Hi Weber. I may have misunderstood your comment, but the spreadsheets are just a means for the group to create the list. I believe their idea was always that the user interface would be similar to what it is now, but with Japanese keywords (with clarifying phrase where required).

btw, thanks Wrightak and Raulir for your efforts to date. I think it's deceptive just how time consuming it is.

Weber Wrote:I think there is way too much extraneous information on the charts as they are now, it's very distracting....
Too much extraneous information such as lists of 音読み will become very distracting,

We can delete the on yomi column if people think that it doesn't add any value. I had the data so I thought that I might as well include it.

The point of having it in spreadsheet format is that you can take the data, manipulate it easily and export it to whatever other program you like. If you want to take it all and input it into Anki for example, you can find instructions here:

http://repose.cx/anki/wiki/Importing_material_into_Anki

I'm sure that Twinkle and other programs will work in a similar fashion so anyone can take the data in the spreadsheet and use it however they want. The same obviously goes for ファブリス and this site.

Synewave has been invited as an editor of the spreadsheet, if anyone else would like to join us then please send me your email address. Thank you Laura and Thora for your kind comments. If you'd like to view the data in spreadsheet format (rather than as a webpage), then let me know.

[ファブリス]

brose Wrote:I am not interested in trying to learn English equivalents of Japanese words while reviewing the kanji. This is especially a bad idea for the Heisig keywords.

I suppose you meant Japanese equivalents of the english keywords? I don't know why it would be such a bad idea. It's always useful to expand your repertoire. A word you don't use today you might use tomorrow who knows.

On the other hand I reckon it would be optimal especially for learners having completed RtK1 and not advanced in Japanese yet, to have common, practical words wherever possible. But to have a common list, and to remain consistent (all kunyomi, for example), there will be compromises.

I think this project is a great idea. I recently completed RTK I and switching over to Japanese keywords sounds like a great way for me to advance further. Although my Japanese skill is not that great, I'm happy to help out if I can.

Cheers wrightak. On my Mac with I couldn't do any editing. Safari isn't supported and Firefox hangs. Anyway, at work with IE6 it's all good.

EDIT: wrightak is keeping it real as far as the Brits are concerned. The 'Last Updated' datestamp is in the format DD/MM/YYYY.

I've started to change the numbers of kanji with no 訓読み to orange.

Also I added an extra sheet by mistake but I can't see how to remove it!

synewave Wrote:Cheers wrightak. On my Mac with I couldn't do any editing. Safari isn't supported and Firefox hangs. Anyway, at work with IE6 it's all good.

I didn't realise that google docs wasn't supported on many browsers. I use firefox at home and it works great. It should work on the Mac too if you have the right version. Check this article out:

http://documents.google.com/support/bin/...swer=37560

synewave Wrote:EDIT: wrightak is keeping it real as far as the Brits are concerned. The 'Last Updated' datestamp is in the format DD/MM/YYYY.

I hadn't even thought about it!

With the new sheet issue. Just click on the sheet you added and a small arrow should be next to it at the bottom. Click on that arrow and you'll get a list of options for what to do with the sheet. I've already deleted it.

Thanks for the additions you made!

ファブリス Wrote:

brose Wrote:I am not interested in trying to learn English equivalents of Japanese words while reviewing the kanji. This is especially a bad idea for the Heisig keywords.

I suppose you meant Japanese equivalents of the english keywords? I don't know why it would be such a bad idea. It's always useful to expand your repertoire. A word you don't use today you might use tomorrow who knows.

On the other hand I reckon it would be optimal especially for learners having completed RtK1 and not advanced in Japanese yet, to have common, practical words wherever possible. But to have a common list, and to remain consistent (all kunyomi, for example), there will be compromises.

What I meant is that I think it's fine to have both English and Japanese appear at the same time, because I want to use both to tell me unambiguously which kanji I am supposed to write. IMO, many of the Heisig keywords are only good for establishing a link to the kanji-- it's actually counter productive to try to link the English with a Japanese meaning. And generally speaking, it's often counter productive to try to learn vocabulary out of context by linking a single word to another single word. I prefer to pick up new vocabulary by reading and listening, the same way I learned 99% of the English words I know.

Btw, do we really need consistency in the Japanese? I think the most common Japanese word containing the kanji, regardless of wether it is in a 熟語 or just kun yomi, is best. If you don't know the Japanese word, it can't help you identify what kanji to write. Again, this is from the view that as you get better at Japanese, you will "know" the real meaning of the kanji, but forget the Heisig keywords. If there was a link which would bring up a sentence using the kanji, that would be useful for people who don't know the word.

synewave Wrote:EDIT: wrightak is keeping it real as far as the Brits are concerned. The 'Last Updated' datestamp is in the format DD/MM/YYYY.

　
The oh-so-sortable YYYY-MM-DD format has some advantages.

-- Daniel

brose Wrote:Btw, do we really need consistency in the Japanese? I think the most common Japanese word containing the kanji, regardless of wether it is in a 熟語 or just kun yomi, is best.

Certainly a valid point.

However one of the main advantages I see of using 音読み only for kanji that don't have a 訓読み is that it may well help us remember that they don't have a 訓読み。

Also as Fabrice has already suggested, 音読み can often give away part of the shape of characters.

I think it will be good for our Japanese as a whole to have a systematic way of hitting 訓読み

Anyway, assuming this is how we are proceeding, what do we want to do with kanji that have no 訓読み?

EDIT: ditto for kanji who apparently have a 訓読み but no entry for that given reading.

It seems that there are several objectives that you could aim to meet when choosing a Japanese keyword.

1. Choose the kun-yomi. This has the advantage of not giving away the shape of the character, providing a balance to anyone using RTK 2, and perhaps most importantly only involving one kanji.

2. Choose a common word that learners are likely to know. This has the advantage of not burdening the learner with extra work when all they want to do is review their imagery and the writing.

3. Choose a word whose meaning is close to that of the Heisig keyword. This would mean that the story that the learner has made for the kanji need not be forgotten or altered in order to fit the Japanese keyword.

Clearly it's not going to be possible to meet all of the above criteria for each kanji. As synewave pointed out, some kanji don't have kun yomi. Some of them have kun yomi which is either rare or whose meaning is very different from the Heisig keyword. Sometimes the reasons for Heisig's selection of some keywords is very mysterious, so prioritising no. 3 wouldn't be the best I think.

Basically it's up to ファブリス to choose whatever priorities he'd like to have for the site. I'm happy to oblige with whatever you choose.

I haven't been scrutinizingly following this discussion but I just thought I'd pipe up and give my opinion that it would be good to avoid using obscure words for the sake of clinging to kun-yomi.
In all my time learning Japanese, I've never encountered the word ふところ, but another highly common compound - 懐中 (as in 懐中電灯) - is entirely illustrative of the Heisig keyword and is a very useful word as well.

Why the huge concern that an on-yomi might give away a character's writing? If a person can easily write a character from its reading, isn't that a good thing, and a realistic sitiuation? Is "sea" a bad keyword for 海 because it relates to water?

Personally I agree with Jimmy, but it's up to Fabrice to give the word on whatever goes through to the site.

It would be great if we could get someone Japanese to help us since a Japanese person would be in a really good position to judge which words are common and which aren't.

I don't suppose I can persuade you to help us out with the list Jimmy?

Yes, I'd certainly be interested in helping out

Great! Fire across an email and I'll invite you as an editor on the spreadsheet.

[ファブリス]

Some of the concerns I have apply only for the list as would be used on the site, while advanced learners may have specific needs, and might want to import the list in their program of choice.

That's why I think we should clearly identify the target for the list, and create two separate lists : the one that would be used on the site will have different requirements, the other could be used by anyone and imported in the user's program of choice (which was the case until now if I'm correct, except that wrightak's list was not widely available).

It might be easier to do handle both into the same spreadsheet, with some duplicate columns, under two different headers. Then perhaps work on the "all purpose" list, and specify a different keyword for the "koohii" list, where requirements are different.

I'll try to explain a little better my reasoning for the "koohii" list :

wrightak Wrote:1. Choose the kun-yomi. This has the advantage of not giving away the shape of the character, providing a balance to anyone using RTK 2, and perhaps most importantly only involving one kanji.

In addition, the next area will offer some support to understand groups of kanji who share identical chinese readings, for example it's easy to see groups of kanji (even those only from user's vocab & sentences) split by ON reading. This makes it easy for the learner to identify by themselves what are the "sound" parts of the characters when present.

However, there is no systematic way for the kunyomi, and if we are going to learn and review some vocabulary, it will be more profitable to have this list handle the kun yomi where kunyomi is available.

wrightak Wrote:2. Choose a common word that learners are likely to know. This has the advantage of not burdening the learner with extra work when all they want to do is review their imagery and the writing.

So I understand this point of view, and think you should go for it for the non-"koohii" list (i.e. to be imported in Anki etc), as this will fit advanced learner's needs.

While on this site, it's always been my goal to try and make learning the kanji (and soon readings and vocab) easier, for people of all levels. So point 2 only applies to a subset of users of kanji.koohii who will review with this list. I'm sure I'm not the only here, given some accounts I have read on the forum, who had still a very basic vocabulary in Japanese AFTER completing RtK1. Point 2 will be moot for me, I will have to review and learn all those words anyway, my kanji review will be slower, but well worth the effort.

wrightak Wrote:3. Choose a word whose meaning is close to that of the Heisig keyword. This would mean that the story that the learner has made for the kanji need not be forgotten or altered in order to fit the Japanese keyword.

This would be preferable I think for both lists. For the "koohii" list it's not absolutely necessary but to make the transition as smooth as possible for learners it would be better. This doesn't look like a big issue though.

Sure thing. At the moment, the spreadsheet has three columns for three candidate Japanese keywords. I can add another column or convert one of them so that it represents what we think should go into the koohii list based on what you've said above. From what I understand, you want kun yomi to be chosen as a priority, which I think makes sense.

To confirm though, even for very uncommon words like ふところ, you'd prefer the kun yomi over an on yomi compound? And presumably for kanji with no kun yomi, the next best must be chosen?

[ファブリス]

wrightak Wrote:I can add another column or convert one of them so that it represents what we think should go into the koohii list based on what you've said above. From what I understand, you want kun yomi to be chosen as a priority, which I think makes sense.

Ok cool. I thought it would help because I'm not sure everyone here is necessarily planning to use this site's review with the list, and I think your original project was to make a list that can be imported in many programs anyway.

brose Wrote:Btw, do we really need consistency in the Japanese?

Maybe not. After looking some more at RtK2 I have doubts. I thought Heisig provided a Japanese reading for each character but that's not the case. Looks like the review mode he suggested and which I mentionned earlier in this thread, is for those flashcards where the kanji appears as a root for a verb, that is it has an inflection. (in which case the Japanese reading would be a good choice, I think we can agree on this?)

Also regarding the on yomi reservation I had, looks like I wasn't making sense. I guess it's a skill you want to have, to be able to tie sounds to "signal primitives". Then there are all the exceptions, so you can't predict all that much.

I have to think more about it, need to look at exactly how I could integrate this in the upcoming system.

Because...

brose Wrote:If there was a link which would bring up a sentence using the kanji, that would be useful for people who don't know the word.

That would definitely work if I can implement the list as a standard "vocab list". Any compound can appear in sentences and/or vocab lists. If it appears in ANY sentence whether from you or another user, the progam can pull these sentences. But the vocab list can contain any compounds, the readings don't matter.

It might not be a problem to have mixed readings after all.
Then all those keywords will function as vocab entries, and count towards the user's total count of active/passive vocabulary.

wrightak Wrote:To confirm though, even for very uncommon words like ふところ, you'd prefer the kun yomi over an on yomi compound? And presumably for kanji with no kun yomi, the next best must be chosen?

Well I'll have to think more about it, how exactly I can make it fit within the upcoming vocab/sentence review.

[ファブリス]

Here's why this isn't so evident for me : I have a "writing test" mode, which, when you have just one kanji and the rest as hiragana, can work pretty the same as the Japanese keyword review we're discussing :



However this is a general writing test, compounds with more than one kanji appear :



Furthermore, the kanji that is being temporarily replaced by kana is not always the same. For a true "writing test", you need to be tested on any part of the word. It could be all at the same time, but in cases like あげる you would need part of phrases to have sufficient context; the latter is not supported yet.

Slightly off topic...最新 could be 最深

If there is going to be a genaral writing test area that will have a variety of words, kunyomi, onyomi, singles, doubles, etc. while at the same time being a Japanese keyword review area, I'll champion making them distinct.

By this I mean, we have:

1. an English review area (as is just now)
2. a primarily kunyomi review area (rare/uncommon words not to be excluded)
3. general writing test area (where I presume we can add any word or compound we want)

EDIT: typo

wrightak, JimmySeal and anyone else editing the Google spreadsheet. I added a few more columns to the sheet along the lines that Fabrice suggested.

I am working through Kan Ken 5 kunyomi just now so that's the way I'm going to add to the sheet.

It sounds like there won't be a "one-word/one-kanji" option for the Japanese keywords like there is for English keywords. Am I understanding this right?
1) Not all kanji have 訓読み so that section will be incomplete.
2) There will be a "reading test" in which the multiple readings found in compounds can be tested.
I was hoping for what I thought wrightak et al. seemed to be in the process of creating at first-- a program, with cards and using the SRS system, linking a single Japanese word, using either the 訓読み (kunyomi) reading, or the 音読み(onyomi) reading to each of the Heisig kanji. e.g. I was using imashi(meru)戒める for ?commandment" and chousen 　挑戦　 for "challenge." Basically, I was picking words that were familiar first and then if I didn't know a word using a particular kanji, I picked a word that seemed common or useful. Maybe such a program isn't necessary for the more advanced learners who have already completed RTK1 in English.

p.s. If the kanji don't print, sorry, I'm working on it.

Laura Wrote:Not all kanji have 訓読み so that section will be incomplete.

This is true. I'm surprised by just how many kanji don't have 訓読み

Fabrice may or may not decide to use what we come up with. That's no reason not to give it a bash though. The google spreadsheet idea is much more user friendly than the Yahoo Group we were using earlier in the year. I love how you can just fire it up make a few updates then your changes are instantly viewable by others.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, I like the idea of using 訓読み as far as possible. On a personal level I need to work more on my 訓読み; I like the idea of having a clear system for these "Japanese keywords" (as opposed to random words that some of us think are appropriate).

But this sheet has more than just 訓読み

There are sentences and 音読み compounds too. So we can basically take from it what we want

Laura Wrote:I was hoping for what I thought wrightak et al. seemed to be in the process of creating at first-- a program, with cards and using the SRS system, linking a single Japanese word, using either the 訓読み (kunyomi) reading, or the 音読み(onyomi) reading to each of the Heisig kanji.

I don't know what you think is happening instead but what you describe above is exactly what I'm aiming for. Single Japanese word for each kanji.

It sounds as though you've done some work on this yourself. Would you like to contribute to the spreadsheet?

synewave Wrote:wrightak, JimmySeal and anyone else editing the Google spreadsheet. I added a few more columns to the sheet along the lines that Fabrice suggested.

synewave, maybe I'm interpretting Fabrice's suggestions differently but I thought that as far as possible we just wanted words, and example phrases would only be used when necessary. In the new columns you put in, some of the entries you've inserted include:

RTK - kunyomi word RTK - kunyomi reading English meaning
墓に花を供える はかにはなをそなえる place flowers on a grave
鏡に映る かがみにうつる be reflected in a mirror
（洗濯物を）外に干す （せんたくものを）そとにほす hang out (the laundry)

Would it not be better to keep the word and the phrases separate? So if "干す　（ほす）" is chosen as the Japanese keyword for the kanji "干", then we should have this as the Japanese keyword and keep an example phrase like （洗濯物を）外に干す in a separate column. This was why I put words on one sheet and example sentences or phrases on another sheet.

What do people think?