I really cannot see any difference between these two, can somebody please look explain. Maybe I need my eyes tested...

Walking legs - 3 strokes - 夊
Taskmaster - 4 strokes - 攵

Blow the text up big to see the difference or use a magnifying glass with your copy of RTK1

They do look similar but I have no idea if their etymology is actually realated.

You can think of taskmaster as ケ with an extra stroke and walking legs as ク with an extra stroke.

Try to think of the elongated stroke as a cane that the taskmaster uses to swat sleeping students.

As synewave pointed out the strokes count is the main difference. Though if you're learning the kanji without the RTK1-book it might be a good idea to have a look at this page, and especially at the sample-PDF: http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publ...anji_1.htm

The best thing is to learn those kanji in combination of this side AND the book, otherwise you'll miss out on the stroke order and the introduction of new primitives.

My apologies for straying from the topic, but I'd just like to say that the subject line of this thread gave me a really amusing mental image of the taskmaster battling it out with a disembodied pair of legs for the right (pun intended) to appear in kanji.

Hmm, OK it seems I have happily been using 'taskmaster' as the radical instead of 'walking legs' for dozens of kanji (each, status, abbreviation, etc) without ever noticing...

By the way I think Heisig's use of taskmaster is a bit 'sexual' - is that just my imagination or is he really suggesting the taskmaster is a kind of demon lover?

Heisig's "taskmaster" is very close to the actual meaning of the radical.
You should see the image they use in kanji pict-o-graphix.

Its kinda off topic, but is there any good alternative to that taskmaster primitive, or can you tell me how to imagine stuff like "awe"? Its always hardest with the newest kanji, but with this lesson 15 I feel like Im not going to come to good terms any time soon... I HATE THAT PRIMITIVE T_T

The same difference between katakana ク and　ケ...
Though I have issues coming up with mnemonics using them.

You could replace "taskmaster" with an actual person. I used "Hitler".

There are a few stories using "dominatrix" too...

I use the image of a "coach" instead of "taskmaster." Most of the stories work as well or better with this substitution. Also, I picture a coach throwing one hand up in the air and pointing straight out with the other, kinda like a ref--that's the first two strokes of the primitive.

[Katsuo]

lanval Wrote:is there any good alternative to that taskmaster primitive

Heisig wrote "conjure up the memory of some taskmaster (or taskmistress) whom you will 'never forget'".

So think of someone (real or imagined) who personifies this word for you. For example a strict schoolteacher from your past. Or one of the suggestions in the posts above. Personally, I use a circus ringmaster and have the first stroke as his whip.

According to
http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/suito/syll...icals.html
it means "strike, attack, compel", but I don't know how authoritative it is.

My teacher seemed to think it meant "teach", so in most of my stories I use "schoolmaster".

I find 敬 quite easy: think of the flowery phrases of 敬語 that Japanese requires you to use when addressing your school teacher. Respect is built into the language!

攴 was the old form of 攵. Pictures a hand holding a whip to strike with. [ right side of this] for a semi old form (as you can see 攴 it looks closer to that form)


夂 was a pictograph of a footprint
~semi old form
old form

I'm curious - because my problem with these two kanji is mainly in identifying them when reading (as opposed to substituting one for the other, or messing up the strokes), will this present a problem later on, or will the context sort it out?

zer0range Wrote:I'm curious - because my problem with these two kanji is mainly in identifying them when reading (as opposed to substituting one for the other, or messing up the strokes), will this present a problem later on, or will the context sort it out?

Maybe context will sort it out for you ... over time. But it would be very useful to be able to visually distinguish the two. They are not identical. I don't see this as a permanent roadblock, but more like a traffic jam that may slow you down.

I prefer not to change primitives. I figured, that way I can take advantage of other people's stories, some are really clever. You change a radical and you're on your own. Making up my own doesn't make them memorable.

J

Wally Wrote:Maybe context will sort it out for you ... over time. But it would be very useful to be able to visually distinguish the two. They are not identical. I don't see this as a permanent roadblock, but more like a traffic jam that may slow you down.

I feel the same way. Having learned close to a thousand Kanji and only having superficial trouble distinguishing between two of them in isolation.. well, I'll take that.

Thanks.

zer0range Wrote:

Wally Wrote:Maybe context will sort it out for you ... over time. But it would be very useful to be able to visually distinguish the two. They are not identical. I don't see this as a permanent roadblock, but more like a traffic jam that may slow you down.

I feel the same way. Having learned close to a thousand Kanji and only having superficial trouble distinguishing between two of them in isolation.. well, I'll take that.

Thanks.

教
数
数
整
改
牧
救
救
敗
etc

冬
麦
夏
客
終
落
落
各
後
etc

Task master is pretty much always on the right, and the latter is somewhere else. And they aren't even similar anyway, i have much more trouble sorting out katakana so vs n on the default font settings

zer0range Wrote:I feel the same way. Having learned close to a thousand Kanji and only having superficial trouble distinguishing between two of them in isolation.. well, I'll take that.

Of course neither 'taskmaster' nor 'walking legs' are actually kanji on their own (well, not in RTK1, at least) -- so when you're reading you don't need to peer that closely to recognise a kanji anyway.

pm215 Wrote:

zer0range Wrote:I feel the same way. Having learned close to a thousand Kanji and only having superficial trouble distinguishing between two of them in isolation.. well, I'll take that.

Of course neither 'taskmaster' nor 'walking legs' are actually kanji on their own (well, not in RTK1, at least) -- so when you're reading you don't need to peer that closely to recognise a kanji anyway.

And 'walking legs' *always* has a smooth 'knee joint' at the upper-right, because that's a single stroke, whereas the TM has a 'dislocated shoulder' (if you will) caused by the third stroke beginning somewhat to the left of the end of the second stroke, not *at* the end. This, my native friends inform me, is the visual key for them.

Also, 'walking legs' are often 'half-height', the TM is 'full-height' with only a tiny number of exceptions (1?). But that separation between the end of the second stroke and the beginning of the third make it easy for me to distinguish between the two.

liosama Wrote:Task master is pretty much always on the right, and the latter is somewhere else. And they aren't even similar anyway, i have much more trouble sorting out katakana so vs n on the default font settings

Good point. Taskmaster is a primitive that appears side-by-side with something else (as liosama noted, typically on the right) while walking legs is on top of 冬 or at the bottom of 麦 or both (in the middle) 客 of other primitives.

That positioning difference may help cue you which to use and also help you notice the difference when reading.

Good stuff guys, thank you very much!