Chadokoro_K Wrote:Anyone else interested?

Yep. One thing at a time though.

wrightak Wrote:

Chadokoro_K Wrote:Anyone else interested?

Yep. One thing at a time though.

Most definitely!

Good to know that you are interested.

I am interested!

Well, it's taken a long time and there's still a bit more work to do but here's what's been done so far:

http://wrightak.googlepages.com/afterrtk1

I've written up everything on the project and hopefully people will find it useful. I've noticed that a lot of people have problems that I think this method will help solve. Even if you don't agree with the method, hopefully you will be able to make use of the data that has been collected.

Any feedback would be very interesting.

I'm very interested in your work. It seems like you've done an amazing job! I have a practical question though:
I'm currently using RevTK for my kanji reps. How would you suggest I go about if I want to start using the Anki deck? Stop using this site altogether and start with Anki?
And then, start answering a few cards a day, following the order of the deck? Wouldn't the higher-number cards slip away from my mind if it takes me a long time to get there? Just asking in case you or someone else has faced this situation before.

I'm very fond of this site and I think it's really great (I've been using it since 2006) but I've found that sometimes I need to review offline. And I also need the versatility of Anki to tweak a few cards.

While I disagree with those that have English as their native language using this (if you've done RTK, move onto sentences), I'm happy it's out. As I've said, I have Japanese friends that may find this very useful. That the anki file has not only the hiragana but also a contextual sentence is a very useful aid. This, combined with the stroke order font, will make a great learning tool.

Are there any others out there that know native Japanese persons interested in trying this?

Taking a look at this, I find that it would be very useful.

I started yesterday and am about 50 kanji in. Do you think I should switch to the Japanese keywords now? I already have quite a solid background in Japanese(I'll probably still need to learn a lot of new words, but that won't be a problem)

I'm still really unsure what to do in order to learn the readings after RTK1, and this looks helpful.

However, this seems more geared to someone who has finished RTK1. I'm not too fond of wasting time(already done a lot of that in my past studies). How long would it take going through the Japanese keyword deck after completing RTK1?

Certainly looks good. I'm about a week off finishing RTK1, but I'll wait until most of the words have floated over to box 5, then give this a shot. Although I'm not lost regarding where to learn Japanese from; as well as doing RTK1 at the moment I'm going through the series of textbooks by The Japan Times - finished Genki a while back, now nearly done 中級の日本語.

I tried the AJATT method that's been lauded so much but I didn't personally find it right for me. I agree totally that words should be learnt in context, but I prefer doing it in a way that lets me learn grammar conventionally at the same time.

Some of the other advice there is sound though; going to start listening to the news online and other podcasts soon.

nac_est Wrote:I'm very interested in your work. It seems like you've done an amazing job! I have a practical question though:
I'm currently using RevTK for my kanji reps. How would you suggest I go about if I want to start using the Anki deck? Stop using this site altogether and start with Anki?
And then, start answering a few cards a day, following the order of the deck? Wouldn't the higher-number cards slip away from my mind if it takes me a long time to get there? Just asking in case you or someone else has faced this situation before.

Thanks.

I wrote a little bit about this on the fourth page of that website I put together. You basically have three options:

1. Stop reviewing with English keywords completely and start from Frame 1 and go through to Frame 2042.
2. Start from Frame 1 and delete English keyword cards as you go. So once you get to Frame 100, you'll have 100 Japanese flash cards and 1942 English ones.
3. Review both English and Japanese concurrently.

Option 3 seems like an unnecessary duplication of effort to me and I wouldn't recommend it.

Can you delete cards on this site? You couldn't when I was using it. If not, then you can't implement option 2 without transporting everything to another flash card program. There's a plugin to transport RevTK progress to Anki and if that works then this may be an option.

My preferred method is option 1 (although I was doing option 2 with supermemo for quite a while). It means that you can make progress much more quickly through the Japanese flashcards. Yes you will forget the later cards but if you've made a note of your story, it won't matter. Heisig himself didn't use an SRS, as far as I'm aware. The important thing is that you've made a story that works. If you're encountering the later kanji in other areas of your studies (like reading) then you're less likely to forget them.

This is just based on my experiences but of course feel free to go for whatever method you think is best for you.

playadom Wrote:I started yesterday and am about 50 kanji in. Do you think I should switch to the Japanese keywords now? I already have quite a solid background in Japanese(I'll probably still need to learn a lot of new words, but that won't be a problem)

I brought this up briefly on that website. It's under debate. If you look through this thread, I think you'll see quite a lot of evidence that other RTK graduates think that this project is best suited to those that have finished RTK. The fear is that if you try and use the Japanese keywords, and you fail, then you'll give up on RTK all together and won't bother returning to the English keywords, which are tried and tested.

I seem to be the only person who thinks that for some people with the right motivation and background, going straight to Japanese keywords could be the most efficient way. I can tell you that with all new kanji I learn, I don't bother with English keywords. I identify the primitive elements, create a story and associate it with Japanese language immediately. But then again, I've had the practice of RTK 1, so I'm in a very different position.

I'd say that if you've got a reasonably solid background in Japanese, give it a shot for a while and see how it goes. If it doesn't work then revert to the standard approach and make use of this project after you've finished.

Other people may disagree with me quite strongly though.

Thanks for the reply. I actually asked a silly question. I'm doing the sentences method, so I'm practicing kanji through that too. Therefore I'm gonna try with option 1.

Thank you for posting this, wrightak. I'm only 227 characters into RTK so far, but was wondering where to go next, and this makes sense to me. I've bookmarked your site for after I finish RTK1 and Remembering The Kana.

I'm going to give this a shot, thanks for putting it up wrightak.

I made a pretty big mistake after I finished RtK1. I was adding tons of vocab and sentences and slowly stopped reviewing RtK1. I figured that I was getting enough exposure to the Kanji that I wouldn't need to review keywords. BIG MISTAKE. My Kanji recognition and production abilities plummeted. Recently, I decided to start RtK1 over again. Of course, I do remember many of the stories so it has been a lot easier the second time around. But now I see this thread, so I might as well give it a shot.

When you added vocab and sentences, did you test yourself on the writing of the vocab? Or did you just do reading?

It's great to hear that you're going to give it a shot. Please let us know how it goes and what works/doesn't work for you.

wrightak Wrote:When you added vocab and sentences, did you test yourself on the writing of the vocab? Or did you just do reading?

It's great to hear that you're going to give it a shot. Please let us know how it goes and what works/doesn't work for you.

I only did the readings. This should be interesting.

suffah Wrote:I only did the readings. This should be interesting.

Yeah, in that case what happened to your kanji knowledge makes sense and I think you're in exactly the same situation as I was before I started with this. がんばってください！

Hey thanks a lot for sharing your work! I love the idea. It's like put all those kanji I spent so hard learning to good use.
So far I've gone through the first 30 or so. I was surprised at how much new vocabulary there has been (not just the keyword itself but also the example sentences). So what I am doing for now is adding the new vocabulary as recognition cards (in trinity). After going through recognition a few times I think it will help me with production.
For now I am going to study the English keywords too. I only get about 30 or so a day so it isn't that much more work. I plan on slowly deleting the English cards as you suggest--after I get farther along.

I got a bit stuck on number 25. 友昌. Is this just a last name? Also, what is the correct reading of 正信さん? the sentence is ともあきさんは正信さんの幼なじみです。 I think it means something like "Mr. Tomoaki and Mr.正信 have been friends since childhood." But Heisig's keyword "prosperous" isn't really in there--I guess because this kanji is only ever found in names. Is this right? Are there a lot of keywords that turn up in your deck as name-onlys?

Great to hear that you're giving it a shot. Doing some recognition cards first sounds like a good idea. One of the things I want to improve is to try and get hold of some simpler sentences for the first few kanji. The ones there right now are ok but they could introduce less new vocab and achieve the same result. I was a bit too enthusiastic when I started this project!

laner36 Wrote:I got a bit stuck on number 25. 友昌. Is this just a last name? Also, what is the correct reading of 正信さん? the sentence is ともあきさんは正信さんの幼なじみです。 I think it means something like "Mr. Tomoaki and Mr.正信 have been friends since childhood." But Heisig's keyword "prosperous" isn't really in there--I guess because this kanji is only ever found in names. Is this right? Are there a lot of keywords that turn up in your deck as name-onlys?

Thanks for reminding me about this one. You're right about the meaning of the sentence and 正信 is pronounced まさのぶ. He was my housemate a couple of years ago and I asked him to think of a word that used 昌 and after a lot of head scratching, that's what he gave me. It's an uncommon kanji and now that I've looked into it in more detail, it's probably one of the trickiest I've come across. Here's what chadokoro_k and others contributed on the master spreadsheet:

昌 友昌 ともあき 繁昌？隆昌？昌泰？ 昌一　〔名〕 しょういち・まさかず　〔名〕 繁昌 店がはんじょうする みせがはんじょうする Probably best to use a name. But the word 繁昌 does mean to be busy & prosper. However, the usual kanji for this is 繁盛.

Not very clear when pasting from a spreadsheet - sorry. Our options are limited and unappealing. I'd prefer not to use a name, and choosing a word where the usual kanji is different isn't that great either. The other candidates are all pretty uncommon... It's up to you but you will be happy to know that this is one of the hardest cases I've come across. Choosing words for kanji is usually a lot easier...

There are other names in the deck but very few. I'd estimate less than 10 and this is the only case where a person's name is used (I think). The others are more famous like 大阪.

If it's any consolation with this kanji, it's probably one of my easiest cards. I don't think I've ever failed it and the interval is over a year...

wrightak Wrote:One of the things I want to improve is to try and get hold of some simpler sentences for the first few kanji. The ones there right now are ok but they could introduce less new vocab and achieve the same result. I was a bit too enthusiastic when I started this project!

I wasn't meaning to imply that the extra vocabulary is a bad thing...
I forgot about checking the master sheet. But for this one I'm gonna keep as is because all this talk got it stuck in my head. Thanks for your response, and thanks again for all the keywords!

laner36/wrightak: I found these two on a word frequency list:

peace, tranquility 昌平　　しょうへい　
prosperity 隆昌　　りゅうしょう

Actually the frequency was 0 for both!

As it is a non Joyo kanji I would not care too much and just pick 隆昌 as it is very close to the Heisig keyword.

I've been doing this a bit for myself. I'm not using on-yomi for individual kanji, but a word I know with the kanji (with that kanji's parts underlined.) This still has hominym problems. For one, I had to use おもう and おもすぎ in order to differentiate between 思 and 重.

For 恋 I used こいキング as the keyword so I don't get it mixed up with 恋 which isn't on the list yet, but will be eventually.

Is anyone doing "reverse" or recognition cards in addition to production? I'm still chewing over converting to Japanese keywords, and I will do production and recognition. I'd just like to hear some comments from those that tried.

I assume there'd be no problem as both the Kanji and the Japanese word (in kanji) is displayed and you must pronounce it correctly.

*Edit* Ok, I'm going to try it out. Here's my process: Somehow, get the import Koohii data plug-in to work with Anki. Now, I'll suspend RTK frames that are same as the ones I add in JRTK so no redundant reviews, but I also won't lose Kanji that have no Japanese keywords made for it yet. In JRTK, I'll add a field called "notes" where I'll put any extra info (definitions from the sentence, the word, THE STORIES which hopefully can be in japanese, etc.). I also added a recognition set of cards.

Now, I'll try 30 a day but that's being ambitious.

I'm using RTK, and going in order as far as learning new words with the kanji, but I also find myself skipping around a buit in order to convert words I know, and can recognize the kanji for.

Word of advice: As for the ones "in order" I just did 量る and 埋める today. Don't do them on the same day. I keep seeing Hakaru... Hakaba, Bury! which is wrong.

I'm considering using the Japanese Keywords as well, but I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to be duplicating my efforts on kanji-- I'm already doing KO to cover on/kun yomi. Of course, the only problem with KO is that it's hard to get a fast pace going on that-- just doing 5 kanji a day is pretty time-consuming, because that means nailing down 15 or so sentences. (30 if you go both ways, as I do.) And on top of the kanji you're learning specifically, there's a lot of other vocab to learn at the same time.

If I was going to use the Japanese keywords, then I might possibly use them to just learn Heisig's pure/semi-pure/impure /etc. groups from RTK2, which might make KO go slightly faster as well. Hmm... The trick is really in the ordering. If I use the keywords to go in RTK2 order, that might help a lot when Heisig uses oddball words... but then by doing that, will it slow down my pace in KO? Because KO uses a vocabulary building order priority instead....

Then again, I might lose time I could spend on finishing up UBJG as well. Decisions, decisions! It's tough to figure out how to allot the limited amount of time per day I have to study.

It's a tough choice, but you've done some great work, wrightak.

Nukemarine Wrote:Is anyone doing "reverse" or recognition cards in addition to production?

Yep, I have both writing and reading cards in Anki. If you want to generate reading cards then it's very easy to do with the Anki deck. Most of the time being able to write the kanji means that you can read it but occasionally this isn't the case.

Quote:*Edit* Ok, I'm going to try it out. Here's my process: Somehow, get the import Koohii data plug-in to work with Anki. Now, I'll suspend RTK frames that are same as the ones I add in JRTK so no redundant reviews, but I also won't lose Kanji that have no Japanese keywords made for it yet. In JRTK, I'll add a field called "notes" where I'll put any extra info (definitions from the sentence, the word, THE STORIES which hopefully can be in japanese, etc.). I also added a recognition set of cards.

Great to hear. Hope that it goes well for you, let me know. I wouldn't worry too much about putting the stories in Japanese. I found that as long as they're just imagery and they don't have word play or English dialogue in them then it's not a problem for them to be written in English. Some people find that even English word play doesn't matter. If you've got your stories stored on RevTK then you can put a link on the cards that will display your story when you click on it. (That's what's been done in the deck I uploaded)