rich_f Wrote:I'm considering using the Japanese Keywords as well, but I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to be duplicating my efforts on kanji-- I'm already doing KO to cover on/kun yomi.
.....
It's a tough choice, but you've done some great work, wrightak.

Thanks!

I'm afraid that I haven't been following the Kanji Odyssey thread too closely. It all depends on whether you're practising the writing or not. If you are then theoretically you don't need to worry about the Japanese keywords that correspond to the kanji that you already practise the writing for.

If you're still reviewing with English keywords then this project is designed to replace that exercise. It's all about practising the writing of the kanji in a structured way that integrates well with other Japanese studies.

I've started using the file wrightak kindly posted and I have a few questions:

* If the japanese keyword has a different meaning than the english one, do you plan to change all your stories for kanji that use it as a primitive? For example, 呂 is associated with the keyword ふろ as in bath, instead of the meaning "spine" that Heisig gave. This will mean for instance modifying the story for 宮.

* Right now I only test if given the japanese prompt I can write the associated kanji, not if I can write the whole word in kanji. I guess that is the way to do it, but I wonder if anyone else is trying each time to remember the whole word.

nyquil Wrote:* If the japanese keyword has a different meaning than the english one, do you plan to change all your stories for kanji that use it as a primitive? For example, 呂 is associated with the keyword ふろ as in bath, instead of the meaning "spine" that Heisig gave. This will mean for instance modifying the story for 宮.

I only change stories if I think that changing them are going to make things easier for me. I didn't change the spine story or any stories for kanji featuring that primitive. The kanji that you write when writing Japanese will often have meanings very different from the Heisig keywords so it's best to get used to your stories being different too.

Although 呂 has it's etymological roots as a pictograph of a spine, I couldn't find any Japanese words that even come close to meaning anything related to spine. 風呂 seemed like a much more sensible choice.

Quote:* Right now I only test if given the japanese prompt I can write the associated kanji, not if I can write the whole word in kanji. I guess that is the way to do it, but I wonder if anyone else is trying each time to remember the whole word.

This is personal preference, and if you start by just memorising the target kanji then you can later edit the card and try and remember the entire word. I'm remembering the entire word for the majority of my cards now. What I'd try to do from an early stage is remember the reading for the target kanji.

For example, for the kanji 擁, my prompt is ほうようする. Even if you only want to remember the target kanji, it's a good idea to try and also remember that the target kanji, 擁, corresponds to よう and not ほう. This matters more than remembering the writing for the non-target kanji since it helps you to guess readings for other words.

Thank you for the replies,

wrightak Wrote:I only change stories if I think that changing them are going to make things easier for me. I didn't change the spine story or any stories for kanji featuring that primitive. The kanji that you write when writing Japanese will often have meanings very different from the Heisig keywords so it's best to get used to your stories being different too.

So suppose you get the prompt for a kanji like 宮, and you're not sure of the kanji/writing so you need the english story, do you still remember the "spine" component in your story, even though it is now associated to ふろ? I don't know if I'm clear, I'm just wondering if you keep the english meanings in your head too.
My example may not be very good, and I guess as with the english keywords, for many kanjis the stories tend to disappear when you know them well, and in the end you are left with a direct association between japanese keyword and kanji, which is what you want. I'm just a little bit curious as to what people are doing.

Quote:Although 呂 has it's etymological roots as a pictograph of a spine, I couldn't find any Japanese words that even come close to meaning anything related to spine. 風呂 seemed like a much more sensible choice.

Please note that I'm not disputing the choice of keyword here, 風呂 is such an important word I find it a great choice.

Quote:This is personal preference, and if you start by just memorising the target kanji then you can later edit the card and try and remember the entire word. I'm remembering the entire word for the majority of my cards now. What I'd try to do from an early stage is remember the reading for the target kanji.

Yes I agree. I think I will remember the whole word when it's easy for me, and the target kanji plus reading otherwise, and I may come back to the whole words later.

nyquil Wrote:So suppose you get the prompt for a kanji like 宮, and you're not sure of the kanji/writing so you need the english story, do you still remember the "spine" component in your story, even though it is now associated to ふろ? I don't know if I'm clear, I'm just wondering if you keep the english meanings in your head too.
My example may not be very good, and I guess as with the english keywords, for many kanjis the stories tend to disappear when you know them well, and in the end you are left with a direct association between japanese keyword and kanji, which is what you want. I'm just a little bit curious as to what people are doing.

As they say in Japan, this is pretty much ケースバイケース. With 呂, I've learnt that it's a pictograph of a spine and I'm not likely to forget that. I didn't even bother with a story. So with 宮, I use the spine imagery. I can't think of any other examples where the Japanese keyword is significantly different in meaning from the English one AND that kanji is a component in other kanji. The case here with spine is therefore quite unique. If you can think of another case then let me know and I'll tell you what I do but with spine, that's the etymological meaning and it's a simple pictograph so I remember it and have no problem incorporating it into stories for other kanji.

An important point for me is that with cases like 'spine', it's not an English word to me. When I see the kanji 呂, I see two vertebrae in my mind but I don't think of the English word 'spine'. The reason I started this project was to remember the stories but get rid of English words and nuances that kept popping into my mind and got in the way when I tried to write Japanese.

Quote:Please note that I'm not disputing the choice of keyword here, 風呂 is such an important word I find it a great choice.

Of course, I didn't think that you were. I just found it surprising that Heisig chose the word spine and there isn't a single Japanese word that even comes close to that meaning.

nyquil Wrote:* If the japanese keyword has a different meaning than the english one, do you plan to change all your stories for kanji that use it as a primitive? For example, 呂 is associated with the keyword ふろ as in bath, instead of the meaning "spine" that Heisig gave. This will mean for instance modifying the story for 宮.

This compound made me think of getting out of the bathtub and feeling a slight breeze that sent goosebumps down my spine. It's a great image (I haven't missed it since).

nyquil Wrote:* Right now I only test if given the japanese prompt I can write the associated kanji, not if I can write the whole word in kanji. I guess that is the way to do it, but I wonder if anyone else is trying each time to remember the whole word.

My goal is to remember the compound but I only fail the card if I make a mistake on the target kanji. If I can't remember the other kanji in the compound, I give it a 2 (difficult). After giving it a 2 a couple times, it usually starts to sink in.

wrightak,
your work is priceless. I'm doing well with the anki deck you provided, so thank you very much!

I do find many occasions in which I prefer to change the cards you set up. Most of the time it's just because I want to associate to a kanji another word I'm more familiar with, and in some rare cases there are little typos (like example sentences giving away the kanji). But these are no problem.
One thing that puzzles me, though, is when the same compound is used in more than one card, focusing on a different kanji in each. I wonder how you know which kanji you are asked just from looking at the keyword.
Here are a couple of examples:
しぼう（脂肪） is used for both 脂 and 肪
まてんろう（摩天楼）is used for both 摩 and 楼

There are quite a few of these occurrences. Currently I'm underlining the part of the keyword that corresponds to the kanji in the answer side, but I'm curious to know how you or others solve the problem.

wrightak Wrote:So with 宮, I use the spine imagery. I can't think of any other examples where the Japanese keyword is significantly different in meaning from the English one AND that kanji is a component in other kanji. The case here with spine is therefore quite unique.

Well, that's enough for me. I agree that the pictorial value of 呂 as a spine is sufficient, and if this case doesn't arise often it won't be a problem.

Thank you wrightak and others for your comments on how you are using the file.

nac_est Wrote:I do find many occasions in which I prefer to change the cards you set up. Most of the time it's just because I want to associate to a kanji another word I'm more familiar with, and in some rare cases there are little typos (like example sentences giving away the kanji). But these are no problem.
One thing that puzzles me, though, is when the same compound is used in more than one card, focusing on a different kanji in each. I wonder how you know which kanji you are asked just from looking at the keyword.
Here are a couple of examples:
しぼう（脂肪） is used for both 脂 and 肪
まてんろう（摩天楼）is used for both 摩 and 楼

Thanks for the kind words. Please let me know about the typos and I'll update the file and re-upload.

You make a good point with the same word being used in numerous frames. It's probably not ideal and I should choose different words. I do remember feeling particularly lazy with 摩天楼 but I quite liked that compound.

In terms of solving the problem you can either create two different prompts: し肪 and 脂ぼう (each testing you on a different kanji). Or you can try and remember all of the kanji for the entire word. Or you can underline as you suggested. Or you can choose a different word! (which I may get round to at some point).

With 脂肪, both of the kanji are similar in meaning and that word is quite common so I decided to lump them together. It's easy to remember which comes first and which comes second because ぼう and ほう are common readings for kanji containing 方. The same thing goes for し and 旨.

However, there is a positive argument. Learning the same word for several frames reduces the overall vocabulary burden and allows you to concentrate on the writing. The bad point is the extra burden involved with remembering how each kanji contributes to the meaning of the compound. But to be honest, you should ideally be learning that for all of the compounds in the list anyway.

I checked this and I am really interested in using it (Thank you so much wrightak!!!).

I have so far completed more than half of the RtK1 using this site, and my problem is that in about a week, I will have to move probably to Anki, if I want to continue my reviews since for the next 3 months I won't be able to use the internet for studying.

I was thinking the possibility to just start from scratch in Anki using the japanese keywords, now. I mean if I want to do it at some point, I will eventually have to start again from scratch. I think that I may be able to do it now, but I don't think I would be willing to start again after I finally finish RtK.

I don't want to do it to learn vocabulary or on-yomi (I do believe that this is against the concept of the book) but I don't want to keep forever reviewing using the english keywords. English is not my native language, so I always review with a dictionary anyway, and many times I do find it hard to associate a kanji to the correct keyword even though I associate it with the correct meaning (I don't know if you understand what I mean...). And I learn a huge amount of vocabulary anyway. I could just learn it in japanese instead of english!

So my question is this:
Do you think it is a good idea? Do you think it would just confuse me? Do you think it is impossible?
I even thought that maybe I could add the english keyword for words that I find difficult, at least for the first reviews.

I would appreciate any help, and sorry for the rather long post...

mememari Wrote:I have so far completed more than half of the RtK1 using this site, and my problem is that in about a week, I will have to move probably to Anki, if I want to continue my reviews since for the next 3 months I won't be able to use the internet for studying.
I was thinking the possibility to just start from scratch in Anki using the japanese keywords, now. I mean if I want to do it at some point, I will eventually have to start again from scratch.

Just so you know, you can move to anki with your english words and with your SRS progress from this site (without having to start over from scratch).

If your native language was English, I would say finish the English keywords first. Mainly because there are many kanji in Wrightak's example sentences that are difficult but are easier to learn after knowing their meaning first.
But since your not a native English speaker...it is hard to say. Maybe you could make stories in your own language and then come back to Japanese. For me it would be hard to start with Japanese only because there is so much I don't understand in the example sentences and what not that I imagine it would get rather frustrating.

Also, the biggest thing you will miss by not using the internet/this site is the stories that are shared on this site.
By the way, I am amazed after reading your post that you are not a native English speaker. (which may be reason to stick to the english first...)

laner36 Wrote:By the way, I am amazed after reading your post that you are not a native English speaker. (which may be reason to stick to the english first...)

Indeed - awesome. In addition to what laner36 said, I think there are a few things that need to be taken into account.

Firstly, your current level of Japanese in general. If you're still a beginner then you'll struggle to get a firm grip on what the Japanese words mean and the example sentences might take time.

Secondly, if you're away from the internet, will you have all of the other resources that will come in handy when you don't know a Japanese keyword? Like dictionaries and so forth.

Thirdly, I think you need to figure out the difference between how much time it takes you to figure out the English keywords and how much time it takes you to figure out Japanese keywords. Maybe you could do the first 50 or so and see how long it takes in comparison.

Remember though that English keywords were only ever intended to be stepping stones but I've assembled Japanese keywords with the goal of making them reasonably permanent. So I'd only pick the English keywords if you think that they are working as stepping stones. If they feel more like hurdles then you may wish to change.

Personally, when I learn new kanji, I use stories but I don't bother with English keywords any more. So I can tell you that using English keywords is not necessary if you want to use the Heisig method. Or at least, what I consider to be at the heart of the Heisig method - imagination, mental imagery and efficient ordering. However, I've been studying Japanese for quite a while now.

A watered down version of this method can be used to distinguish between kanji with similar meanings when doing RTK1 drills. For example, I sometimes confused abdomen (腹) with stomach (胃). So now for abdomen I have:
Q) abdomen (はらがたつ の はら)
A) 腹

Out of interest, how come you don't you delete the word 'abdomen' from that card?

wrightak Wrote:Out of interest, how come you don't you delete the word 'abdomen' from that card?

I could have, but why bother?

leosmith Wrote:

wrightak Wrote:Out of interest, how come you don't you delete the word 'abdomen' from that card?

I could have, but why bother?

Of course, whatever works for you is great but for me, I find that getting rid of them really helped me for the reasons I detailed on the website I put together and linked to earlier on. I wasn't trying to criticise at all.

In this particular case though, 腹 doesn't mean abdomen. The word abdomen doesn't help you to recall the story either so I was just wondering if there was a reason for you deciding to keep it in the card.

Thanks for your anki file. Just discovered this thread yesterday and already working on your Japanese keywords. A brillant way to review the Heisig kanjis while learning new Japanese words. I like it. I'm trying to get a balance between working through your list and reading/learning Japanese texts (I'm currently adding sentences from the Read Real Japanese series).

What's throwing me off is the amount of words that I don't know. Wish that a dictionary and Revtk would be integrated into Anki (though I've found Wakan to be a good alternative with the by clipboard option)

One word that I couldn't figure the meaning out is: 副編集長. (There might have been a few more).

編集長 is the editor-in-chief, which makes 副編集長 his assistant or next in line. Words that are in edict are things like 副大統領, the vice president of a country, or 副社長, the executive vice president of a company. You get the drift.

watashimo Wrote:One word that I couldn't figure the meaning out is: 副編集長. (There might have been a few more).

My friend is a writer for a magazine and often talks about the editor in chief and the "vice editor in chief" so I knew the word already. I had a habit of including words that I knew already and maybe vice president (Cheney or something) would be a better option. I'll update the list.

The RevTK site is integrated into the file in that if you click on the frame number, you'll go to your story. I used Kenkyusha's dictionary for a lot of the words and I highly recommend it.

Please feel free to bring up other words that you've got issues with.

wrightak Wrote:

watashimo Wrote:One word that I couldn't figure the meaning out is: 副編集長. (There might have been a few more).

My friend is a writer for a magazine and often talks about the editor in chief and the "vice editor in chief" so I knew the word already. I had a habit of including words that I knew already...

I changed that to 福隊長 (vice-captain), because I hear it all the time when watching Bleach. I find that adjusting some of the words to compounds that I already know makes it a lot easier (of course). Still, the huge work done by wrightak is VERY useful.

hey, just a real quick question. i'm not sure if it's been answered already in this thread or not, so sorry if it has. but i just downloaded this as an anki deck and i'm using it. i'm just wondering where these example sentences came from and are we sure they're correct as far as grammar and usage is concerned?

thanks for all your hard work, wright!

edit: oh, one last thing. if you've got easy access to the info, could you tell me which cards are absent form the deck? the deck's got i think 1872 cards in it, but it's not the last two hundred that are missing but instead several random ones. i was just gonna try and keep an eye out as i went along and add 'em in, but i'm afraid i'll miss some and would rather just do it all at once if possible. i thought perhaps you might have that kinda info. accessible relatively easily. thanks again!

I made such a list some time ago. I can give you a file with just the numbers or another one with semicolon separated English keywords (importable into anki). I plan on coming up with Japanese keywords for those as soon as I finish with wrightak's.
Maybe it's easier to just post them directly in this thread. Here they come:

198;桂;Japanese、Judas-tree
218;沫;splash
233;膜;membrane
242;荻;reed
262;呈;display
270;銑;pig、iron
304;冠;crown
311;亭;pavilion
321;壮;robust
338;獄;prison
342;詔;imperial、edict
345;詠;recitation
355;弐;II、(two)
367;桟;scaffold
386;赴;proceed
395;婿;bridegroom
397;裁;tailor
410;幌;canopy
411;錦;brocade
440;嫡;legitimate、wife
444;匕;spoon
448;昆;descendants
452;謁;audience
455;旨;delicious
457;壱;I、(one)
472;茨;briar
476;賠;compensation
493;芳;perfumed
501;曽;formerly
511;賓;V.I.P.
521;蝶;butterfly
523;蚕;silkworm
552;達;accomplished
560;准;quasi-
578;曰;sayeth
584;姻;matrimony
593;麻;hemp
599;忌;mourning
603;串;shish、kebab
636;泌;ooze
644;抹;rub
650;招;beckon
654;拘;arrest
658;挑;challenge
676;戒;commandment
686;乃;from
693;吏;officer
698;桑;mulberry
699;隻;vessels
707;没;drown
721;淑;graceful
728;妥;gentle
748;胎;womb
758;棄;abandon
763;硫;sulfur
765;允;license
766;唆;tempt
769;拙;bungling
772;岐;branch、off
777;嵐;storm
783;頒;partition
786;翁;venerable、old、man
800;裳;skirt
801;掌;manipulate
804;婆;old、woman
805;披;expose
809;殉;martyrdom
810;殊;particularly
825;聖;holy
826;敢;daring
828;懐;pocket
837;還;send、back
839;扶;aid
840;渓;mountain、stream
847;迭;alternate
853;堅;strict
854;臨;look、to
856;巨;gigantic
857;拒;repel
869;架;erect
877;従;accompany
881;征;subjugate
885;徳;benevolence
888;懲;penal
891;衡;equilibrium
901;愁;distress
903;秩;regularity
905;称;appellation
908;穫;harvest
909;穂;ear、of、a、plant
910;稲;rice、plant
913;委;committee
917;穀;cereals
921;粘;sticky
925;粋;chic
926;糧;provisions
939;笠;bamboo、hat
940;笹;bamboo、grass
944;筒;cylinder
949;簿;register
953;但;however
958;悠;remote
967;伯;chief
970;佳;excellent
976;侍;waiter
981;偵;spy
982;僧;Buddhist、priest
985;償;reparation
987;催;sponsor
988;仁;humanity
989;侮;scorn
994;伐;fell
999;傑;greatness
1008;化;change
1010;貨;freight
1014;俊;sagacious
1015;傍;bystander
1017;畝;furrow
1018;囚;captured
1020;丙;third、class
1039;塚;hillock
1041;弊;abuse
1042;喚;yell
1045;施;alms
1046;旋;rotation
1051;易;easy
1052;賜;grant
1054;尼;nun
1062;堀;ditch
1064;据;set
1065;層;stratum
1070;尺;shaku
1072;沢;swamp
1088;祥;auspicious
1091;祉;welfare
1095;尉;military、officer
1097;款;goodwill
1100;宗;religion
1101;崇;adore
1104;擦;grate
1106;抽;pluck
1112;軸;axis
1113;甲;armor
1115;岬;headland
1120;捜;search
1125;斤;ax
1132;逝;departed
1135;漸;steadily
1141;詐;lie
1148;侵;encroach
1149;浸;immersed
1155;浄;clean
1157;唐;T'ang
1161;伊;Italy
1164;耐;-proof
1166;儒;Confucian
1176;槽;vat
1177;斗;Big、Dipper
1182;庸;comfortable
1185;錯;confused
1196;奔;bustle
1201;暁;daybreak
1211;謄;facsimilie
1234;弘;vast
1303;附;affixed
1413;範;pattern
1463;爵;baron
1483;慨;rue
1498;梓;catalpa
1574;俸;stipend
1681;薫;fragrant

wrightak Wrote:In this particular case though, 腹 doesn't mean abdomen. The word abdomen doesn't help you to recall the story either so I was just wondering if there was a reason for you deciding to keep it in the card.

The expression doesn't mean abdomen, but doesn't the character still mean abdomen? When you get mad, doesn't your stomach churn, or stand on end? Either way, since the keywords are merely mnemonics, and disappear as soon I get comfortable with them, it doesn't matter to me. I don't know what you mean by abdomen not helping me recall my story. My body doubles over at the abdomen. Are you talking about a story with 腹が立つ perhaps?

That was a fabricated example; I know 腹 really already. But there are some other keywords that I get mixed up by sometimes. For example ardent and fervent. My card for ardent is
Q: ardent(きょうれつ の れつ)
A: 烈
This tips me off that ardent is the one that has a 列 primitive in it somewhere. I'm very familiar with 列. I'm not so familiar with the writing of 強烈 though, so deleting the ardent isn't a good idea. In fact, even switching from an english word to a Japanese word that I already know can cause extra work. Generally speaking, switching out mnemonics is a bad idea. But that's just me. I'm sure you are finding the switch to be fruitful, so good luck.

LloydGA Wrote:i'm just wondering where these example sentences came from and are we sure they're correct as far as grammar and usage is concerned?
edit: oh, one last thing. if you've got easy access to the info, could you tell me which cards are absent form the deck?

If you take a look at the master spreadsheet, which is linked to on the website, you can see on the sentences sheet that some of the sentences have the source material written in one of the columns. I know that the spreadsheet has bloated to a huge size and is quite slow but if you download it, you can open it locally in excel or something.

I wrote the majority of the sentences but some of them were contributed by Thora as well. (Thanks Thora!) I was very careful to take all of my sentences from good quality sources that are written by Japanese people. These included JLPT text books, newspapers, novels and the Kenkyusha dictionary. Thora took quite a lot of her sentences from Kanji in Context.

With your second query, when I started the project, I tried to progress quickly by skipping the more obscure kanji where I couldn't find a suitable word. I realised though that Heisig's ordering is very important and beneficial and so from 1200 onwards, I missed out fewer kanji. I'd like to fill the gaps so if you have suggestions, let me know and I can add you as a collaborator on the spreadsheet. Quite a few of the missing kanji are used in Japanese names rather than words.

leosmith Wrote:The expression doesn't mean abdomen, but doesn't the character still mean abdomen? When you get mad, doesn't your stomach churn, or stand on end? Either way, since the keywords are merely mnemonics, and disappear as soon I get comfortable with them, it doesn't matter to me.

Sorry, from your earlier post, it sounded like you got mixed up between 胃 and 腹 so I thought that the word 'abdomen' wasn't helping you to recall the story. If it helps then I can understand why you keep it in your card.

I don't think that the character means abdomen though, I think it means stomach as you say. But Heisig already had that word so he had to choose another. If you know this already then apologies but 腹が立つ is an idiomatic phrase that doesn't really illustrate the meaning of the word or the kanji. If you want to say that you're hungry or full you say that your stomach is empty or full -> お腹がすいた（おなかがすいた） I'm hungry、お腹がいっぱい I'm full. Instead of すいた, you can also say へった and in more casual company, you can say はら instead of おなか. When I'm with male friends, I often hear はらがへった～ I'm starved. So はら and おなか are both readings for the kanji and neither of them mean 'abdomen' to me.

As a westerner, I'm still pretty confused about the difference between 胃 and お腹 but I am assured that they are entirely different parts of your body.

Giving yourself more input on the question side of your card understandably makes answering the card easier. If you have both 'ardent' and the tip off that the primitive 列 is included then it makes remembering 烈 easier than just having one prompt. However, in order to write in Japanese (not read), I need to be able to write the kanji when thinking of the reading alone. But having both as you do sounds like it could be a good method of bridging the gap and having a half way point.