dtcamero Wrote:Virtually identical. Is your paper dic's furigana worth the 5minute lookup? This is much more efficient.

You're ignoring the fact that はかり has two definitions in 大辞林, the second (秤) is what you quoted. But the first (計り・量り) is a less common word, and the definition is 3-4 times as long. I'm not sure how exactly a beginner is supposed to have chosen the right one... and so I included that in my calculation of how much harder it is. But perhaps you're right, perhaps はかり is not a good example. How about きちょうめん?

チャレンジ：
きちょうめん 【形容動詞】 いいかげんなところがなくて、きちんとしているようす。〔例〕きちょうめんにノートをつける。

大辞林：
きちょうめん —ちやう— 40【▼几帳面】
一（形動）文ナリ 
きちんとしているさま。すみずみまで規則正しくするさま。「━な性格」
二（名）
柱などの角に施した面の一。方形の角を落として鋭角に削り，その両側に刻みを入れたもの。もと几帳の柱に用いられたことからいう。

I never denied that having 大辞林 was not a great thing to have (more convenient, etc. whatever qualifiers you like). I just said its definitions are harder to follow for beginners.

turvy Wrote:Ideally, we could settle this by comparing more a couple more words besides 'scales'.

Sure, we had はかり, you did ガールスカウト, and now I did きちょうめん.

Care to suggest another, or is that good enough?

CJ

turvy Wrote:That's what I thought, sigh. Could you recommend a kid's one?.

Elementary students text books are a type "monolingual Japanese learner's dictionary." The main distinction that they have is the inclusion of Furigana beside Kanji included in definitions, to aid in reading. Also, the definitions are simpler, just like any other children dictionaries.

There differences between the various types of dictionaries. Just like another learner dictionaries the words will be less than a standard dictionary, but more than a pocket dictionary.

I would recommend "三省堂ー例解小学　国語辞典" Sanseido Reikai Shogaku Kokugo Jiten."

Your local bookstore should have a wide variety. Good luck.

[Katsuo]

Omoishinji Wrote:I would recommend "三省堂ー例解小学　国語辞典" Sanseido Reikai Shogaku Kokugo Jiten."

That one's also available as an app. (I haven't tried it.)

cjon256 Wrote:I never denied that having 大辞林 was not a great thing to have (more convenient, etc. whatever qualifiers you like). I just said its definitions are harder to follow for beginners.

i dunno the daijirin is longer but it's actual defs are shorter and more easily understood from my perspective but perhaps its just me.

katsuo's app actually looks like the thing that both of us are looking for... you should try using that and report back on how it works...

You have to take into account that if you're using a computer dictionary, then you can easily search words that appear within the definition. You can, for example, read a monolingual definition and search words you don't know on a bilingual dictionary. If you do that, 大辞林 get's a lot easier to understand. Besides, you can use 大辞林 with an EPWing reader or online with Rikaichan, or better yet, with Rikaisama.

三省堂ー例解小学 国語辞典 it's really cool, I bumped into this definition:

はらつづみ：腹をふくらませて、手で太鼓のようにたたくとこと。

I found this one online too:

腹を鼓がわりにして打ち鳴らすこと。

**

Kid's feels easier to me, I think I will go with the kid's one for the moment.

in general, if you're still at the stage that you really need a dictionary to read, you're probably better sticking with a bilingual dictionary. Any decent electronic dictionary will include 和英、 和和、英和、 英英 dictionaries though, so just get one of those. That way you have all the dictionaries you need in the one convenient place.

I don't know if I pointed this out already, but I want the dictionary because it will be fun to browse and look at and not really because it's gonna rescue me in all my vocab looking up needs, for that I will keep using Midori.

Oh, an electronic one, I will get one of those too eventually.

seriously just get a decent electronic dictionary. You can switch between the different included dictionaries at the press of a button, there are different input methods, roomaji, handwritten input, kanji dictionaries and so on. Your paper dictionaries will just collect dust.

Today, buying an electronic dictionary no longer makes sense. You can buy a portable media player or smartphone and load it with dictionaries, Anki, internet, RSS, Japanese media, and so much more.

Why would anyone prefer an electronic dictionary?

you may be right. It depends how convenient and how high quality the dictionaries available for smart phones are though (i don't know). Some possible advantages of electronic dictionaries:
- no internet (or other distracting functions)
- switch dictionaries with one click
- slightly bigger screen
- less finicky input
- audio (not that I ever use it)
- battery life is better because you're not using it to play media, make phone calls etc.

nadiatims Wrote:you may be right. It depends how convenient and how high quality the dictionaries available for smart phones are though (i don't know). Some possible advantages of electronic dictionaries:
- no internet (or other distracting functions)
- switch dictionaries with one click
- slightly bigger screen
- less finicky input
- audio (not that I ever use it)
- battery life is better because you're not using it to play media, make phone calls etc.

As long as you have no qualms about stealing from the internet, you can get many electronic dictionaries in epwing format. These can be read by apps on iphone or android. Having used both for long periods of time, I would say that there is really no reason one would want to use an electronic dictionary over a smart phone.

The only item in your list that holds true is the battery life :-\ (Well, and I guess the "no internet", but I think that having internet is an advantange.)

turvy Wrote:三省堂ー例解小学 国語辞典 it's really cool, I bumped into this definition:

はらつづみ：腹をふくらませて、手で太鼓のようにたたくとこと。

I found this one online too:

腹を鼓がわりにして打ち鳴らすこと。

**

Kid's feels easier to me, I think I will go with the kid's one for the moment.

My mindset is being a kid in an adult body when studying Japanese.

nadiatims Wrote:seriously just get a decent electronic dictionary. You can switch between the different included dictionaries at the press of a button, there are different input methods, roomaji, handwritten input, kanji dictionaries and so on. Your paper dictionaries will just collect dust.

There is a feature that many seem to overlook with current electronic dictionaries. That is the Japanese keyword search (日本語キーワード検索).

partner55083777 Wrote:As long as you have no qualms about stealing from the internet, you can get many electronic dictionaries in epwing format. These can be read by apps on iphone or android.

Is it possible to do this without jailbreaking (last I checked, I remember the only decent epwing app required a jailbreak)? If so, please share the name of the app!

vileru Wrote:

partner55083777 Wrote:As long as you have no qualms about stealing from the internet, you can get many electronic dictionaries in epwing format. These can be read by apps on iphone or android.

Is it possible to do this without jailbreaking (last I checked, I remember the only decent epwing app required a jailbreak)? If so, please share the name of the app!

EBPocket Pro. I used it for a couple of years on an iPhone 3GS without ever jailbreaking.

Elenkis Wrote:

vileru Wrote:

partner55083777 Wrote:As long as you have no qualms about stealing from the internet, you can get many electronic dictionaries in epwing format. These can be read by apps on iphone or android.

Is it possible to do this without jailbreaking (last I checked, I remember the only decent epwing app required a jailbreak)? If so, please share the name of the app!

EBPocket Pro. I used it for a couple of years on an iPhone 3GS without ever jailbreaking.

Ah, I remember seeing it a while back, but disregarded it because you have to upload the dicts via FTP. Is it not much of a hassle? What about the interface?

The screens on electronic dictionary devices are pretty low-rez for the most part... compare that to the retina display on an iphone. your characters look much nicer

Adding another recommendation for kid's dictionaries, I'm using the 例解学習国語辞典, and really enjoy looking up stuff in it. From having a look at the screenshots, the content seems to be quite similar to the other ones mentioned, but I like the typeface of the entries a little better in this one. Also, it seems to be a little cheaper than the チャレンジ.

Here are two links:
http://family.shogakukan.co.jp/kids/jisho/reikai/
http://books.rakuten.co.jp/rb/%E4%BE%8B%...m/6777355/

vileru Wrote:

Elenkis Wrote:

vileru Wrote:Is it possible to do this without jailbreaking (last I checked, I remember the only decent epwing app required a jailbreak)? If so, please share the name of the app!

EBPocket Pro. I used it for a couple of years on an iPhone 3GS without ever jailbreaking.

Ah, I remember seeing it a while back, but disregarded it because you have to upload the dicts via FTP. Is it not much of a hassle? What about the interface?

I don't remember having any trouble with with it, and it's not like you'll be uploading dictionaries frequently. I think I only ever did it once.

I use it with Android now, which lets you just drag and drop the dictionaries over USB.