise.
9. My existance is senseless. Up until now, I continue to exist, because I think my existance is a biological present from my parents.*
10. Even though existance is senseless, if I'm not in pain I could wait until I find a sense to live for. If it's not for the sake of struggle**, existance is a one-time-thing on this beautiful planet.
11. Existance is suffering. (I'm not a masochist.)


*See, the paradox. I do think I'm a present and I love the way I am. On the other side, these rules are dry, theoretical and created with rationality.
**I.e. staying in bed for the day because you feel tired of being awake and sleep is the only thing you feel absorbed by.

I tend to agree with HotPotato, but I would like to hear more concretely about your circumstances.

I'm a person who cannot let go other persons. I can't tell why, but putting aside all the pains and odds, the disadvantages and all those defects my partner has and is not willing to improve, I feel so deeply committed to her. You might call that naive and belittle it as a teen-ish first love, but I feel much more to it. There is this magical part I cannot explain but that makes me feel so saturated and satisfied on the whole if we are together.
The point is, I'm searching for the cause of her change of values. She pretends to be polyamourous and I think it's only pretentious, as she admitted countless times she cannot love/satisfy two persons, being so different, at the same time, living in Western Europe and Japan, herself being in Japan. The change came very sudden. I think it was a 苦肉の策 for her kind of, because before that she was constantly suffering breakdowns, missing me, her life here... Now, being polyamorous, or saying it at least, she still loves me.
She accuses me that I cannot accept the way her love works to me, but hey, can she accept the fact that she is the only reason I continue breathing for? Probably not, because she is so narcisstic and self-centered. This is the unsolvable discrepancy both of us are facing.

[ファブリス]

Tori-kun Wrote:They argue that suicide is escapism and capitulating in front of reality, but is this necessarily true in every case? The thought of deciding when to end one's life by oneself seems to be very pragmatic to me at the very moment; I'm an atheist and don't believe in god whatsoever.

Some funny thoughts of late:

Why am I experiencing a "something" rather than nothing? ...

Where does this experience take place? In this room. This room is... in "Belgium". Where is Belgium? On planet "Earth". Where is Earth? In the Milky Way galaxy. Where is the Milky Way located? In the universe... which is space... and in what does, finally, this universe hang? Well.... it actually floats in nothing. Emptiness. Therefore it's exactly as the Buddhists say. Physicality is an idea. The world may very well animate as particles, light rays, neutrinos and what have you, all of which are observed to happen in nothing. Just something that makes me chuckle now and then...

You say you don't believe in God. But now what do you believe in exactly?

Science is the observation of regularities in what is already there. I think that's pretty huge and for me that's the end of run-of-the-mill "atheism" right there. Some atheists do get it. But very few do, I think. If you do get it, you wouldn't call yourself an "atheist".

What's very odd for me, is that this means devotion. It means awe. It means there truly IS something bigger than me. People who feel devotion or are into spirituality are not dumb. They are no less believing in fairy tales than the ones who believe that the "physical laws" actually run the universe, when they are just ideas we can up with to try and make sense of this mess in which we already find ourselves. We're so screwed, because the brain can only "map" reality. It can not truly know it.

So that's the danger with being an "atheist" imho. You're just fooling yourself that now, you know how the world truly is, how it works. You don't.

Alan Watts explains very well, how many ways of thinking today, even within "atheism" are still very much based on Christianity: the idea that we must strive for something, that we must pay a price (eg. You must sweat in order to be rewarded), this general idea that life is something in which you have to fight to earn your right to find peace or happiness, it's all BS.

Alan Watts - God, Atheism, Goo, Suicide

Alan Watts - Atheist Spirituality

I love Alan Watts he's got a great sense of humour.

Freedom huh? That's a difficult topic that people have been grappling with since civilization began, and I'm not sure we know any more now than we did back then. Everyone has their own concepts of freedom.

Should McDonald's be free to sell high calorie foods, even though they know it results in people getting fat and sick, dying sooner, having a lifetime of health problems which create an immense burden on society? Likewise, shouldn't an individual be free to choose to eat a Big Mac every now and then?
Should a woman be free to do what she wants with her own body? Should she be free to terminate a potential life growing inside her?
How far does freedom go? Should you be free to harm others? Should you be free to impose inconvenience on others? Where is the line drawn between harm and inconvenience?

Freedom to take one's own life? Ok... but should you really be free to impose that pain and anguish on others around you? Funeral costs? Medical costs in the event of a botched suicide? Unhealable mental wounds? Nearly everything that we do has an effect on others around us, for better or for worse. There is no escaping that fact.


I do want to just say thank you for this topic. As simplistic as it is, the mere fact of writing what I just wrote above has caused me to totally reevaluate my own concepts of freedom and my political views, due to just considering some simple concepts that I had never really thought about before.

Have you tried exercising? You seem really stressed out and the things you're worried about only have to bother you as much a you let them. I've been where you're at (except I hadnt even lost my virginity lol), you're not seeing things right, but getting out of this slump is going to feel amazing, I promise. Seriously, just stop what you're doing and go exercise for 30 minutes or smoke some weed because you're not thinking straight. This will put you in a better mood and help you see whats really worth the stress (nothing).

Suicide is an act that only the ego can comprehend. If you want to experience real freedom, become egoless. Then you can experience the universe as your personal sandbox, and there will be no use for platitudes such as "God is dead."

[ファブリス]

Well it's as you said, a "concept of freedom". True freedom can't work in an interdependent world. You are here because of your parents, who themselves were supported by the Earth, the atmosphere, the ground to stand on and so on. I'm not joking... it's quite freeing and stress relieving if you consistently (with some regularity) look into this and find how much you are truly responsible for.. it was for me anyway.

Freedom is a difficult (maybe impossible) concept to grasp.

There is no object called "freedom" out there in the universe. It is, like dignity or shame, a construct of human consciousness.

I know you said you have read a lot of philosophical material already, but allow me to recommend "Freewill" by Sam Harris. Based on what you have said about your belief system, it seems likely that his ideas will mesh well with you. In short, he claims that there is no freewill and hence no freedom in the typical sense. Your every move,, in fact, your every thought is determined by forces outside your control. The type of freedom that re describes in his book is similar to the freedom of letting go of the wheel and realizing you were never in control in the first place. All that effort you spent trying to pull the car left or right and the stress and disappointment you felt when you were unable to was unnecessary; you can free yourself from the burden of illusory control.

The book reminded me greatly of the viewpoint I had found for myself when I was in a low place and had a bottle of pills out on the coffee table everyday just in case I decided that that day was the day I would sit down and swallow them. The viewpoint that I had come to after a few months was that, from my perspective, it was best to treat everything outside my own actions as weather. If I don't like it, I can either get used to it , take some action to protect myself from it or move away to someplace with more preferable conditions, but I am only wasting time and energy trying to change it. Sam Harris just takes that one step further and applies the idea even to my own thoughts.

Life should end when our biological clock is up. You should spend more time aspiring for better days to come rather than regretting on what has already past. Humanity has reached many milestones, but it has yet to solve its many woes.

Life is harsh, and life is unfair. Freedom really doesn't have a true definition, but I do think that what we should all have the rights to do is things that are benign. Many people in this world are restricted from the necessities of life, the freedom of speech and press, and many other things. Humans are born as sympathetic creatures seeking nurture. Your friends not accepting such a decision by you are doing so because they are exactly that, your friends.

Humans for some reason have been the only beings on Earth to conceptualize a higher being. Clearly evolution has its dumbfounding proof to show that everything comes from simpler forms for even our own bodies are no more than the evolution of eukaryotic communities that began to constitute one body over 2+ billion years. Yet, it is still very true that all humans have ever accomplished appears to be based on universal ideas.

Despite this, I still hold to my Christian beliefs. Howbeit, I take many things into account. Here is my twist on the creation story.

I think that the Garden of Eden was the homeland of early Homo Sapiens from the African Sahara when it was still a lush forest climate. The 7 dayscould very well be storytelling shrinking of 4 billion years into more easily ascertainable quantities. The galaxy did start with "let there be light". This solar system did emerge when the sun was born and protoplanets started to crash and form the current remaining planets. Some planets may not have revolved completely on their axis until bombardment, which would have created day and night once the damn things started moving. Of course it's only because of the moon that we have a stable axis.

In the first day there was no form to the Earth. Well, the thing in the first billion years was constantly bombarded. There was no initial atmosphere. Now the "water" had no distinction from the "sky" I would imagine this could be some vague reference or misunderstanding of the water on comet like objects and the steam that came forth before condensing to seas.

Once the seas finally came about you saw the land left over. No one knew about microorganisms until relatively recently in human history, so obviously the first things on Earth to the naked eye were plants, and then animals came around. But it would be possible, perhaps, that photosynthetic organisms/the ancestors of plants, were photosynthesizing before the sun finally reached its current stage for the Earth quickly had the ingredients of life. Or, then again, it could be a storyteller getting things out of order. Fishes came before dogs. That's for sure. I guess the big-ass dragonflies were mistaken for birds--at least they both have wings. The sun was separated from other light at an interesting time in Genesis. I believe it was the 4th day. The sun came before the Earth had its precious moon, but plant-like life, could have survived the cataclysmic fusion of Earth with a Mars-sized planet. Or, we could be wrong and Earth could have just gotten the Moon into its orbit. Then the beasts came after the fishes and things with wings, then beasts. The first thing I think of is dinosaurs. Then, we're last. That only makes sense.

Our ancestors were probably the color of dirt. No skin color is still that far from the color of dirt, even white people. I'd blend real nice in sand. So, this may just be a dramatization.

So, this is my radical view of Genesis married with evolution. It definitely needs some polishing, but it makes sense. Our ancestors were driven out of the Sahara when the axis of the Earth titled oh so slightly to make it become a desert which forced them out--Adam and Eve leaving the Garden. The first murder(s) happened when people started having to fight other people--and other homonids unfortunate to not have joined our ancestors in the evolutionary tree. If only all of the Australopithecus groups were in close vicinity...

I mean, has anyone ever wondered how there were all of a sudden other people to kill off Cain? Hello, Homo Erectus groups anyone?

Most of the Bible is history of the Jewish people and human morals. Many of these morals still apply today, but for those that don't it is clearly mimicked in other surrounding societies at the time.

So, man has won the battle of evolutionary superiority. From my experience with religion, I do believe there is a greater force than ourselves. Without such an idea, man would have already killed itself by now. We all--or at least at one point--feel a sense of purpose. The afterlife may very well just be a recycling of our matter into the nothingness of the universe, but if it isn't and God is indeed holding the universe, I would rather be on that side just in case.

Anyways, Tori-kun, just keep hanging on. You seem to be a very nice individual. Just have some fun. Although you are atheist, you might as well pray for something to strike you--and it doesn't have to be lightning, it could be just revelation of some sort. You don't have to address it to any particular higher being, just "higher-ness" in the most vague description that the mind can think of.

Good luck.

ファブリス Wrote:So that's the danger with being an "atheist" imho. You're just fooling yourself that now, you know how the world truly is, how it works. You don't.

While you can't uniformly say something about a single group of people. I generally think that most atheists put their "faith" in the scientific process of testing and observing the world. Stating you are atheist or that you follow that line of thought does mean you "understand everything." On the contrary, it means you are basically accepting there will definitely be stuff don't know or understand in the world. I think this feeling of not understanding something scares the shit out of some people, so they fill that with faith/religion.

The difference between a 'person of faith' and an atheist is that the person with faith, when faced with difficult questions that they can't answer will turn to blaming/hoping/praying to something they can't see but believe is there. The atheist will merely shrug and say they have no clue; some may try to find answers if they are there, and if not, accept that.

Quote:If you do get it, you wouldn't call yourself an "atheist".

Atheist is a word to describe people who don't believe in god(s). If people have given this some sort of new life, then that's on them, and I guess on you for coming to feel that way too.

I have some issues with Fabrice's comments about atheism as well, but I think that conversation is best left for another thread.

Let me throw in my two cents.

I have always thought that if you plan on committing suicide, then you should feel completely free up until that time. For instance, if you plan on committing suicide next Saturday, then the time until next Saturday you can basically do whatever you want. Do something really scary. Go skydiving. Most people wouldn't be able to do it because it's too scary. But you have literally nothing to lose. Learn how to backflip. It took me 4 months because it's scary as ****, but you could probably learn it in a day. It doesn't matter if you fall on your head and hurt yourself. Go eat sushi everyday. If I knew I was going to die soon, I would probably eat every meal at 築地, haha.

tl;dr Go have some fun. Do something something scary.

Nagareboshi Wrote:Loosing some is hard, being forced into situations that there seemingly is no escape, and this being the only solution left one can think of, is too. But in many cases it is just plain wrong. Enduring the pain makes a person stronger, and I know what I am talking about.

I agree that in many cases suicide is preventable and that for many, enduring these feelings while trying to find a method that works will make them stronger and give them a greater appreciation for life; as it did for you. However, some individuals seem to be too deeply scarred to really be able to find true solace (I admit I could be wrong with this, perhaps everything is curable with the right psychologist, words or actions). Some deal with this agony for decades and others face incurable illnesses that have the minimal chance of survival and a high probability of increased pain and mortification. Again, I largely agree with your point. I just believe that there are also cases where this train of thought wouldn’t necessarily be true and it would be unfair to ignore the plight of these other individuals just because the majority of suicides are made too hastily.

imabi Wrote:Life should end when our biological clock is up. You should spend more time aspiring for better days to come rather than regretting on what has already past. Humanity has reached many milestones, but it has yet to solve its many woes.

For some individuals it’s not simple or even really all that doable to stop remembering their past. How about those who had forced themselves to stay alive in this state of thought for 20+ years because they felt guilty about hurting their family? In the case I’m thinking of, they had suffered severe abuse as a child and no matter what they did, they couldn’t shake of the psychological damage they had endured as a result of that. Eventually, she couldn’t take it anymore and she shot herself in the head. Why should someone be forced to stay alive or turn to these gory means if they only are going to suffer during the time? Because it hurts others? What about that person’s feelings then, why are they of less importance than others? Do people hold onto this view because they believe there’s always hope one day this person will feel better like nagareboshi had experienced and thus, they can suffer for decades if that’s what it takes for them to /maybe/ achieve it?

I just....don’t understand why at the very /least/, a terminally ill or elderly individual can’t have the right to end their life if they are suffering. I feel like I’m missing something obvious; to me, at it’s seems selfish and cruel to force them to be stay alive.

Personally, I believe that perhaps starting up a program where a person has to go to years of therapy [ignoring the terminally ill for this case] in order to get a painless lethal injection would probably reduce the amount of suicides. People turn to suicide because they feel helpless and that there’s no simpler way out than shooting themselves in the head or jumping of a bridge ect. If they were given the means to painlessly die then many may decide to stick around for at least so many more years of therapy. Perhaps it’s just a silly idea and I’m overlooking something important (besides the monetary issues) but I think something like that might work.

imabi Wrote:Life is harsh, and life is unfair. Freedom really doesn't have a true definition, but I do think that what we should all have the rights to do is things that are benign. Many people in this world are restricted from the necessities of life, the freedom of speech and press, and many other things. Humans are born as sympathetic creatures seeking nurture. Your friends not accepting such a decision by you are doing so because they are exactly that, your friends.”

When you think about it what really is “sympathy”? Is it truly a selfless emotion? Don’t we act on sympathy because we feel uncomfortable emotions and thus, it’s not really for the other person we’re acting for; it’s for ourselves. We want to reduce our personal pain. I’m not claiming this is a bad thing, in fact, that it can connect two otherwise separate beings it’s really an amazing and wonderful thing. If you look at psychopaths, you can see what happens in the absence of this ability to empathize with others. So the question is, what exactly is it about empathy that makes people react to another suffering and why? As I said earlier, I believe it is because we want to reduce our personal pain. We don’t care that a person dies, we care that a persons death makes us feel uncomfortable and sad. We don’t care that, that person had suffered; we care because that suffering makes us feel sad. Then in that case, is it really much more selfish for a person to commit suicide because they are in pain than for others to stop them because losing that person’s presence makes them uncomfortable?

@ Tori-kun I wish you the best of luck with your situation. Eight or so years ago I faced a somewhat similar situation; I was attached to a person as a human could be (though there was no romance in my case) and their personality started to become cruel as time passed on. We had been equals; that person had needed me and I needed them; I was happiest with that person and I couldn’t image life without them. However, I finally had little choice but to disconnect myself from them and although it hurt more than anything else I’ve ever experienced and I still miss them in a way to this day, I recognize that it was the best choice.

You’ll never stop missing them but over time, as long as you find ways to distract yourself, the pain can be minimized enough that you can feel happy again. That’s just my case of course but you already seem to be on the right track since reading psychological books is helping you feel better. Just mentioned my story in case it might give you hope that you can still find happiness after such a great loss (if you do decide to split from them anyway, it sounds like you’re strongly considering it already). Again, your situation is definitely different than mine but as long as you find methods that will work the same for you then it can be possible to make the wound ignorable. Time won’t heal the wound but it will make it easier and easier to ignore it. Again, I wish you the best of luck.

thisiskyle Wrote:I have some issues with Fabrice's comments about atheism as well, but I think that conversation is best left for another thread.

I agree. But that particular bit stood out and I hear similar arguments from people of faith that basically can't comprehend how atheists tend to view the world/reality. It rubs me wrong. But based on Fabrice's comments I feel like maybe there is a cultural gap here somewhere too.

There is too much interesting substance to discuss, so just something I picked out, not even directly related.

ファブリス Wrote:Where does this experience take place? In this room. This room is... in "Belgium". Where is Belgium? On planet "Earth". Where is Earth? In the Milky Way galaxy. Where is the Milky Way located? In the universe... which is space... and in what does, finally, this universe hang? Well.... it actually floats in nothing. Emptiness. Therefore it's exactly as the Buddhists say. Physicality is an idea. The world may very well animate as particles, light rays, neutrinos and what have you, all of which are observed to happen in nothing. Just something that makes me chuckle now and then...

Rather than 'locating' things in an empty space, the relativist thinks space is not really there (substantivalists say space is there independently of the objects, space as a 'substance'). Space (or actually, spacetime) is how we describe relations between objects, which are really there. It's a completely different debate which we probably should not go into here (the subject is broad enough already. Besides, your comments always deserve at least two threads of commentaries ). Human existence is more about relating to other humans than some would like it to be perhaps. There, with large jumps, I'm back to the boundaries of personal freedom vs. freedom of others.

I don't think this is a kind of "guilt-tripping" (Hotpotato), but an honest attempt at looking if there is complete freedom for everybody to take their life whenever they want. I think that latter is way too easy, for every fellow human has something beautiful to add to this world and I as their fellow would not want them to give up lightly.

Thinking about it, there are at least these things to consider w.r.t. freedom of life:
1. Human beings are valuable by themselves.
2. Close relatives value somebody.
3. (Depending on your viewpoint of course) There is only one life there for you, which is not a burden, but rather a beautiful opportunity.

Good morning, everyone. I hadn't expected so many of you to come over here and give me a reply that made me more thoughtful. Especially when I read the post of Hotpotato, I felt like I had to cry. A friend of mine is psychotherapist and he said once to me, long ago, "as long as people cry, they get ok. they can cry litres of tears and you ask yourself when it will stop, but then, they will, finally. as long as they cry, they function. if they stop, it's difficult getting them out of their mental nirvana." I think there is something true to his words, yet the tears I cried were barely tears.
As I'm graduated now and sitting at home the whole day, I decided to make up time giving replies to everything written in here.

Well, I'm a graduate of the German "Gymnasium", which is an equivalent to 高校・highschool. I want to become a doctor, I want to have to deal with people suffering cancer. I had worked a week in a hospital in the "oncological section (VI)" - where the terminal cancer patients are - and experienced a 30 years old mother dying. It was a pure physical reflection of what mental pain I had at the time, yet for her it was just the tumor in her whole body causing tremendous pain we tried to therapy with morphine. No therapy helped her. On one morning, when I entered the room with the doctor I was following, we could smell it already before the door that she was dead. It fascinated me somehow, this dead. It was strange to see her not breathing and not moving anymore, but I was not in a shock, although I had never seen a dead person before. The doctor that went along with me was really emotional and she urged to leave the room pretty soon. I think I do have the qualities and abilities to deal with such patients in an appropriate, i.e. medically professional and yet human, way, the doctor I attached myself to sort, had definitely not. The point of studying medicine in my country is simply, that if you don't get an average of 800/900 points or something as high as that on your final report, it's virtually impossible to study. I have 600/900 and do get pressurised a lot by my parents at the very moment. I only get pressure from them and they are truly an obstacle to me. Instead of motivating me they tell me how meaningless I am. Please don't tell me to love my parents. I'm over this.


@Fabrice: Thank you for your long reply I will watch the videos later. Thanks for the reference. I do believe in [i]nothing[/n]. I believe that my existance is senseless and coincidental (biologically/genetically) and that the purpose of living is having none. I have this attitude ever since the end of primary school already and it's difficult getting it out of my head. I do not know if this classifies me as "mentally disordered".

Quote:You're just fooling yourself that now, you know how the world truly is, how it works. You don't.

I'm pretty pragmatic about this one: I do know more of the world, than I do not know, or, I do know more about world than about god or anything transcendental. Whenever I tried to pray, I felt even more stupid than trying to calculate something physics, just trying to comprehend (I suck at physics xP).

Quote:People who feel devotion or are into spirituality are not dumb.

It depends on the degree they get absorbed by what they believe and to what extent their belief allows them to accept other people, love other people. Personally, I could not imagine having a relationship involving love, sexual aspects, with a female christian. I visited a private catholic school (because it's said to be the best, not because of my belief) and I DO know what catholicism is, really. No harm intended, though. Btw, whenever I'm reading the quotes of the Dalai Lama, I feel there is something right in them. I meditate sometimes, to sort out my thoughts. I feel like they tower of like skyscrapers in my head and sometimes I cannot sleep because I do not get an answer; especially when my partner tells me "You are making me feel heavy/I need time to think on my own" and just disappears on skype, taking away every chance for me to contact her...


@Zarxrax: Thanks for coming over I'm pleased to hear that I stroke you and made you thinking about something more indepthly.
If I answered the questions on McDonalds/termination of pregnancy here now, it would get slightly off-topic, but just for you knowing what I think about it, here you go.

McDonalds: nobody forces us to eat high calorie food. It gets offered. It's our personal decision to eat it. 99% of the people suffering 肥満症 are fine with it -- sometimes you see those people in McDonalds ordering horrendous amounts of fast food.. perhaps they are indeed in a vicious circle, but watching them eating this food én masse I feel they never really wanted to break out of this circle. Sorry for generalising here, I don't mean to offend anyone, but this is my perception. All in all, I'm against McDonalds because it's simply unhealthy.

Termination: from a doctor's point of view I have to say that I'm against it, but personally from my philosophy, I have nothing against it. What is life? For me life is something that you can perceive and experience in existance, someone you can share your life with -- i.e. a child, an adult. But not a baby, not one in a stomache.

About the "funeral cost": committing suicide should be something silent and not dramatic. One should be aware of the consequences lieing ahead of those who you leave behind. Personally, with the cost for my grave etc. -- I simply would not care, because those who will have to pay for it are not people I loved. I would just leave it to them, not giving a damn. The most excrutiating situation is probably when you fail to commit suicide and you get disabled, not being able to do anything, becoming dependant on those people who always ignored you -- and now devoting their whole life to you. This disgusts me so much.


@quincy: I'm pretty stressed out with finding a university that takes me with my marks now, yeah.. but all in all I'm pretty happy about having time for myself. I am not the most sportative type of person. I like sitting in front of my piano and playing one sequence as long as I can play it perfectly -- even if it takes 3 hours or so. I like painting and I will start soon as I got inspired lately again.
I wish I could get some weed. I think it's really something "scary" as partner55083777 said. Just don't know where to get it and it's illegal here, btw. (Don't care about it really, though) I ride the bicycle often and sometimes go swimming.

@shadysaint: I was a self-less person once and realised that I was exploited, so... No, not ever again-.-

@thisiskyle: Thanks for the recommendation!! I will check it out at some point, but I do not know if I can get that book in Germany, since I'm not using Amazon.

@imabi: Thanks for coming over.

Quote:Life should end when our biological clock is up. You should spend more time aspiring for better days to come rather than regretting on what has already past.

It's clear to me that this is said by someone who shares the christian belief. I cannot agree with that; please check the link Hotpotato also sent previously. Basically, I'm asking myself why should I suffer for better days to come if the bad days overweigh everything? Some people might just never get happy. It's a fact.

@partner55083777: Thanks for encouraging me! I am just so dissatisfied with my skills, those things I am so good at (languages/piano), that I want to invest more time in learning and practicing than doing something just "fun". Life was preached to me never to be fun but hard work. And if you don't work, you die. My grandfather used to joke about the signature about the Auschwitz KZ by the nazis which said "Arbeit macht frei" (Work makes you free). He always used to say "Arbeit macht froh" (Work makes happy). I guess in some cynical way there is something true to it, although of course you cannot compare to Auschwitz...
An important point I want to mention here is that sometimes I feel paralysed; empty and filled up with lead at the same time, so that I cannot move. I feel like staying in bed and infact, I have done that so often multiple times already.

@Hotpotato: As already stated, I was very touched by what you wrote especially. Now, at the end of this post, I could decipher what touched me so much and it was your talk about sympathy, affection and attention you pay to a person. I feel I am constantly lacking this attention in my love relationship. It would be different if there was no distance in between, I know for sure. Even though our concepts of love would be different, it would be easier to live with "ethical agreements" to protect each other in what we are and CAN respect based on our morals and ethical perspectives. I'm just tired of waiting -- and in general, I'm a very patient person.
It hurt very much, when she told me that "sympathy makes weak or is a product of weakness.", when she asked me to overcome pain and suffer by myself. It's like I have asked her for giving me her hand to stand up and she instead of helping me tread me further into hell.

I just need a new "shell", a new personality, I can live in. And I desperately try to build it like using lego components. (Sorry for that metaphor)

@KanjiDevourer:

Quote:I think that latter is way too easy, for every fellow human has something beautiful to add to this world and I as their fellow would not want them to give up lightly.

No, I don't think every person can contribute something to a universal radiant rainbow. I think some people have really no meaning/sense in life and cannot contribute anything.

I wish I could just be another person, at least concerning the concept of love, at the very moment. I sometimes hate myself for loving someone the way I do. Let me explain this part here, because I guess it contributes a lot to the understanding of why I'm in such a crisis.

I'm against marriage. I don't want to be possessed, I only want to be a number one priority in someone else's live. I want to be someone a person commits herself towards to 100% like to no-one else. In this term, I am pretty much monogamous. I want to share my life with only one person in terms of living together somewhere and sharing a bed together. I want to wake up in the morning only beside one person and enjoy the sunrays on my face waking me up. This is like a treasure full of jewels to me I discovered now in my first love relationship and this is something fundamental about me that will never change and I could never share with someone else. The change I underwent up until now in the previous months, allows me to accept emotional sharing of love, but not a physical one, somehow.. I feel disgusted knowing that the person I love would melt into another one, sharing liquids and this pleasure. Especially, now that I'm on distance, I feel like I was substituted and it simply feels unfair. Why would she make me deliberately jealous/hurt? This is something very difficult to grasp for me.
I guess I would not defend myself against starting a new relationship up here with a girl. I would not protect myself against the feelings of love and attraction I could feel. What hinders me, however, is that fact that I am afraid becoming as half-hearted when it comes to love on distance as my partner. Then the connection would be lost forever, finally.

I recognise that I do love my two friends. I have only those two and it's more than friendship to me. I really love them, emotionally only. I don't feel sexually attracted to them in any way, but I have this very strong connection to me, that allows me saying: I love them.

Tori-kun Wrote:I just need a new "shell", a new personality, I can live in. And I desperately try to build it like using lego components. (Sorry for that metaphor)

@KanjiDevourer:

Quote:I think that latter is way too easy, for every fellow human has something beautiful to add to this world and I as their fellow would not want them to give up lightly.

No, I don't think every person can contribute something to a universal radiant rainbow. I think some people have really no meaning/sense in life and cannot contribute anything.

I am truly sad to hear that; I have yet to meet such people and I certainly hope you don't consider yourself (or your current "shell" as you apparently call it) as such. And if you do, you created this thread which is valuable to a lot of people already - what else can I say? People often do not see beauty although there is in my view. Some things, events, are absolutely ugly, terrible, but I can only stress that there is no light without darkness.

I did not read everything because I do not have time, but I sure will. Thanks, Tori, others.