Back

Does input=output???

#1
Hey guys! This is my first time posting a topic on the forum, please be kind!!

I really wonder whether input=output???

I have began intensively studying Japanese since Dec last year, so 4 months has passed. I had some Japanese foundation before that so I basically picked up were i left off. I used the "input-method" as recommended by many. SRSing, watching dramas, reading tons of blogs, listening to podcast everyday. I actually enjoy the process, it actually makes me feel uneasy if I don't do something "Japanese" everyday.

Well, for the past 4 months, I kind of believed that output will come naturally to me. Boy, I was wronggggg...I started to attend a Japanese conversation class a month ago where I got the opportunity to speak to a native Japanese. I essentially spoke rubbish!!! My mind was blank and I was so slow in forming sentences I ended up using words to make myself understood.

After a few session, my spoken Japanese is getting nowhere...and it is kind of depressing...My reading and listening has definitely improved, but speaking is crap. Therefore, I started to wonder about the "input=output" theory. Does it really work?? Or maybe I am just stupid??? Hahah, and it does not help that I am too shy to use Skype to practice!

So what are your thoughts on this?? How did you guys overcome this speaking barrier???

Thanks!! Smile
Reply
#2
I don't think they are equal, just one is required in order to do the other.

How could you output if you never had any input? You can't since learning grammar and vocab is from input.

Have you used lang-8? It may be useful for you before you have the confidence to skype.
Reply
#3
Hiya,

no, input doesn't = output, don't worry, you're perfectly normal. Smile

I wouldn't really recommend you start trying to output stuff that you've never come across as an input very much, because it's less likely to come out sounding natural. But, you do need to train speaking, just like you need to train other skills.

Other people say it's not necessary, and perhaps it's not for them, who knows? But most people do need to practise.

I've been learning Japanese for 3 years now, and still wouldn't be able to hold a conversation. I can write, but very slowly. So i suggest you don't wait any longer to begin practising outputting!!!

About Skype... well, honestly, i haven't found a good way of learning to speak without doing that. I haven't done that either though, hahah.

i've actually given up on speaking Japanese now, though i'm using different methods for learning French that will mean i output about 1 month after any input right from the start. Basically, i'm switching my card models to E-F after 1 month of reviewing them and testing output from English for short phrases and interjections and stuff, (e.g. QUESTION: "we owe it to ourselves", ANSWER: "nous nous devons", or QUESTION: "on the other hand" ANSWER: "en revanche". There'll also be a short note saying where i first heard the phrase to add a bit more context and not confuse myself). For nouns though, there will be just a picture of the thing as a question, no english.

I've been told again and again by certain people not to do this. However, since those same people are the ones who say that output will come naturally, i'm finally just going to ignore that.

It's not like i can "recommend" doing this, since i haven't done it yet, and have no idea how effective it'll be. Seems to me that it'll be more effective than doing nothing, but also have it's own limitations. Anyway, i'll let you know how it goes Smile
Edited: 2012-04-05, 3:42 am
Reply
May 16 - 30 : Pretty Big Deal: Save 31% on all Premium Subscriptions! - Sign up here
JapanesePod101
#4
I haven't Tongue.

I started doing my sentence practice by reading them out loud. It gave me a pretty cool boost, and I find it easier for the words to leave my mouth now. Also, Lang8 for written output practice.
Reply
#5
For starters you said you've only been studying for 4 months. In Japanese terms that is a very short period of time unless you are just an extremely hardcore self studier. Heck even then 4 months is still a very short period of time. The fact that you've just started really trying to speak about a month ago and still suck at it is exactly as one would expect. Expect to be that way for a very long time haha.

And yes input does lead to output but not in some magical way. You aren't going to wake up one day after years of input only study and just start producing native level Japanese. As another poster says you really can't output without having input to begin with. The purpose of the input focused approach, in my mind at least, is for you to build a ton of comprehension as to what good Japanese is before you go and start practicing the thing were you can actually make mistakes and create bad habits, aka output.
Reply
#6
I also recommend Lang-8 for good writing output practice, although it's not quite the same as speaking, it has improved my Japanese output quite a lot I think. Smile I am also too shy to use Skype, so the only real speaking practice I get is talking to myself in the shower, and the few occasions I dared to speak to someone in Japanese when I was in Japan on holiday. I can't really gauge how good I am at speaking but I imagine I'm quite bad at it... but on the other hand, I don't really need to be good at it right now since I have nobody to speak to anyway. I am going to Japan again this year, and will try speaking then, but as a backup, I am going to carry a notepad and pen so I can write it down!
Edited: 2012-04-05, 8:18 am
Reply
#7
Think of input/recognition training as setting up a scaffolding for output. You have the words locked away somewhere in your head and associated to the semantic meaning in your native language but you can't get to them easily via output. Slowly but surely you'll come build up the system and strengthen what you already know as input so you can use it as output.
Reply
#8
Yeah, I did loads of input for 3-4 years, and never really started speaking Japanese fluently until I got my butt into an environment where I had to speak it 6-8 hours a day in language classes, and was expected to speak it everywhere I went. (I know that's not necessarily helpful, but that's my experience.)

Now that I'm back in the US, trying to build that kind of environment is *really* difficult.

But the input I did was useful, in that it gave me general knowledge of the language, and some of the vocabulary does stick in my head. The more I use it in conversations, the better I remember it. Same goes for writing.

The other thing that speaking a lot helped me with was getting rid of the nervous feeling about making mistakes. I make loads of mistakes, and the world, amazingly, does not end. I do try to improve, but it takes work.

Anki is great, but it's more of a maintenance thing than anything else. It points out where my language skills are fine, and where they have gotten flabby. Of course I also use it to increase my passive vocabulary, so I can read more things. And the more I read, the better the chance is that some of my passive vocabulary will become active.

(Edited for coherence. Tongue)
Edited: 2012-04-05, 10:43 am
Reply
#9
I can assure you, no matter what your native language is you can understand 99.5% (statistic made up by me on the fly) of superb quality language thrown at you (poetry, speeches, eloquent conversation partners) but that doesn't mean you can produce them yourself. Sorry but you suck, badly, even in your native language (if you don't you'll forgive me for saying so), why do you expect it to be any different in your L2 language?

Input will never be close to your output no matter the language!!!
Edited: 2012-04-05, 10:52 am
Reply
#10
No, input doesn't equal output. A lot of people have invested a lot of time figuring that out, so you can count yourself lucky that you found out so early.

However, I'd offer a different equation. I'd say that if you continue to expose yourself to a healthy dose of Japanese, output will mean better input comprehension. It may seem like a self-fulfulling prophesy, since the idea that more input will lead to better input comprehension is not far fetched, but the idea is that if you maintain enough input to feed your output, you will gain a better understanding of input you might not have otherwise understood. Speak, speak, get enough input to know how to speak more, then speak some more.

IceCream Wrote:(e.g. QUESTION: "we owe it to ourselves", ANSWER: "nous nous devons", [...]).
I'd suggest "we owe it to ourselves to" = "nous nous devons de", otherwise you'll have no way to know that you need "de". Without "to", your translation isn't accurate anyway because the French is an incomplete sentence.
Edited: 2012-04-05, 11:55 am
Reply
#11
^^ thanks!!! Smile added!!
Reply
#12
IceCream, I'm in the same boat as you. Been studying just over three years now and am totally fed up with my production failures. Despite what people say, I've created some minor production decks that I'm toying with and I'm finding now that they are quite useful and that I'm starting to speak more. Some comments on this topic, as it is touchy:
1) the years of passive input and vocab building are definitely helping. I can read and write with little effort.
2) when I tried production years ago it was really hard and taxing, but now, mostly thanks to point (1) I find looking at an entire sentence and memorizing it for brute-forced production efforts to be pretty simple.
3) with regard to point (2) I can't legitimately recommend production at an early stage
4) despite point (3), i totally recommend starting to speak as soon as possible. I think the key is to not get too ambitious. Of course anyone can brute force memorize a long and complex sentence their first day studying but those sentences will be HARD. if you're going with production cover all the 3 or 4-word sentences and interjections you can, as ice cream suggests. Those will be useful, natural sounding, and much easier to remember. Also, with those mastered you'll be able to hear them very very frequently in natural listening and that will help with overall parsing of audio input/conversation.

just my two cents! I'm switching from 110% passive vocab/reading/listening to as much production as possible, so i'll see how this goes 6 months from now!

k.
Reply
#13
cool, i'm glad i'm not alone!!! Big Grin let's both definately remember to report how it goes!!! If it works, perhaps it'll help others too... i'm also very interested in hearing from someone who's doing it with Japanese, because French has many more expressions that seem to map 1-1 onto english, so it's a little easier there.

But yeah, short phrases and interjections are the way to go, i think. Memorising huge chunks of text or complex sentences probably isn't ever going to be especially useful... they need to be small pieces of language that you can put together to express your own ideas really, i guess.
Reply
#14
Native speakers who are shy and quiet aren't as eloquent as talkative guys either, and just because you've been exposed to the standard dialect of your native language in media since you were born doesn't mean you can fake the neutral accent like professional voice talents. The same goes for writing. The more you write, the better you're at it, regardless of whether it's your first or second language. Without practice, your writing can't be good.

So, even with native proficiency in a language, you need practice to an extent. If your grammar is shaky and your vocabulary is tiny, it must be much harder. So if you completely ignore speaking/writing practice of any kind, your output skills won't improve much.

But you can't improve your output skills without developing good listening and/or reading skills first. And it's absolutely normal that your passive skills outperform your active skills by a huge degree. Your average guy may be able to enjoy great novels and appreciate believable acting in your native language, but they're not as good at writing or acting as professional novelists or actors. Not even close. You can tell the quality of writing, speech, acting, etc., though not as reliably as experts in each field. But you can't write or deliver speech effectively without training. And if you can't see the difference between good and poor performances in the first place, there's no way you can be good at production.

I do think 4 moths is too short to acquire sufficient listening and reading skills. I don't think you can have foundations decent enough to develop great output skills on top of them in such a short period of time.

But if you do believe you've developed good enough listening/reading skills and are still struggling to improve output skills, maybe that's because you're only good at listening/reading "comprehension." I don't think good comprehension alone helps much when it comes to developing linguistic intuition that allows you to tell if a given sentence is right or wrong, which I think is a necessary skill to be proficient in speaking and writing.

You might be wondering what the difference is between good listening/reading and good comprehension. I think the difference is how well you can detect errors. For example, you listen to a pair of complete sentences in Japanese where one is grammatically perfect and sounds natural and the other has a simple error such as particle は swapped with が. With good listening skills, you should be able to catch the nonstandard use of the particle just like native speakers would. But you can perfectly comprehend the intended meaning if you fail to notice the error. So, you can be pretty good at comprehension without good listening skills.

Noticing unusual usages of particles and other little grammar rules isn't the only thing that separates good listening from good comprehension. You may be good at comprehension but suck at listening if you are not good at catching slight differences in prosody, intonation, tone of voice, and such. Just because you have good comprehension doesn't mean you can hear accents, dialectical differences, and the like either.

If you don't notice the difference between 今日はどこ行こっか vs. 今日どこ行こうか when spoken to you or when reading them quickly, you won't acquire linguistic intuition native speakers have because to you they're exactly the same when they're not to native speakers. The intended meanings are pretty much the same in this example, but a slight change can alter the meaning of a sentence drastically too.

So, in short, your comprehension can be pretty good even if you always ignore certain details. And if you always ignore them, you won't have good listening/reading skills that form the foundations of your output skills.

Obviously, your speaking and writing can only be as good as your listening and reading at best. And if you're measuring your passive skills by your comprehension level, you might feel like your active skills are always shaky and won't improve by exposure because you're practically ignoring details when listening and reading but you probably care about details more when speaking and writing. Of course, you can speak or write fluently if you're ok with poor grammar, pronunciation, spelling etc. With a little practice, you'll reach the level your true listening/reading skills allow. It's just you can't expect great results just because your comprehension level is great.

Improving listening (not comprehension) and paying more attention to details when reading is an obvious solution to this problem. If you're having trouble hearing certain sounds or sequences of sounds, there are lots of promising methods out there. Some are just anecdotal, and others are verified by serious research. You can pick your favorite method and see if it works for you.

Learning grammar can be helpful to an extent as well. It only improves comprehension as far as listening goes, but you can definitely benefit from solid grammar knowledge when writing. Also, it helps you accurately guess the part you couldn't hear if you know the speaker is strictly following proper grammar rules. It doesn't fix your listening problem, but it's much better than ignoring the details you can't hear, I think.

There must be many other ways to address this. But the point is that improving comprehension alone won't get you very far when it comes to output. You should pay attention to details you might have ignored. If you don't notice when one particle is wrong when it's obvious to native speakers, it's only natural you make the same kind of error in speaking/writing. Exposure alone won't fix that if you keep ignoring details. If you're frustrated that you can't form a grammatically correct sentence quickly when your comprehension level must be good enough, maybe it's because you can't judge the grammatical correctness at the speed spontaneous speech or writing requires. If you think it takes too long to come up with the right word, maybe that's because you can't tell when the wrong but similar word is used when you read quickly or listen to dialogue at a normal speed.

So, I think the root cause of your problem is the simple and obvious fact that your speaking and writing are never better than your listening and reading. If you can't detect the discrepancy between correct and natural wording X and a slightly different and unnatural version Y when spoken to you or when you read them, it would be too much to expect to be able to form the correct form X at a natural speed in spontaneous conversation, texting, and so on. Certainly things aren't that simple, and there must be many other factors. But reading your post (and many others' posts by beginners), I kind of feel like some people just don't get the idea that your active skills (i.e., writing and speaking) can't be better than your passive skills (i.e., reading and listening).
Edited: 2012-04-05, 9:39 pm
Reply
#15
I'll add my 2 cents in here and tell you from my experience with the vast language that is Japanese. First off can you gain advanced skills from reading and listening (input skills)? Yes and no. How does this work exactly? It's a double edge sword as it does help no matter how you look at it but it won't turn you from zero to 100% native speaker. I focused on mastering kana+kanji(RTK books) in the beginning phases, I then jumped to the sentence method and listened like no tomorrow. It worked but I felt that vocabulary was the issue (passive vocabulary was so bad back then and I couldn't read much kanji well and at a smooth rate). I then focused on separate words and started a vocabulary deck(this helped me read at an advanced level and understand from audio alone).

Doing this for 1 year and a half I managed to pull myself from novice beginner to advanced level of reading and listening. You'll notice I didn't say anything about how I outputted any Japanese, I had zero output(maybe here and there but nothing serious). Once September came around (2 year mark) I decided it's time to get my speaking/writing skills up and running. I'm still struggling with these skills but it's getting easier and easier the more I keep at it. So I've come to the conclusion of this: the reason why I got better at reading/listening was simple because I keep experimenting with different methods and investing a whole lot of time. I'm confident the same will come for my speaking/writing skills in Japanese. I just need to invest the time in.

I estimate 5 years to be fluent in all skills. Why am I giving myself so much time? To give myself time and space to learn and relax. Life isn't straight forward as now I work 2 jobs and to go to school. I'm off for the summer (just working) but I want to get myself Japanese studies back to the intense amounts it once was (don't worry I can handle a lot of immersion nowadays)
Edited: 2012-04-06, 12:50 am
Reply
#16
Hi all thanks for sharing all your wonderful insights!!

I will continue to work hard!!!

Thanks! Smile
Reply
#17
I dont know. As far as I have experienced, input only to the extent where you understand a good portion of conversation will allow you to produce simple, correct sentences in conversation, but trying to produce dialog like a native would will be riddled with errors. Not only is it grammatically problematic, but producing vocabulary is also a big hurdle.

Not exactly experiencing the "words just flow out" thing described by input only methods. Well, words flow out, but they are mostly incorrect. However, if your goal is to be able to communicate what you need and dont feel the need to communicate on an equal, casual or business level, then input only should be fine.

Judging from what some polyglots say, people like me need to start talking a few hours at least every day for a few months. Finding a partner who will gladly listen to caveman talk is a challenge however.
Reply