I don't know what people's personal stories / background are but the way I see it, I came into this country from the bottom and that's how it is, if I don't like I can just take my stuff and get back home. Do I want that? No. I am still here struggling with the language so if they find it incredible that I can use chopsticks or won't append san to my name I will definitely put up with it. I am absolutely sure most of them don't intend harm.

However, at some point, I know ,I will be speaking Japanese fluently and when that happens, things will start to change because I will communicate my needs to the people I interact with. Even in this age of technology, no one can't read minds so I can't expect new Japanese people that I meet to treat / bond with me in a non-stereotypical way at first or without me being open. It's impossible that they will assume the very odd ball that I can speak Japanese and wish to blend in their culture.

JimmySeal Wrote:I just see it as a distasteful weeabooism, like saying "keitai" instead of "cell phone" when one's speaking English (I know a lot of people who do this too).

Is this really a weeabooism for people living in Japan? People using Japanese words in foreign countries--especially ちゃん or かわいい--definitely stinks of weeaboo, but in Japan I know plenty of people who slip in Japanese words that I wouldn't describe as weeaboos.

Tzadeck Wrote:

JimmySeal Wrote:I just see it as a distasteful weeabooism, like saying "keitai" instead of "cell phone" when one's speaking English (I know a lot of people who do this too).

Is this really a weeabooism for people living in Japan? People using Japanese words in foreign countries--especially ちゃん or かわいい--definitely stinks of weeaboo, but in Japan I know plenty of people who slip in Japanese words that I wouldn't describe as weeaboos.

I hate the term and concept of "weeaboo" in general -- I can't stand the dick-size-comparing that some foreigners in Japan do trying to show how they're more deserving of being in Japan or studying Japanese for a "real" reason, or whatever.

Having said that, in my experience, many foreigners in Japan use some Japanese words when speaking English to others in Japan, and "keitai" is one of the most common of those. I have never seen it restricted to anime fans, kids, or anything else like that.

I think it`s just a slight conditioning of living here. I answer my phone むしむし even when it`s English speaking friends. I seriously doubt anyone thinks about it. It just happens.

Like the way no one says "Can I have your business card?" They`ll say "Can I have you meishi?"

I think it`s a case of these are some of the first Japanese words that people tend to learn, so they stick even when speaking your native language.

callmedodge Wrote:I think it`s just a slight conditioning of living here. I answer my phone むしむし even when it`s English speaking friends. I seriously doubt anyone thinks about it. It just happens.

What's with this fascination with bugs that people need to mention it when they answer the phone?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Found this topic interesting, so I thought I'd add something (first ever post on this forum ^^)

I'm currently living in Japan. Spent 3 months living and working in Okinawa, and am now in Hokkaido on a horse farm in いなか.
I personally don't see any problems with interchanging between the two languages as I speak, and I don't understand why some people do. (I usually just pick whichever language allows me to say what I want in the least amount of words )

Going back to people not adding a suffix to your name, I also find it a bit annoying. I would prefer people add さん to my name when they first meet me. However when I was working in Okinawa some of my co-workers simply called me by my first name without adding さん right from the beginning (I don't mind so much being addressed by my first name as most Japanese people struggle with my last name even when seeing it written in katakana). The co-workers that did originally use the suffix or called me by half of my last name + suffix quickly switched to just my first name after hearing the others While I didn't like it, not much I could do about it with my Japanese being so limited and not wanting to get on the wrong side of my bosses. On the other hand though, many of my co-workers used each others last name's but didn't add a suffix either.

Also, @callmedodge, I hope むしむし was just a typo, because otherwise you've been telling everyone it's humid rather then saying hello (もしもし)

もしもし doesn't mean hello either. It's just made up nonsense designed to test audibility over a phone connection.

Technically

Oh? I thought it was also an interjection you can use to get someone's attention (in a store for example) rather then just on the telephone?
Also, even if it is "just made up nonsense" surely it's widespread use has made it an actual word? Isn't that how many new words become words?

kitakitsune Wrote:もしもし doesn't mean hello either. It's just made up nonsense designed to test audibility over a phone connection.

Actually, it DOES mean hello. Hello was originally primarily a way to get people's attention, not a greeting. "Good morning," "Good day," "Good evening," etc., were greetings.

"Hello" was popularized by the telephone, not the other way around. It was not a common greeting until the late 1800s.

It comes from 申し申し, so it's not entirely nonsense in origin. I think it's a word, and yes, you can also use it to get someone's attention but not "in a store". It's not a polite "Excuse me", it means more like "Hey, you're spacing out!" or "Are you paying attention to me!?" It would sound very strange to say it to a random person.

I learned that もしもし came from the saying 「 これから私が申し上げます、申し上げます」 at the beginning of a call. It was a test of the phone connection and a signal to the other party that the conversation was about to start.

This was back in the days when all calls were routed through an operator.

Overtime 申し上げます、申し上げます got shortened to 申す申す as more working class people who didn't speak keigo all the time got phones and finally to a really cut up もしもし.

And I agree that "hello" is a bad translation. Or at least one with very limited applications.

Tzadeck Wrote:

JimmySeal Wrote:I just see it as a distasteful weeabooism, like saying "keitai" instead of "cell phone" when one's speaking English (I know a lot of people who do this too).

Is this really a weeabooism for people living in Japan? People using Japanese words in foreign countries--especially ちゃん or かわいい--definitely stinks of weeaboo, but in Japan I know plenty of people who slip in Japanese words that I wouldn't describe as weeaboos.

I wasn't suggesting that weeaboos are the only people who do this, simply that it's a prominent feature of weeaboo behavior and that's one of the things that makes it so obnoxious when anyone does it.

In fact, most of the people I see referring to cell phones as "keitais" are people who only know about 30 Japanese words, so it smacks of "Aren't I so clever? I can mix Japanese language conventions into my speech!" What's the point?

About microagressions

What do people actually think is going to happen when they decide to move across the world and settle down in one of the world's most ethnically homogeneous nations?

Not saying there is no racism problem in Japan or anything. Japan has it's issues.

However, in my Japan experience, there are way too many foreigners (usually white males who like anime - no offense, I like anime too) who think they are entitled to some kind of dream life in Japan. And when things don't work out they lash out against Japanese society real hard....usually starting by looking for acts of racism EVERYWHERE.

I'm not sure if this phenomenon has a name or not.

When you live in a country that you didn't grew up in and the language you speak on daily basis is not your native one, you naturally tend to insert into conversations in your native language (which obviously are less frequent than what you hear and speak everyday) those most common foreign words. This happens to all immigrants/expats regardless of country of origin and destination, it seems. And it is a matter of will and persistence to resist those easy choices, and use your native language in it's pure form. Maybe it's a skill, who knows.

Regardless, it always makes a bad impression on me when my Polish friends choose to use English words when talking to me. In a way I think that they are just being lazy and because of that they quickly lose a bit of respect that I might have for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_switching

I haven't been in Japan as long as the author, and I'm also in Tokyo where foreigners are common, but I don't feel at all like the author is describing. The micro-aggressions are nothing more than just generalizations. It's rare for a Japanese person to meet a white person who has lived in Japan for a long time. They end up making generalizations based on this fact. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way it is. Once more white people start living in Japan, Japanese people will probably stop making these generalizations.

I haven't really noticed much racism in any form, but then again I live in Tokyo. One thing that's gotten on my nerves recently is talking to cashiers/waiters when I'm with an Asian friend.

I'll go to buy something and my Asian friend will come up to the register next to me. When I ask the cashier a question, the cashier will turn to my friend and answer the question. I'll then follow up with another question and the cashier will turn to my friend and answer. They won't look at me when they are answering my question.

This really annoyed me for a while, but I got a pretty good explanation from another Japanese person. The reason they don't look at me when they are answering me is not out of any malice, but purely out of embarrassment. A surprising large number of Japanese people have NEVER talked to a white person. When talking to a white person, they are actually just really embarrassed.

I'd still like them to talk to me, but I feel okay with this explanation. I'd probably do the same thing if I was in their shoes.

JimmySeal Wrote:In fact, most of the people I see referring to cell phones as "keitais" are people who only know about 30 Japanese words, so it smacks of "Aren't I so clever? I can mix Japanese language conventions into my speech!" What's the point?

they may only know 30 words, but I don't think most people speak like this as an attempt to be cool. Referring to mobile phones as keitais is pretty much universal among foreigners in japan. same goes for konbini, meishi, various foods and plenty of other things. I think the reason is that generally when you use/buy/whatever these things the exchange usually happens in japanese. In a japanese restaurant, you order foods in japanese, you generally exchange meishi with japanese people, konbini is used like a place name (for a place called konbini), and so on. Should someone really have to translate everything back into english just because they are talking to an english speaker? what if the other person knows these words? Seriously who says "I'm going to the convenience store to get a riceball"? It's unnatural. Who translates karaage to fried chicken?

re OP
I think if I met someone who is obviously foreign (because of their accent) in Australia, I'd probably ask them where they're from. If they just arrived, I might ask them how long they intend to stay. If I knew they were in the process of learning English, I might complement them on it. All these things are totally logical things to say in certain situations. You might get sick of having to repeat certain conversations, but that doesn't mean its motivated by some kind of underlying 'aggression.'

yudantaiteki Wrote:I hate the term and concept of "weeaboo" in general -- I can't stand the dick-size-comparing that some foreigners in Japan do trying to show how they're more deserving of being in Japan or studying Japanese for a "real" reason, or whatever.

well, weeaboo has nothing to do with studying japanese, it's more used for the anime/manga crowd and people who are pro-japan in everything they do with their knowledge base coming strictly from those media.

it's actually arguable that not knowing japanese makes them more of a weeaboo.



speaking of konbini/keitai etc...
i used to play a lot of street fighter, tournaments and stuff. and it's funny, when i'd talk to other players about it, i'd have to switch to american pronunciation of names so they understand who i'm talking about. kazuya becomes ka-ZOO-ya, sakura becomes sah-KOO-ra, ibuki becomes ii-BOO-ki. if i said their names properly people would get confused. "who?"

it was all good though, 'cause in the end i just wanted to talk about street fighter.

Should be racism (if this is the case...and I don't think so) contextualized? Because if you really think so, then the old women who lived near my apartment wasn't racist. She just kept saying that if your skin is not white, then you're a thief/what else. But hey: "She wasn't used to foreigner. She spent her whole life surrounded only by white people who spoke her dialect, everything it's fine! If there were more foreigners in her country, this episode would not happen anymore". Really? Come on...I don't think that "they're not used to big white/black men" argumentation is a very solid one, lol.

*exits troll mode*

Being said that I don't think that those mentioned behaviors are racist or what. Even if the 呼び捨て annoys me, I think it is a linguistic issue rather than a cultural one. I asked my wife why everybody 呼び捨て me, and only me, when I meet someone new to a party with some Japanese friends. The people at the party meet my Japanese friends and me at the same time, in the same place, but they choose to 呼び捨て me, and me only. My wife said "it would sound unnatural using -san/-kun after your not Japanese name"...So I concluded that I should cope with it and there is no malice in what they do. My 2 cents

nadiatims Wrote:Should someone really have to translate everything back into english just because they are talking to an english speaker?

They wouldn't be translating. They'd just be speaking English.

Quote:Seriously who says "I'm going to the convenience store to get a riceball"? It's unnatural.

I do. Maybe saying "riceball" is a bit of a contrivance, but there's nothing unnatural about "convenience store."

Shakunatz Wrote:My wife said "it would sound unnatural using -san/-kun after your not Japanese name"

If you bought that line and were able to write it off as a linguistic rather than cultural issue, then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

JimmySeal Wrote:If you bought that line and were able to write it off as a linguistic rather than cultural issue, then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

I feel like this is a very bad comment. It adds nothing to the discussion and it sounds like you are talking down to Shakunatz.

In my personal experiences, I can see how Shakunatz's wife would be correct. After speaking Japanese for a long time, there are some things that just sound weird. For instance, putting "-san" after my own name sounds weird. Shortening my name and adding "-chan" or something sounds alright, but my name just doesn't sound good with "-san".

As far as 呼び捨て goes, I've never felt any malice in it. On the contrary, I always feel like the other person is trying to create a closer relationship by using my first name. I feel I'm being given special treatment that another Japanese person would not be getting. I've always thought of this as a good thing.

Somebody else said it earlier in the thread, but if you're looking for racism, you're bound to find it. But I think there's a quote that goes like, "99% of actions you think are from malice, are really just from stupidity". I think this is true in this case. It's stupid to call 99% of these things "micro-aggressions", when really it's just how all people would naturally act.

(Being convicted of stealing because you're a foreigner would obviously fall into that 1% that is actually racism.)

JimmySeal Wrote:I do. Maybe saying "riceball" is a bit of a contrivance, but there's nothing unnatural about "convenience store."

I can't say I use the word convenience store in English.. I usually say the name of the one I'm going to. Maybe it's more an English thing than American. So saying convenience store for me would be as weird as saying konbini. Even then I'd usually just say Lawson or whatever the closest store was.

I think Keitei is used to distinguish Japanese phones from other phones foreigners may have. I think that was quite common as an exchange student.

The 日本語上手！ got tiring at first, but then I didn't even notice it. Kind of like being stared it, it is what it is, I'm wasn't about to let it worry me. I mean I heard a Japanese friend say it to a Chinese friend, who was clearly fluent and was doing her full degree at my exchange Uni, so it's not like she sucked or anything. It's just a set complement / thing that they say. Just say thank you, or not yet i still suck, and the conversation changes without even another mention.

partner55083777 Wrote:I feel like this is a very bad comment. It adds nothing to the discussion and it sounds like you are talking down to Shakunatz.

I'm sorry, would have been better if I'd said "My word, I do think you are being very naïve, my good man."?

The notion that honorific suffixes only exist to be attached to Japanese names is a load of horsecrap. It's just not true. If a lot of people have convinced themselves that honorary suffixes just don't fit with foreign names, then that is cultural, not linguistic.

JimmySeal Wrote:

nadiatims Wrote:Should someone really have to translate everything back into english just because they are talking to an english speaker?

They wouldn't be translating. They'd just be speaking English.

In a sense yes, but in the case of Japanese words which have made it into the English language, that's also speaking English, and further translation is a waste of time any way you slice it... I'm just clarifying; there aren't many cases of this anyway.

JimmySeal Wrote:The notion that honorific suffixes only exist to be attached to Japanese names is a load of horsecrap. It's just not true. If a lot of people have convinced themselves that honorary suffixes just don't fit with foreign names, then that is cultural, not linguistic.

Indeed - Mr. is an honorific, too. And Mr. Ishiyama and Mr. Suzuki sounds perfectly fine to me. Their first names are John and David, respectively, being American and Canadian. So obviously -san works after a non-Japanese name as well. 林さん could be your Chinese colleague.