Quick question... I've done RTK and have moved on to readings/vocab, with core6k and such. But it's proving to be pretty overwhelming, so I was wondering if there are any patterns that can serve as tips to the reading for a given character. I noticed, for example, that 新 and 親 both have an onyomi reading of しん and share the same primitive. So do some radicals usually carry a common reading over to a character, or is that just a coincidence and readings are 100 percent random?
2012-05-05, 4:33 pm
Its not a coincidence, it was intentional in Chinese. Chinese has a good number of characters have an radical/primitive that gives away the reading. In Japanese it happens sometimes but not nearly as much thanks to the characters being imported over time, making native Japanese kanji, simplifications, taking a Japanese stripped down phoneme version of the sound.
So in Japanese they are more random. Just not 100%.
I think Heisig goes over this in his second book with something like pure groups. Someone with more knowledge of Heisig??
So in Japanese they are more random. Just not 100%.
I think Heisig goes over this in his second book with something like pure groups. Someone with more knowledge of Heisig??
2012-05-05, 4:34 pm
There are phonetic components, but because of changes over time and in the importation from Chinese to Japanese, phonetic components are not reliable. I think they are worth noticing, as they make a good reminder/mnemonic, but the characters (and in irregular cases, each of the words) still have to be learned. There have been discussions before.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=755
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=755
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2012-05-05, 4:59 pm
Oh well, I guess there are no shortcuts! Thank you both for the comments.
2012-05-06, 1:09 am
There are many patterns but a great deal of seeming randomness as well. Heisig's second volume is geared towards finding the patterns and making use of them. For example, if you see a kanji with 且 on the right side, e.g. 組, 粗, 租, 祖, 阻, then the ON-reading is almost certainly ソ.
There are groups where some characters have a certain reading but others do not. Perhaps the most useful is 召, 昭, 沼, 照, 詔, 招, 紹, which all have ON-reading ショウ, with one exception 超 which is read チョウ.
Most groups are smaller than the ones I quoted and may have more exceptions. Many kanji fall into no groups at all, and some have multiple ON-readings. So while this sorting can be useful it doesn't help in many, perhaps the majority, of cases.
There are groups where some characters have a certain reading but others do not. Perhaps the most useful is 召, 昭, 沼, 照, 詔, 招, 紹, which all have ON-reading ショウ, with one exception 超 which is read チョウ.
Most groups are smaller than the ones I quoted and may have more exceptions. Many kanji fall into no groups at all, and some have multiple ON-readings. So while this sorting can be useful it doesn't help in many, perhaps the majority, of cases.
2012-05-06, 10:11 am
RTK2 is based on this approach, and I think that part (about the first half of the book) is worth looking at. It was certainly helpful for me.
The real benefit doesn't come while you're still mostly dealing with general use kanji, but when you start reading novels or perhaps even pre-1945 works. Less-common characters almost always use the 'standard' reading of the signal primitive... perhaps because Japanese people couldn't remember unusual readings either? So you often come across characters and can guess the reading right away, so the meanings are easy to look up.
To get an idea of how prevalent this is, just look up a kanji by reading in an extensive dictionary. Really unusual and complex characters with predictable readings.
The real benefit doesn't come while you're still mostly dealing with general use kanji, but when you start reading novels or perhaps even pre-1945 works. Less-common characters almost always use the 'standard' reading of the signal primitive... perhaps because Japanese people couldn't remember unusual readings either? So you often come across characters and can guess the reading right away, so the meanings are easy to look up.
To get an idea of how prevalent this is, just look up a kanji by reading in an extensive dictionary. Really unusual and complex characters with predictable readings.
2012-05-06, 2:34 pm
Showing patterns is indeed what Heisig does in most chapters of RTK2. I am working on it after finishing RTK1 a while ago (I am still reviewing it daily though) and I find the approach extremely useful although quite boring.
Using the index I am making flashcards for each chapter that group together all the kanji with a certain on-yomi. There are not really that many within each chapter, so it is quite easy. I actually think there still is a lot of room for finding other patterns, but I am rather lazy and I only have a couple of vague ideas.
Besides, the kanji compounds are very well chosen, in my opinion. What I mean is that while they indeed are not always very useful words, the sequence in which they appear is very cleverly planned, so that you see quite a bit more of structure in the book than you would think there is from just thumbing through the pages of the first few chapters. The kanji chosen for the compounds repeat rather often, so that every time you start a new chapter you have met a few already. Moreover there is an alternation of difficult and easy chapters, which gives a good rhythm.
To sum up, it is more boring than RTK1 (which was far from boring, as I think most people here would agree), but very well thought and quite effective, I think.
But I am doing chapter 5 out of 11 now, so it is too early to judge.
Using the index I am making flashcards for each chapter that group together all the kanji with a certain on-yomi. There are not really that many within each chapter, so it is quite easy. I actually think there still is a lot of room for finding other patterns, but I am rather lazy and I only have a couple of vague ideas.
Besides, the kanji compounds are very well chosen, in my opinion. What I mean is that while they indeed are not always very useful words, the sequence in which they appear is very cleverly planned, so that you see quite a bit more of structure in the book than you would think there is from just thumbing through the pages of the first few chapters. The kanji chosen for the compounds repeat rather often, so that every time you start a new chapter you have met a few already. Moreover there is an alternation of difficult and easy chapters, which gives a good rhythm.
To sum up, it is more boring than RTK1 (which was far from boring, as I think most people here would agree), but very well thought and quite effective, I think.
But I am doing chapter 5 out of 11 now, so it is too early to judge.
Edited: 2012-05-06, 2:35 pm
2012-05-06, 7:29 pm
I never read RTK 2 or 3 but you certainly do pick up on the grouping patters after a few years or so of reading Japanese.
2012-05-06, 7:50 pm
Even when the primary reading doesn't match the usual pronunciation of a reading part, often a secondary reading will. That was more useful when looking up by reading was a lot easier than the alternatives. Now with stylus input, it's not as big a deal, IMO.