Rather than get into another argument with Tabberoth that ends with "oh you can't do that, that won't work", I'm just going to agree with what he's saying about switching the keywords.

Re the original [edit: #243] question: one approach is to switch to Japanese prompts in the order that you are learning to read/use kanji vocabulary. The RTK order makes sense for the RTK method. A different order makes sense when learning to read. (KIContext, for eg.) I suspend the RTKJ deck and unsuspend cards as I progress. This way I can modify the Japanese prompt or my story while I'm studying that kanji's vocab and meanings. You won't need the same reps/intervals as with RTK.

I also wanted to repeat some stuff here, mostly from Wrightak's posts and site, that I thought might be helpful and clarify things a bit.

The short: Being able to write 2042 kanji is an achievement! Congratulations to those who finished! And it does help with reading. It'd be a shame to lose the ability. If this resonates with you, consider Japanese prompts.

The -rather- long:

(1) Japanese prompts, like English keywords, are intended to be used as prompts to practice writing kanji. They are not meant to teach all readings or meanings of a kanji.

(2) Having a sense of the/a meaning of the kanji makes learning vocabulary easier and more fun. Japanese prompts avoid some of the problems inherent in using English keywords.

(3) I see two kinds of people using Japanese prompts: a) people who want to efficiently maintain their hard-earned ability to write the kanji post RTK, but want the English keywords to fade; b) people who come to RTK with sufficient Japanese skills to go through it with Japanese prompts.

A list of Japanese prompts for (a) doesn't need to correspond to RTK keywords. I think an alternative would be to use the keywords from Kanji in Context which were pre-selected by a team of educators. But the RTK connection both gives some people the option of doing RTK in Japanese, and allows people to keep their stories. (Linking the prompts to RTK made Wrightak's task more onerous - he likely did it so others could benefit.)

(4) To be SRS efficient, consider underlining and writing only the target kanji.

(5) While the idea is to select prompts close in meaning to the English keywords (where applicable), the Japanese prompts are not direct translations. I think this point will need to be stressed to avoid confusion if Fabrice decides to incorporate Japanese prompts on this site.

(6) Consider using the Japanese prompt sentences as a reference (usage example) rather than as part of the prompt. I will if drilling the sentence as well could eventually cause some confusion with the story. Where the prompt is a homonym, add some form of distinguishing clue.

Basically, don't do what I did. I learned 2000 kanji years ago, but unfortunately had to start over from 0 with RTK. ugh. Find ways to maintain what you have.

I often check henshall to help choose japanese and alternative english keywords. I just found an online index which could be useful to those without a copy of the book: http://dict.risukun.com/Henshall.htm

Tobberoth Wrote:Personally, I find using a Japanese keyword about equal to using an English keyword. I know, I know, AJATT AJATT English is dangerous and ruins your japanese yada yada, it isn't true however.

Using an English keyword to give a meaning of a kanji gives you what? An approximate meaning. 申 doesn't mean sayeth, but it gives you a pretty good indication of what it means. Let's say instead of sayeth, you go with 申します. What have you accomplished? It's still an approximation, you'd need 3-4 japanese words at least to get a better picture of the ACTUAL meaning of the kanji.

Trading the english keyword for a japanese one is just trading one simple association with another, it won't really give you anything. Some people will say it will teach you readings, but it only will if you add something you don't know. If you already know that 申 is used in 申します, you already know the reading and the word, you're not learning anything by using it as a keyword.

So personally, I think using Japanese keywords is worth it only if your Japanese vocabulary is very strong before you start with RTK1, and use Japanese keywords from the start. Going back and changing it won't really change anything, possibly if you are mixing up English keywords and think it will be easier with Japanese ones.

From page 308 of RTK1 4th edition, 3rd paragraph:

"...For much in the same way that the character slowly finds its way into the fabric of memory and muscular habits, the key word will gradually give way to a key concept distinct from the particular English word used to express it. Hence the substitution of a Japanese word - or even a number of words - will prove no stumbling block. Quite the contrary, it will help avoid confusion between key words with family resemblances."

vgambit Wrote:From page 308 of RTK1 4th edition, 3rd paragraph:

"...For much in the same way that the character slowly finds its way into the fabric of memory and muscular habits, the key word will gradually give way to a key concept distinct from the particular English word used to express it. Hence the substitution of a Japanese word - or even a number of words - will prove no stumbling block. Quite the contrary, it will help avoid confusion between key words with family resemblances."

Read my post again, in particular the last sentence. It does help when confusing keywords. I wouldn't consider it worth having to learn tons of new Japanese words JUST to have a japanese keyword for every kanji. "No stumbling block" is just wrong, I don't understand what Heisig means by that.. how can it not be a stumbling block to have a Japanese word you don't even know as a keyword? You will end up having to look it up every time, just like all those English keywords you don't know. That's certainly something I would call a stumbling block.

I think it's just hyperbole. We Greeks use that kind of language without a second thought. "No stumbling block" just means that it's usually easy. It just means that over time, you can gradually start replacing your English keywords with Japanese words.

I've always thought of most kanji using a Japanese keyword. To me 犬 is いぬ, not "dog". It's only when I don't know the reading or it's blindingly common like しょう or something that I was forced to think of the kanji in English.

With RTK, of course, I've been having to use English for all of them. However, I've been finding that I get do mixed up some times, especially if I don't know the English word or it's too similar with other words, and I've been starting to use that greasemonkey script to replace some kanji with Japanese keywords. We'll see how it goes.

How is looking up an English keyword any different from looking up a Japanese one? Particularly the English ones that don't even sound like English.

I get the feeling Heisig is saying "Don't use a Japanese keyword if you don't know the Japanese keyword." So don't force Japanese into this process, let it happen naturally. Until you learn words that use that particular kanji, and make suitable Japanese keywords, stick with the English keywords.

Granted, this is all a very fluid process. We're all going to go about it our own way. Most we do is offer advice and lessons learned.

That said, has anyone found a Japanese version of Remembering the Kanji or something similar? I'm not talking about the one made on this thread. I mean something using Heisig's methods but for native Japanese?.

Nukemarine Wrote:I get the feeling Heisig is saying "Don't use a Japanese keyword if you don't know the Japanese keyword." So don't force Japanese into this process, let it happen naturally. Until you learn words that use that particular kanji, and make suitable Japanese keywords, stick with the English keywords.

Exactly. However, I have noticed that some English keywords desperately need japanese words added so as to stop confusing them. For those, I recommend adding a Japanese keyword and immediately add example sentences with it in your Anki. It's not a very good solution since one might be affraid that the added exposure to the kanji in the example sentences will mess up long term memory... but I doubt that.

Of course, if you're one of the people doing RtK before starting the real japanese studies, this isn't an option.

You can change the keywords. I changed one of the storehouse/warehouse to granary.

Just in case there's anyone using (or planning to use) any of the stuff that I posted -

(For newcomers, write-up here: http://wrightak.googlepages.com/afterrtk1)

The flashcards that I've created have evolved a bit over time. I've replaced some Japanese keywords, inserted some of the missing ones and edited others. Specifically, when the keyword is a compound, instead of asking for both kanji, I've made the card easier by asking for just one. e.g.

Q: かくにん（かく認）
A: 確
確認

I made the above change to a small number of cards that I was finding difficult and I realized that it was a good idea and should be done for all cards. This keeps to the minimum information principle and you can always add more cards (e.g. asking for the other kanji), if you want to test yourself further.

When I have some time, I'm planning on posting the updated version of my deck.

Okay so here's my situation: I'm above jlpt 2 level for my vocab/reading. i know vocab for probably 1600 or so of the kanji. But I can't write any of them properly(my stroke order is completely wrong, and I have huge amounts of problems remembering the kanji when writing). Going Through 100 hours of English to To learn the kanji, seems like a huge wastE of time I Could be spending In Japanese

I actually made up my own flash card system based on similar looking parts when learning the kanji, with a mixture of kun yomi readings/English keywords and on yomi readings. but the entire thing is entirely messed up(using similar looking radicals as keywords), most of the stories are stuff like （大きい CHANGES　（Heisg's TUrky)　ATTACHED　To　YOU get 奪った a Lot). I can generally write most of the kanji that someone can understand what Kanji I meant, but with just horrible stroke order/ forgot radicals etc.

I want to finally be able to write the kanji properly.

The problem I see with going from Japanese key words, is how do I create effectively stories to remember how to Properly　write the kanji? My memory in Japanese is horrible, so having 2300 Japanese stories would take me forever. At this point would it just be better for me to go the Japanese school kid route? what do you guys think?

koyota Wrote:Okay so here's my situation: I'm above jlpt 2 level for my vocab/reading. i know vocab for probably 1600 or so of the kanji. But I can't write any of them properly(my stroke order is completely wrong, and I have huge amounts of problems remembering the kanji when writing). Going Through 100 hours of English to To learn the kanji, seems like a huge wastE of time I Could be spending In Japanese

I actually made up my own flash card system based on similar looking parts when learning the kanji, with a mixture of kun yomi readings/English keywords and on yomi readings. but the entire thing is entirely messed up(using similar looking radicals as keywords), most of the stories are stuff like （大きい CHANGES　（Heisg's TUrky)　ATTACHED　To　YOU get 奪った a Lot). I can generally write most of the kanji that someone can understand what Kanji I meant, but with just horrible stroke order/ forgot radicals etc.

I want to finally be able to write the kanji properly.

The problem I see with going from Japanese key words, is how do I create effectively stories to remember how to Properly　write the kanji? My memory in Japanese is horrible, so having 2300 Japanese stories would take me forever. At this point would it just be better for me to go the Japanese school kid route? what do you guys think?

I had already passed JLPT2 when I started doing RtK, for the same reasons as you. Trust me, it's so awesome, you learn to write all the kanji perfectly from memory.

I would recommend you using Anki and going with the keywords from the book BUT since you can edit cards as much as you want in Anki, you can include japanese keywords as well. That way, your story should be about the keyword but if you're ever unsure which kanji is meant, you'll have japanese words which show you.

koyota Wrote:My memory in Japanese is horrible, so having 2300 Japanese stories would take me forever. At this point would it just be better for me to go the Japanese school kid route? what do you guys think?

The idea behind Japanese keywords isn't to make Japanese stories too. The stories don't change, just the prompt that's on the question part of your flash card.

I still envisage a scorpion dripping out its poison to form a pond for 池. The only difference after changing to Japanese keywords is that the question part of my flashcard now says "いけ" instead of "pond".

Have you done RTK 1? If not, what I just said might not make much sense. If you haven't done it, then you sound like an good candidate. I was in a similar position to you when I started it. Now I can write all of the kanji.

If you concentrate, you can get through it in a few months.

So I was wondering.
I have downloaded the deck for Anki.
BUT!
He advices you to do it in the Heisig order again. Only I can't find out how...
If I sort it in either: Date created, modified or added, it all comes just alphabetically in order.
I can't seem to find how to set my anki deck to show those 1800 cards in the Heisig order. Anyone knows how?

Thanks!

-Mesqueeb

Mesqueeb Wrote:So I was wondering.
I have downloaded the deck for Anki.
BUT!
He advices you to do it in the Heisig order again. Only I can't find out how...
If I sort it in either: Date created, modified or added, it all comes just alphabetically in order.
I can't seem to find how to set my anki deck to show those 1800 cards in the Heisig order. Anyone knows how?

Thanks!

-Mesqueeb

Suspend all of the cards and then unsuspend them as you study.

Mesqueeb Wrote:If I sort it in either: Date created, modified or added, it all comes just alphabetically in order.

As Jarvik says, if none of those ordering work (which surprises me), you can open the editor, sort by frame number and suspend the ones you don't want to study yet.

However, what do you mean by "alphabetically in order"? You mean that cards that start with あ will come first? Maybe I'm missing something obvious here...

This is my first post in forum section. I haven`t yet read through the whole topic yet, so if the following idea was already discussed, I beg your pardon. The question is simple - Instead of trying to determine which word to choose for japanese keyword, whether it should be kun-yomi or on-yomi or compound word or short sentence, why not to simply add all known on-yomi and kun-yomi to each character under the english keyword.

I think that this on and kun-yomi will serve as a kind of hint when reviewing. For example, today I made a mistake while reviewing the kanji for "private". Somehow, I was thinking about "individual", instead. I mean, if there were a hint - japanese reading "わたし" under the english keyword - I would never make such mistake.

There are people who advocate the inclusion of the whole mnemonic story on the question side, when reviewing. Perhaps, it will make the whole reviewing process way too simple, but inclusion of japanese on and kun readings (not for learning them all separately and out of the context, but as a hint on a question side) seems like a fair play. Besides, everybody has there own association with the keyword, and it may be not a good idea to single out one japanese word as a keyword. In that case, the list of japanese keywords will always be criticized in the same way, as we criticize some of the keyword choices made by Heisig himself.

I think that the question side can look for example like this (private シ わたくし わたし) or (individual コ カ). In this case, the japanese reading may help to differentiate between english synonyms or, in case when the japanese reading are the same, the english keyword will also be helpful to understand what kanji is in question. By the way, in this case, native japanese may also use this site (not for the learning though, but in order to test themselves in kanji).

LazyNomad, that's a great suggestion. I've been doing that for the last month or so since I moved from RevTK to Anki.

What I do show the Keyword, English meanings, Yomi to then draw out the kanji. I also do recognition. Adding English meanings and yomi has really helped with the vague or similar meaning Heisig keywords.

Hmm, I thought I put that spreadsheet on Google but it's not there. I'll post it later, but it'll have - Kanji, English meaning, Heisig Keyword, On and Kun pronuciations, and other info.

What you suggest is very similar to the approach I use. For example, for 私 my prompt is as follows:

private / し / わたし / SHIritsu

It basically consists of keyword / onyomi / kunyomi and a kanji compound. Although it can still happen occasionally, this makes it very rare that I recall the wrong kanji.

This helps with memorising the readings, too. Although they are not explicitly tested, I am at least exposed to them and after 1000's of reps in my SRS I find that I remember the reading of most kanji most of the time.

As an aside, I have also adjusted the English keywords where necessary to make them much closer to the meaning of the kanji as it is used in actual Japanese vocabulary. Once you include the yomi in the prompt, it takes away the need for "single unique keyword" to indentify each kanji and this allows you to get back to the true meaning of the kanji. You can also use multiple keywords where necessary, as many kanji have two or more distinct meanings. This in turn helps with vocabulary acquisition in due course, as they become more closely linked.

Thank you for replies. Of course, it can be done in your own SRS, but if it could be done within a site, I think I wouldn`t be bothered to switch to Anki for kanji reviewing. I would instead use Anki only for putting sentences in it. I don`t want to stop using this site scheduled review system after finishing RTK and to start the whole thing over in SRS. But sometime, I feel like I am doing an extra effort trying not to forget the association with the english keyword. Especially, given the fact that english is not my mother tongue language. If at some point the english keyword becomes not necessary to remember the kanji, then it is only natural to stop relying on it during reviews when such time comes.
I am not sure though, if the inclusion of compound words is necessary. They would better be learned usiing Anki within a certain sentence context. Maybe the exception should be made only for kanjis that don`t have kun-readings and solely for the hint purposes.

LazyNomad Wrote:Thank you for replies. Of course, it can be done in your own SRS, but if it could be done within a site, I think I wouldn`t be bothered to switch to Anki for kanji reviewing. I would instead use Anki only for putting sentences in it. I don`t want to stop using this site scheduled review system after finishing RTK and to start the whole thing over in SRS. But sometime, I feel like I am doing an extra effort trying not to forget the association with the english keyword. Especially, given the fact that english is not my mother tongue language. If at some point the english keyword becomes not necessary to remember the kanji, then it is only natural to stop relying on it during reviews when such time comes.
I am not sure though, if the inclusion of compound words is necessary. They would better be learned usiing Anki within a certain sentence context. Maybe the exception should be made only for kanjis that don`t have kun-readings and solely for the hint purposes.

So use a greasemonkey script to add japanese keywords on this site.

http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/7118

Tobberoth, thanks a lot for the link. I have installed and tried "substitute keyword" script, and it`s just what I wanted.
I have noticed that the script made it considerably slower, but it added the functionality I wanted.

After failing to do well on an exam that had a written part where the number of characters you could use in an answer was limited to some multiple of 10 (stock phrases help), instead of, or rather in addition to the usual multiple choice brand of questions, I've decided to get serious with writing. I'm now plowing through the Japanese prompts Excel sheet, adding omitted kanji at a rate of 12 per day. Most of my example sentences are taken from my trusty Seiko electronic dictionary.

I'm wiling to fill in the gaps on the Google spreadsheet itself if I can get write access to it. Google user account name the same as here. Wrightak?

I am using a variation of this method, and it is working very well so far. I would like to know if you see any downside.
I use both keywords together, one along the other, like:

parking (ちゅうしゃ)
nightfall (こんばん)
behind (うしろ)

I highlight in red the on-yomi and in blue the kun-yomi.
I try to use the Japanese word most frequent for each kanji in google.co.jp
In found that Wrigtak sometimes uses a frequent word, but sometimes he doesn't, maybe because he prefers to use keywords with kun-yomi.
I don't use example sentences.