Interesting article, thoughts?


"Yes, I can use chopsticks: the everyday 'microaggressions' that grind us down"

By DEBITO ARUDOU
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/fl20120501ad.html

Its Debito, need anyone say more. His articles always read like borderline-tinfoil conspiracies that everything the Japanese do to a foreigner is in some way discriminating against them.

Did you read the article though?

I came across this article a while back. I don't live in Japan, but I thought it was BS. The credibility of the article was so low for me that I stopped reading in the middle.

Seamoby Wrote:I came across this article a while back. I don't live in Japan, but I thought it was BS. The credibility of the article was so low for me that I stopped reading in the middle.

I would probably say the same thing before I lived in Japan. I think it kind of rings a certain bell with people who lived in Japan for more than a few years.

"Dr. Sue's research"...Too close for comfort if you ask me.

I've seen this article before and there is some truth to it but a lot of the points seem overblown. The ～さん thing for example, I get called "Kyle" by most of my co-workers who call each other ～先生. The likely reason for that is that that's what I would be called by my co-workers if I were living in America. The other teachers know this and are doing it to make me feel comfortable. They still call me 先生 in front of the students or when talking about me to an outside party just like they would use Mr. in similar situations in America. Now I understand the point of the article is not to say that anyone is doing anything intentionally (if fact it's saying the opposite) but that its harmful nonetheless. But in my book, if you take people trying to cater to you out of kindness as being insulting or offensive, that's your problem, not theirs.

The article suggests that it would be preferable if Japanese people did not assume that every "NJ" was a tourist and instead treated them like they were born and raised in Japan. Not only is that non-intuitive, it's counter productive. If I sit down at a restaurant and am brought an English menu by default should I cry prejudice for not being assumed to be able to read Japanese? If the restaurant's policy were different, the waiters would more often than not have to make two trips which doesn't seem like a lot but it adds up over time and could really annoy them, probably more than getting handed an English menu from the start would annoy me. blah blah

Yea the article directly from Psychology Today might be better to discuss because Debito seems to get people stirred up a lot.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/micr...ryday-life

Do you guys think this research applies to foreigners living in Japan?

kitakitsune Wrote:Did you read the article though?

Yes I skimmed it over and it reads like most of his regular stuff.

I understand the point he's trying to get at, which is mostly educating people of "Hey! Theres a word for when people go "Wow! Your Japanese is good!" after you say hello, and you feel offended." But that level of nitpicking just seems absurd. There are other things you could devote your time to.

All of his articles have this tone. I can't help but wonder if they ever get published in Japanese to for Japanese readers (where he really needs to be tooting his horn). Or if he's always publishing in English rags in a circle jerk manner.

thisiskyle Wrote:The ～さん thing for example, I get called "Kyle" by most of my co-workers who call each other ～先生. The likely reason for that is that that's what I would be called by my co-workers if I were living in America. The other teachers know this and are doing it to make me feel comfortable. They still call me 先生 in front of the students or when talking about me to an outside party just like they would use Mr. in similar situations in America.

I would personally be insulted if a Japanese person thought I could not handle such an incredibly simple and important aspect of their culture and language. Do you call your co-workers by their first name only?

Unless we were speaking English where it is cool to do this.

kitakitsune Wrote:I would personally be insulted if a Japanese person thought I could not handle such an incredibly simple and important aspect of their culture and language.

I would be too if that were the case. But I don't think anyone thinks I "can't handle it". There are plenty of things that a person can handle that are not natural to them. It's my understanding that they are trying to make me more comfortable, not that they think I am incapable of understanding name suffixes.

To answer your question; no, I don't.

kitakitsune Wrote:I would personally be insulted if a Japanese person thought I could not handle such an incredibly simple and important aspect of their culture and language. Do you call your co-workers by their first name only?

Unless we were speaking English where it is cool to do this.

Incidentally, I'm also a teacher in Japan, and a lot of teachers ask me to call them by their first name, and I do. When a new gym teacher came in April she introduced herself as Tomoko, even though she doesn't actually speak English. So I call her Tomoko, even in Japanese. This has happened with at least 15 teachers over the years.

(Also, interestingly, the way you evaluate how someone should be treated in a foreign culture is an aspect of your culture. In your culture you might believe that a foreigner in another culture should be treated similarly to a native of the culture. But other cultures don't necessarily think that way.)

thisiskyle Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:I would personally be insulted if a Japanese person thought I could not handle such an incredibly simple and important aspect of their culture and language.

I would be too if that were the case. But I don't think anyone thinks I "can't handle it". There are plenty of things that a person can handle that are not natural to them. It's my understanding that they are trying to make me more comfortable, not that they think I am incapable of understanding name suffixes.

To answer your question; no, I don't.

Then are they not thinking that calling you Kyle-sensei would make you uncomfortable?

Seems to me that they think you cannot handle being called Kyle-sensei, that it would make you uncomfortable, and in order to make your life comfortable in Japan they should therefore address you in a western style.

Tzadeck Wrote:Incidentally, I'm also a teacher in Japan, and a lot of teachers ask me to call them by their first name, and I do. When a new gym teacher came in April she introduced herself as Tomoko, even though she doesn't actually speak English. So I call her Tomoko, even in Japanese. This has happened with at least 15 teachers over the years.

(Also, interestingly, the way you evaluate how someone should be treated in a foreign culture is an aspect of your culture. In your culture you might believe that a foreigner in another culture should be treated similarly to a native of the culture. But other cultures don't necessarily think that way.)

Just to clarify, your teachers specifically asked you to call them by their first name only without adding 先生?

The problem we are talking about is 呼び捨て. Using a person's first name with an honorific is perfectly normal in Japan. But I've never heard of a Japanese person, who wasn't a really close good friend, asking a foreigner to 呼び捨て them when talking in Japanese.

As in, "don't call me Tomoko-sensei, call me Tomoko"...?

This conversation got annoying and useless real fast.

I'm still curious.

kitakitsune Wrote:I'm still curious.

Tomoko didn't specifically tell me not to call her さん or 先生, but other teachers have. I call one teacher just Akemi and another Eriko, even though we actually aren't even that close (both speak a little English, but are not English teachers, and we speak primarily in Japanese).

And actually, teachers don't really call each other name+先生 all that often anyway. Teachers who have had any kind of interaction with each other usually call each other name+さん and sometimes simply 先生. They might call another teacher name+先生 if they've barely or never really talked before.

Also, plenty of Japanese people have told me not to use an honorific with their name after the first or second time meeting them, so I don't know why you've never heard of that before. I've even gone on to call them name+さん only to be reminded that they don't want me to use the honorific.

Tzadeck Wrote:Tomoko didn't specifically tell me not to call her さん or 先生, but other teachers have. I call one teacher just Akemi and another Eriko, even though we actually aren't even that close (both speak a little English, but are not English teachers, and we speak primarily in Japanese).

That's very interesting. I've never had a coworker in Japan like that.

But still, we were talking about 呼び捨て and you are talking about people who have specifically asked you to do it to them. It's a little different than just doing it to the random foreigner you meet who hasn't asked you to do it.

Tzadeck Wrote:And actually, teachers don't really call each other name+先生 all that often anyway. Teachers who have had any kind of interaction with each other usually call each other name+さん and sometimes simply 先生. They might call another teacher name+先生 if they've barely or never really talked before.

Yes I know that but they do not 呼び捨て each-other. Some might, but they usually are the same age and have really close personal relationships outside of work.

Tzadeck Wrote:Also, plenty of Japanese people have told me not to use an honorific with their name after the first or second time meeting them, so I don't know why you've never heard of that before. I've even gone on to call them name+さん only to be reminded that they don't want me to use the honorific.

I mentioned this when I mentioned that only good friends do it. It's probably a good sign to you that they consider you to be a good friend or that they want to be your friend in the future.

When a Japanese person asks you to 呼び捨て is different for each person. I was just being safe when I said that only really close friends do it as that is the general rule.

Taking offense where none is intended. Did I get the the TL-DR of the article correct?

This microagression sounds like an individual issue. If the small stuff is wearing at you, then start commenting on it early on before it gets out of hand. However, it's high arrogance to presume that a Japanese person should treat you differently before knowing a damn thing about you. An interview with Debitou at a restaurant showed he's rude to waitress cause she DARED speak English to two guys speaking English in their personal conversation. Hard to take the opinions of some on with a thin skin too seriously no matter how important the court case he won.

Yea really should have posted the Psychology Today article instead of Debito's interpretation of it.

But can anyone in the community here say with a straight face that they were not thinking about 日本語上手、お箸上手、納豆たばられる and other similar comments they've received in Japan while reading the PT article?

I'd like to see if we can have a conversation about if we think the research is legit and if it applies to us in Japan and if so, is there anything we can do about it on a personal level?

Nukemarine Wrote:An interview with Debitou at a restaurant showed he's rude to waitress cause she DARED speak English to two guys speaking English in their personal conversation. Hard to take the opinions of some on with a thin skin too seriously no matter how important the court case he won.

I saw that too and didn't think it was rude at all.

It was like this right?

*dudes talking in English
*waitress comes over with menu
Waitress: Hi we have special on nachos today!
Debito: Nachos?
Waitress: Yes....
Debito: (long sentence of Japanese)
Waitress: (Attempt to answer in English)
Debito: (In Japanese) "I'm speaking Japanese right?"
Waitress: Ohh! 失礼します

You're still being pretty close-minded in your responses kitakitsune. You're accepting some points thisiskyle and I made, sort of, but then rephrasing them so that they continue to confirm your standpoint that the way foreigners are addressed is inappropriate.

thisiskyle Wrote:I get called "Kyle" by most of my co-workers who call each other ～先生.

This grated on my nerves when I was an ALT. I had one coworker who was quick to correct me when I mistakenly called him ～さん instead of ～先生, but he was happy to 呼び捨て me by first name for the year and a half we were working together.

For a lot of Japanese teachers, ALTs are on a status level about equal to office equipment, and one wouldn't use ～さん to talk about the copying machine unless they were trying to be cute.

Tzadeck Wrote:You're still being pretty close-minded in your responses kitakitsune. You're accepting some points thisiskyle and I made, sort of, but then rephrasing them so that they continue to confirm your standpoint that the way foreigners are addressed is inappropriate.

To be honest, I don't think you were following the conversation before you posted. We were talking about 呼び捨て. "Kyle" instead of "Kyle-sensei", "Kyle-san", "Kyle-kun" or any other possible form of honorific.

You came in talking about how 15 teachers asked you to call them by their first name and we only find out a few posts later that you only address two of them without honorifics and they specifically asked you to do it.

amirite?

JimmySeal Wrote:This grated on my nerves when I was an ALT. I had one coworker who was quick to correct me when I mistakenly called him ～さん instead of ～先生, but he was happy to 呼び捨て me by first name for the year and a half we were working together.

Did you tell him to start calling you 先生? Because I would have. He sounds like a dick.