Hi all

As seen in the title, I can't stop talking Japanese gibberish....What i mean is that every time i try speaking Japanese, it is basically rubbish!

My mind goes blank, vocabulary level becomes that of a baby, grammar is non-existent and confidence is nowhere to be found.

It has been a few weeks since i started a small conversation class with a native Japanese, but things are not improving....

How did you guys overcome this problems???!!! I know practice is key, but practicing wrongly will not help either.

And how do i gain confidence in speaking? I feel that this is one of the major problems that i am facing.....

Just so you know I am not ranting about my problems, i just want to know what you guys do to overcome this issues!!

Please share!

Thanks in advance!

This happens to everyone, your spoken output (active) will always be less than your listening / reading (passive) input. There's no way around but to keep practising.

Copy and use phrases used by your friends until they come naturally as if you thought of them. I haven't really tried the shadowing method properly but some people claim that works well.

Don't be afraid to make mistakes, don't worry about forgetting the odd word. Conversation is not an exam, even natives screw up.

It's all about self confidence. I was exactly the same as you, I'd start speaking to people and I'd forget everything. Just keep going, don't let it get you down. Speak as much and as often as possible, even if it's just little things.

I personally think that more and more input leads to better practice (!!) of output, so if you keep up the practicing while also improving your comprehension abilities you're eventually going to get better. That's my thinking anyway.

Anxiety is a very unnecessary but painful barrier that shouldn't have to be there. If you can practice without the presence of other people a little then maybe you could become more comfortable doing it in class.

Maybe shadowing could help you become used to speaking, there should be no nervousness when shadowing unless you're uncomfortable with other people hearing you do it. Otherwise maybe writing could help you get used to expressing yourself, you get to take your time and you can repeat what you're writing to yourself. Check out http://www.lang-8.com in that case.

Watch Japanese TV dramas with Japanese subtitles.

Instead of making up your own sentences (and sounding little a gaijin), just
copy and imitate sentences you hear spoken by native Japanese.

And also use lang-8.com for written Japanese.

stress is a big barrier to acquisition when practicing... and if you never/almost never practice, then go into this situation for 'Japanese Conversation Practice' with a complete stranger, there will be huge stress I imagine.

you must make friends with people who speak japanese fluently... lang8 writing practice is not enough, but is a good start. Use a language exchange/dating website if you're desperate, but you need to have frequent, easy, low-stress access to lots of japanese conversation if you're ever going to be able to speak.

i would also recommend getting yourself to at least an n3 level before worrying too much about this.

Ok..i actually feel a little embarrass saying this but I actually passed my JLPT N3 last year. (-。-)

I have been doing a lot of input, and it will say that my listening and reading as improved. (Hopefully)

I guess i just have to speak up more!!!!

Quote:I personally think that more and more input leads to better practice (!!) of output, so if you keep up the practicing while also improving your comprehension abilities you're eventually going to get better. That's my thinking anyway.

Quote:Watch Japanese TV dramas with Japanese subtitles.

Instead of making up your own sentences (and sounding little a gaijin), just
copy and imitate sentences you hear spoken by native Japanese.

These. Input is a billion times more important than output. Learning how to speak a language is not a creative endeavour. What you need to do is copy natives. That's how you learned English, and that's how to learn Japanese.

I remember being at your level. you just need input. don't output making up your own Japanese....

chamcham Wrote:And also use lang-8.com for written Japanese.

Yes indeed... this is how you can get practice for forming sentences, and it's not like you're jumping into something that will make you nervous since you're going at your own pace. Sooner or later, you'll be able to form sentences in your mind even quicker. A little suggestion to cherie (if you use lang-8) when writing entries - don't type the sentences as you're thinking of them. Think of the sentence in your mind, and then type it out. Even better, say it, and then type it.

Of course, unless you're writing an entry in a colloquial way on purpose, writing lang-8 entries won't really help you get that colloquial thing down for conversation. But it will help you to put your thoughts into words easier, I think. lang-8 is a huge reason why I don't sound quite like a complete idiot when I speak in Japanese

fakewookie Wrote:

Quote:I personally think that more and more input leads to better practice (!!) of output, so if you keep up the practicing while also improving your comprehension abilities you're eventually going to get better. That's my thinking anyway.

Quote:Watch Japanese TV dramas with Japanese subtitles.

Instead of making up your own sentences (and sounding little a gaijin), just
copy and imitate sentences you hear spoken by native Japanese.

These. Input is a billion times more important than output. Learning how to speak a language is not a creative endeavour. What you need to do is copy natives. That's how you learned English, and that's how to learn Japanese.

Mmhmm, very well said...

I'll write a little about my thoughts on input for Cherie,

Input gives you the ability to familiarize yourself with set phrases/sentence formats that accomplish a lot in conversation, many of which you may not be able to find in dictionaries like「[adjective]というか、なんというか」or 「なんて[adjective]な[noun]なんだろう」「なぜ〜かというと、〜からです」, and you can familiarize yourself with the meanings of many many useful phrases like 「顔を出す」、「気に障る」、「足を運ぶ」,「口が重い」, learn the nuances of 擬音語、擬態語、etc, etc, etc. You expand you vocabulary, basically, and you familiarize yourself with what speaking style is used in conversation, and how it's used in conversation.

The only way you'll truly learn the context of certain words and phrases and get accustomed to pronunciation is by listening to actual conversations, and a lot.

I think of passive listening as something to fall back on, something that supplies you with all kinds of information to engrave in your brain over time that will eventually become useful. Actually, it's much more than something to fall back on - an ipod full of podcasts, dramas, music and clips from movies and shows in Japanese is like a fountain of knowledge flowing into your brain to become your framework for what you know about Japanese grammar, keigo、onna-kotoba, otoko-kotoba, nuances you pick up only through listening, 相槌（あいづち）、 etc, etc, etc. Sometimes I use phrases that I don't even recall actively learning, and think, "How did that just come out of my mouth?"

From passive listening, you come to understand exactly what a feminine way of speaking is, exactly what a masculine way of speaking is, what 硬すぎる and いんぎん無礼 sound like, and what perfectly respectful and tasteful speaking sounds like - all very important things you get from listening. Passive listening has a much larger impact than many people may realize. For me, language learning is very much incomplete without it.

i think that if you have a partner who can tolerate you, just keep going with the japanese. more input can be helpful, but you really just need to work on output. if you have conversations you are obviously getting input from your conversational partner. often times you'll get implicit corrections too, like when you say something wrong and they repeat it to you with the correction.

something like -
"i went to store yesterday."
"oh, you went to the store yesterday?"
"yeah, i went to the store yesterday. and i bought cabbage..."

i also find that talking to people requires more focus than passively listening to a podcast or something. sometimes if you miss the subject of a conversation you can find it out in the context of the rest of the conversation, but when you talk to somebody you actually have to respond to it.

i'm in the same boat as you though. i still feel like crap when i forget to make a verb past tense.

Just to add to all the other good tips....
Think you need more of what I call 'killer' sentences to help with confidence.

Sentences that you have heard many many times(input) and recited to yourself (shadowing, etc), so that when that same type of situation comes up you can just blast it out without thinking.

Once you get enough of the so called killer sentences you can mix and match vocab with one of those as necessary.

Then just repeat the steps above over and over.

socrat Wrote:Sentences that you have heard many many times(input) and recited to yourself (shadowing, etc), so that when that same type of situation comes up you can just blast it out without thinking.

Once you get enough of the so called killer sentences you can mix and match vocab with one of those as necessary.

Then just repeat the steps above over and over.

Oooh, I like this idea.....

Got an interesting story to tell you guys. One of my co-workers introduced me to another worker (in a different department) and she is Japanese. I got a few chances to speak with her but for some reason my mind just went blank a few times (not sure why but it's probably because I don't get much chances to speak Japanese) but what I got criticized for was funny. I got criticized for talking in a slangish way (nothing offensive of course) but obviously my keigo is still horrible but it's getting better. One good thing I learned is that: I was speaking really naturally (wasn't textbook style). That's one good thing I learned from that thing. I did tell her my situation on learning Japanese and got some good tips on how to improve speaking.

1. Stay away from English to Japanese Textbooks as they may be one-sided at times (textbook-style speech).
2. If you want to get better at the language, learn within the language
3. Focus on learning to understand and read (speaking and writing will follow after but they are a separate battle that can't be mastered until you have good listening and reading skills).

I found the JLA podcast (http://www.voiceblog.jp/japaneselistening/) invaluable in improving my spoken Japanese. They just record a natural conversation between friends and then transcribe it (very accurately, fillers and all), along with an English translation. Really concentrating a lot on the fillers and linking words helped me loads, and it didn't take long before I could put them into practice. Even if you need to stop to think of a word, being able to stall the conversation naturally will be a big help!

Edit: Just realised they've changed the format of the site and not all of the scripts are there now. A lot of them appear to still be available though, so grab them while you can!

[s0apgun]

^ Thanks for the link! Possible you could e-mail me the scripts and I can upload them to my hosting to share with everyone here?

It would be really awesome if someone in the community had the old scripts for that site saved away somewhere.

Just wanna point out that I disagree with the 'you just need lots of input.'

No, you needs lots of input AND lots of output. Input will never lead to output.

You need to speak as much Japanese gibberish as possible! Because as you do it you are practicing recalling the information in your brain necessary for the conversation at hand. If input ever teaches you to do that, it will only teach you very very slowly.

Of course, just outputting Japanese would also be a mistake. You should be listening to and studying a lot of Japanese at the same time as you're trying to use it in conversations.

How did I learn to speak Japanese? Mostly by dating Japanese girls who didn't really speak English, so I talked in Japanese a lot with them. I learned to read, write, and listen to Japanese by reading, writing, and listening to Japanese. (Of course, I also talked to other people, but the most constant practice I've had has been with the two Japanese girls I dated for a long time. One could just speak a little English, and one not at all.)

Tzadeck Wrote:No, you needs lots of input AND lots of output. Input will never lead to output.

^This.

If I was to add anything to Tzadeck's post it would be that in order to improve your output you do need a sound grasp of Japanese grammar. It helps heaps if somebody can point out your mistakes (like missing wa, incorrect use of ga, mixing dake with bakari, etc.) but you also need to be able to self reflect on what you said and make a note of the mistake that you made, so later you get it right.

I don't really believe in the input/output dichotomy. It's just language. The better you know it the better you'll understand it and the better you'll be able to use it.

Do things that increase your familiarity with the language and you'll find yourself better able to use it. The output part of that is not the hard part, and requires rather little practice, just follow the patterns you're familiar with and mimic the sounds as you hear them. The long difficult part is getting familiar with a large vocabulary and endless idioms and so on. Once you truly know these things saying them is not difficult at all.

Of course 'output' like conversation is a form of input just like anything else, so it can provide the same benefit as more pure 'input' activities. It also provides it in a way that a lot of people find enjoyable and relevant. But it's also quite slow and can be limited depending on the what kind of conversation practice you're getting. There's a lot of people (JETs come to mind) who don't seem to advance despite ample opportunity for speaking practice. They can stay in Japan for years, do their best to communicate with japanese coworkers, students, friends etc. But unless they're doing something else on the side to expand their familiarity with and knowledge of the language, their abilities tend to expand at a snails pace. They get better at using what they know, but spend very little time getting to know more. And it doesn't help if they stay in metaphorical shallow water of language classes and textbooks. When placed in real language situations they lament their low ability and think they need more practice. When they have some spare time, they'll break out the same limited textbooks, do practice exercises, drills with a tutor and make negligible progress in acquiring that huge ocean of words and phrases they still need to know.

Think of output as two expanding fuzzy concentric circles. The outer circle is your knowledge in the language. The inner one is your ability to use it when the situation arises. Try to speak when you knowledge is low, and you'll immediately plateau and you'll find speaking slow and frustrating. You'll constantly be pushing up against that boundary of what you know, and have no confidence in the language you're using. Expand the outer circle enough, and the inner circle basically grows itself, as you understand more the language you'll be able to mimic the speech of those around you much more easily. It will also let you get more enjoyment out of the language as you you'll learn enough of it to enjoy native media.

@nadiatims

I don't know what happened, but all of a sudden you've become a homerun hitter in terms of posts. Anyway, it was eye-opening to read your post. I can think of several people I know who constantly speak in Japanese, but have plateaued because they keep using the same phrases and their Japanese friends have grown accustomed to using simple Japanese around them. Your advice is gold.

@nadiatims

The circle imagery is a very good example.
Having a 7-10k word deck that you go through on the regular basis, puts your outer circle out far. When it comes time to produce, maybe you can't recall a word, but AT LEAST you know the word is there and can look it up. Without pushing your bounds and expanding that outer circle of experience, you're inner circle can never hope to expand.

Hi guys

Sorry for the late reply, my laptop crashed!!!

But thanks goodness for Ankiweb i am able to continue with my SRS!! (I seriously love the guy who created Anki, it is just awesome!!)

Ok that aside, i just want to thank everyone for their valuable advice and encouragement!

And thanks for all those wonderful resources!!

Have a great week ahead!!

Cherie