I've got a mate in my compsci 101 class that's Japanese and of course, being able to study at university level in English, he speaks good English. We generally talk in whatever language we feel like cos there are no communication issues in either and we get along really well. Anyway, he's a really switched on guy and loves to analyze almost everything and lately we spend time chatting about stereotypical Japanese English and then proceeding to laugh our asses off. Needless to say there's a lot of funny moments.

So today he posted this on Facebook and it's really rather a concise explanation of exactly why katakana pronunciation is not a fit way to represent English words when trying to learn the English language. Thought I'd share it cos some of you mind find it interesting.

英語には、日本語の「フ」、と「ツ」という音がない。
逆に考えると、カタカナ表記した場合に「フ」や「ツ」が出てくることは”ありえない”
つまり、「フィッシュ」、「フル」、「フォーク」、「ツー」、「ツイン」等の「フ」、「ツ」を含むすべての単語は発音的に完全に間違っている。

あと、日本人にはBとVの発音の違いがどうとか言っている人がいるが、
... 口の使い方でいくと、BはPと同じであり、VはFと同じである。違いは震わせるかどうか。

日本語には代表的なもので、「C」、「R」、「L」、「T」、「V」、「W」、「X」、「Y」、「Z」「Th」の音が存在しない。ということは、これらが使われている単語は、基本的にすべてカタカナを使って表記（発音）できない。（例：cell, right, light, teach, vanish, walk, exite, year, zip, think)
さらに、日本語には母音を伴わない音はN以外にないので、N以外の子音で終わる単語も発音できない。（例：Fight,better,glass）

これでなぜ日本人が世界で一番英語が話せないか、わかるのではないでしょうか。

■発音熟練度チェック■
01. C
02. Fish
03. Fight
04. right
05. Light
06. Real
07. Play
08. Pray
09. Virus
10. Woman
11. Walk
12. Work
13. Think
14. That
15. Hat
16. Little
17. Year と ear 発音の違い分かりますか？
これらは全て、カタカナ表記と実際の発音が異なる単語です。
10以上完璧に発音できたら、日本人平均よりは間違いなく上でしょう・・・

mezbup Wrote:これでなぜ日本人が世界で一番英語が話せないか、わかるのではないでしょうか。

Note, though, that this line is silly. The reason Japan is ranked so much lower in English than, say, other Asian countries like China or Korea is bad statistics rather than actual English ability. Usually it's because the type of people who are taking internationally recognized English proficiency tests are different. You get a lot of professionals taking them in China or Korea, and then in Japan you get a lot of professionals... and a lot of high school students and house wives that are just doing it for fun to test their own abilities.

Then you get newspapers in Japan pointing out that the average TOEIC score in China is 840 but the average in Japan is 480.

That's basically how the myth of 'the Japanese are worse at English than everyone else' myth got started. English ability in Asia is a lot more uniform than Japanese news articles would have you believe. Virtually everyone in Japan eats up the story though.

I don't know. I'm sure there's a lot of bored house wives and high school students taking TOIEC in china and korea. Especially Korea I think is also a particularly exam-centric and ultra competitive society. I honestly don't know, but where are you getting that information from.


I think one thing the chinese have going for them is the fact that a lot of them (most?) are bilingual (mandarin + another chinese language), so english is L3 for them.

I've thought quite a bit about the katakana issue and don't really think it's as much of an issue as many people think. The real problem is the dearth of listening practice, that's why japanese who have spent time abroad tend to have way better pronunciation and often pick up local accents.

I can't seem to find the figures online, but I originally heard them in a lecture of an English Professor big-shot from Tokyo (I can't remember his name, unfortunately) who was asked by the Kyoto Board of Education to give advice for changes in English language education in Kyoto.

Japanese people take the TOEIC way more than any other country, with Korea being second. Japan and Korea together take the test more than the rest of the world combined. Japanese people also take the test over and over again to test their improvement, which is rare in other countries.

At any rate, the professor had done surveys in Japan showing the reasons that most people take the test in Japan and there were a substantial portion that did it just for fun/to test their own abilities/because their teacher told them to. He also knew a lot of history about the perception of English teaching in Japan as pushed by the media, and showed ridiculous news stories in all the big name papers that used bad statistics.

And, well, even if we grant that Koreans also take the test in large numbers, they are the only other country that does. Which means that if TOEIC is a useful way to compare English ability it would only be useful to compare it to Korea rather than the rest of Asia or the world, who take the TOEIC in a far different way.

Where I live there are lots of Chinese and lots of Koreans (and by lots I mean a metric shit tonne) and a few Japanese. The Chinese and Koreans all speak excellent English (bar a few), the Japanese all speak shite English (bar a few).

I actually do think the sounds of the language have a lot to do with things. Korean and Japanese grammar (word order) are the same yet Koreans speak far better English than Japanese do.

I really don't think it's a myth...

Where do you live and why would the population of Koreans Chinese and Japanese where you live are representative of the whole?

I've been to Korea twice, and I've even taught a couple English classes there as a guest teacher. So I've spent about three weeks in Korea total.

I've been to China too (though, only for a few days since I spent most of the time in Tibet... there's a *cough*country*cough* where nobody speaks English, haha)

Saw a lot of cultural differences between Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese (for example, Koreans and Chinese are more talkative to people they don't know), but I didn't see anything that made it obvious that one country was considerably better than any of the others in terms of the average person's speaking ability.

I've been to Europe too, where it IS obvious that the English ability is higher than Japan... and China and Korea.

mezbup Wrote:Where I live there are lots of Chinese and lots of Koreans (and by lots I mean a metric shit tonne) and a few Japanese. The Chinese and Koreans all speak excellent English (bar a few), the Japanese all speak shite English (bar a few).

I actually do think the sounds of the language have a lot to do with things. Korean and Japanese grammar (word order) are the same yet Koreans speak far better English than Japanese do.

I really don't think it's a myth...

I don't think there's any truth to this. Where I live, or in any other place I've lived for that matter, I can't see a significant difference between how well Koreans, Japanese and Chinese speak English. It has everything to do with how long they have been learning the language in an English environment, how young they were when they arrived, or how much they have allowed themselves to fray beyond Asian-only social circles.

Tzadeck Wrote:The reason Japan is ranked so much lower in English than, say, other Asian countries like China or Korea is bad statistics rather than actual English ability. Usually it's because the type of people who are taking internationally recognized English proficiency tests are different. You get a lot of professionals taking them in China or Korea, and then in Japan you get a lot of professionals... and a lot of high school students and house wives that are just doing it for fun to test their own abilities.

I have handled overseas student admissions now for several years, and among those who apply to my UK uni, there is a colossal difference between the English language skills of Chinese and Korean compared Japanese applicants. So we're looking at a group of students with very good grades (GPA3.8+ or 90% plus average if from China) who actually all want to study in an English-speaking country... no housewives etc.

I could fill up every single spot in our program with Chinese and Korean students who have sufficient English language skills, which is an IELTS compound score of 6.5, "Competent user: has generally effective command of the language despite some inaccuracies, inappropriacies and misunderstandings. Can use and understand fairly complex language, particularly in familiar situations" (hello IELTS people: "inappropriacy" is not a word.)

We have 10-15 students every year applying from Japan. In three years, I have been able to admit ONE student who had a good enough score, and I later got flak from the people who taught this particular student because his English was terrible. I have never come across a Japanese applicant who had a verbal GRE higher than in the 70th percentile, and that just doesn't cut it for most serious graduate programs.

The real shame is that these Japanese students are outstanding in every other respect, because no matter what people say, Japanese school education is still extremely good. Their math skills blow every European student away, but not just that, they have great ideas for research and they also look very well-educated in every respect except... English-language skills. I've had countless Chinese students with terrible English, but a few were totally fluent even though they had never left China before coming to the UK. I have two Korean students who sound almost like native speakers after three years here. And obviously I would have rather more Japanese than Chinese or Korean students, if only to chat occasionally for a minute after class.

I really don't know what the problem is, but I tend to think it's a mixture of terrible English instruction in high school, "let's rent-a-foreign-friend" attitude to 英会話 classes, lack of self-esteem and engrained perfectionism, and the same nonsense 日本人論 that teaches them that their intestines are shorter/longer (I forgot which one) than those of non-Japanese people. But in my little non-random sample, the Japanese are speaking the poorest English.

My wife has one of the best, if not the best, English accents that I have ever heard from a Japanese person. She says that she thinks one of the main reasons she does is because of all the English music she listened to and sang when she was younger. (even she didn't know what the words meant) People often ask her does she speak Japanese and has she ever been to Japan. Despite the fact she has only been in the USA for 3 years.

AlexandreC Wrote:I don't think there's any truth to this.Where I live, or in any other place I've lived for that matter, I can't see a significant difference between how well Koreans, Japanese and Chinese speak English. It has everything to do with how long they have been learning the language in an English environment, how young they were when they arrived, or how much they have allowed themselves to fray beyond Asian-only social circles.

You can think there's as little truth to it as you want. However, I see it every single day of my life. I go to a university of 40,000 students and of that 15,000 are Asian. Lots of Chinese, lots of Koreans, some Malaysian and about 10 Japanese.

I guess I say they have the worst English because they don't have a presence in English speaking countries like Chinese or Koreans do. You really wanna defend them and say they are better? It doesn't make sense. I don't mean individually, I mean it as a whole they are the bottom of the pile when it comes to English. If you're saying "that's not true!!!!" then you are implying they are better than either the Chinese or Koreans... Are you really willing to so far as to say that? Cos I certainly am not.

I think AlexandreC is talking about people from Japan who are living in an English-speaking country when everyone else is talking about people living in Japan and what they've learned in the Japanese education system.

Naturally, a Japanese person has the same chance of developing good language skills as anyone else, if he's living in a country where that language is spoken. It's only in the home country that education systems (and specifically kana representation of vocabulary words) are going to matter.

Edit: Also, I should note that Japan is pretty much a first world country, and people aren't exactly desperate to leave it for greener pastures, which probably affects motivation; and of course, Japan is a pretty small island nation - with a particularly small young population with the population decline - and simply doesn't have as many people available as candidates to travel abroad.
Those factors should be controlled for when considering ratios of foreign students and their English skills.

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Also, I should note that Japan is pretty much a first world country, and people aren't exactly desperate to leave it for greener pastures

Haha, I think you mean 'is a first world country.' (^_^)v

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Also, I should note that Japan is pretty much a first world country, and people aren't exactly desperate to leave it for greener pastures, which probably affects motivation; and of course, Japan is a pretty small island nation - with a particularly small young population with the population decline - and simply doesn't have as many people available as candidates to travel abroad.
Those factors should be controlled for when considering ratios of foreign students and their English skills.

Exactly.

They obviously all have the same skills, but Chinese and Korean students often prepare for years in order to go study abroad, while Japanese students often go abroad for a few months or a year at most as exchange students. That's where the difference comes from.

Otherwise, the students who haven't necessarily been "groomed" to come study overseas progress just the same way, whether they are Chinese, Korean or Japanese, when they are put in the same ESL class.

Irixmark, your example is more interesting, but of course it's biased (all the people you've dealt with are the people who have applied to your university; it's not a random sample of people so by definition it's biased).

For example, three of the Japanese high schools I've worked at do exchange programs where Japanese schools live abroad for a year and students from abroad come here. In the case of high schools it's biased because on the Japanese side of this exchange who can go is pretty much decided based on who wants to go. Not a lot of students are willing to go since they're worried about entrance exams (interestingly, this means that the best students don't go), or they don't want to leave their friends, or their parents are too nervous, etc. So who goes to England or China isn't really based on academic ability or English or Chinese knowledge--just by who wants to go.

But, for example, a lot of the students who come here are from China and they are chosen to go because they are outstanding students in China. Getting a position is tough. There is a ton of competition, and usually the students have had to work hard to get a chance to go abroad and therefore studied English as well as Japanese very hard, since it's part of the selection process.

So, the Chinese exchange students I've had all had very good English compared to the average Japanese student. But, of course, thanks to the way Chinese students are chosen for the abroad program, this is not an accurate reflection of average English ability in China.

In your case, you seem to imply that the average GPA by country is different (since you mention that China's is quite high). That could be one way that the students coming to you are biased.

Or there are a million other ways that I couldn't speculate on, and you could only know about in limited way if at all. For example, perhaps the students from Japan are encouraged to study abroad by their teachers because they are outstanding in the subject they want to study, not in English. Whereas there could be more of a tendency in China or Korea for teachers to encourage students to study there because their English ability is so good.

Incidentally, I'm not saying that the Japanese are as good at English as the Koreans or the Chinese. I'm saying that it's not clear that the Japanese are measurably worse at English than the Chinese or the Koreans. In fact, if I was forced to speculate I would guess that probably Korea and China are doing better at English education. But I'd prefer not to speculate if I don't have to. Because I'm not sure.

At any rate, it's certainly not true that Japan has the worst English in the world, which is what the quote actually says.

@Tzadeck

Good points. Obviously self-selection is a massive problem here. I also should have added that I was talking about graduate student applicants (MSc) who all come with fairly similar career aspirations ... work in a bank or the public sector or some international organization as economist/analyst/policy specialist etc.

Also Japan's low TOEIC scores may be because only test-takers in Japan are considered, not those who go abroad.

From their 2005 analysis (http://www.ea.toeic.eu/fileadmin/free_re..._TTRep.pdf)

"Canada’s test takers were primarily Japanese (41 percent) and Korean (17 percent), as were those tested in Australia (63 percent Japanese, 27 percent Korean), and in the United States (71 percent Japanese, 15 percent Korean). Eighty-three percent of test takers from Singapore were Japanese, while 6 percent were Chinese. Sixty-eight percent of test takers from the United Kingdom were Japanese."

TOIEC scores in those countries by non-residents:
UK 690
US 680
Canada 652
Singapore 640

all of which are respectable scores.

ETS (TOEFL) writes this: "The TOEFL test provides accurate scores at the individual level; it is not appropriate for comparing countries. The differences in the number of students taking the test in each country, how early English is introduced into the curriculum, how many hours per week are devoted to learning English, and the fact
that those taking the test are not representative of all English speakers in each country or any defined population make ranking by test score meaningless."

Obviously it could still be that Japanese speak worse English on average than those from other countries in Asia... and frankly I think that is the case, especially considering how rich a country it is, how good its education system, etc.

I meet a fair number of Japanese bureaucrats (embassy staff etc) through my work, and frankly even their English is pretty poor compared to their Chinese, Korean or Vietnamese counterparts. Same for international conferences in economics.

Very important, though, is that the Japanese are extremely self-conscious about this, while the Chinese seem to think that it's just a fact that everyone has to speak English today (... although in the grand scheme of things only a temporary aberration until China assumes its rightful place again actually only half-joking here, that seems to be the attitude below the surface).

Irixmark Wrote:TOIEC scores in those countries by non-residents:
UK 690
US 680
Canada 652
Singapore 640

Average TOIEC scores always make me proud of my Japanese ex-girlfriend (despite the fact that she's mad at me right now, haha). She's 20 and got a 935 on the TOEIC despite not going to high school or college. Smart girl, who sadly has not had an easy life or good opportunities.

a couple of points:

According to wikipedia, english education starts in 3rd grade of elementary school in Korea. Until very recently (they started piloting english programs in elementary schools in Hirosima a couple of years ago), in Japan it starts in junior high school.

Korea is still a poorer country than Japan (reflected in prices), so there is likely a higher motivation to learn english for upward mobility.

Korea is a smaller country, so there is less of a domestic market for things like entertainment.

I don't see how anyone could possibly speak english fluently just using what they learn in the Japanese junior and high schools. The vocabulary is way too low. I believe they are exposed to less than 1000 words over the 3 years of junior high school. Even if they truly do learn all those words, it is still totally insufficient. I don't know about high schools, but even if high school raised that to say 5000 (which I find unlikely) expecting fluency or high comprehension is totally naive.

And looking back, there was a notable lack of japanese students at my University in Sydney (where probably a quarter or more of the students were asian).

nadiatims Wrote:a couple of points:

According to wikipedia, english education starts in 3rd grade of elementary school in Korea. Until very recently (they started piloting english programs in elementary schools in Hirosima a couple of years ago), in Japan it starts in junior high school.

Korea is still a poorer country than Japan (reflected in prices), so there is likely a higher motivation to learn english for upward mobility.

Korea is a smaller country, so there is less of a domestic market for things like entertainment.

I don't see how anyone could possibly speak english fluently just using what they learn in the Japanese junior and high schools. The vocabulary is way too low. I believe they are exposed to less than 1000 words over the 3 years of junior high school. Even if they truly do learn all those words, it is still totally insufficient. I don't know about high schools, but even if high school raised that to say 5000 (which I find unlikely) expecting fluency or high comprehension is totally naive.

And looking back, there was a notable lack of japanese students at my University in Sydney (where probably a quarter or more of the students were asian).

The Japanese university exchange students (20 or early 20's) I meet -- I participate in a language group -- generally tell me they've been studying English for about 10 years. Despite their sometimes laborious pronunciation and fluency, I'm consistently amazed by the size of the vocabulary (perhaps because of loan words in Japanese); they sometimes lack the simplest words, but they know a huge amount of complex or technical words.

Interesting article in the Mainichi about the MoE's new English Language education system for Japanese high school students. It will emphasize communication (read: more speaking), and classes will be taught mostly in English, it seems. Also, the total number of vocab words for the three years of HS is going up from 1,300 to 1,800 or so.

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/2012...9000c.html

To me, the interesting bit is here:

Quote:As Japanese instruction on English classes will be phased out in the future, publishers have replaced titles, footnotes and written exercises hitherto mostly in Japanese with English equivalents in some of the textbooks for the four new concentrations. Many of the textbooks have also increased the amount of reading aloud exercises.

"We compiled the textbooks based on the belief that it is necessary to increase students' opportunities to speak English in class, instead of simply listening to their instructors," one textbook publisher said.

Another publisher, however, commented that while it is necessary to improve students' English language skills, it is not necessary to change the entire textbook system. "The goal is not to teach classes in English, but to improve students' abilities to use the English language. So there is no need to change the format of our textbooks."

I wonder how many people involved in English Education in Japan agree with the first publisher, and how many agree with the second one?

Also, no mention of the elimination of the use of katakana in English language textbooks. Here's hoping it's part of the long-term plan.

They're both missing the point.

"We compiled the textbooks based on the belief that it is necessary to increase students' opportunities to speak English in class, instead of simply listening to their instructors," one textbook publisher said.

Increasing the students opportunity to speak in class doesn't address the fundamental problem. The amount of knowledge taught over the 6 years of schooling is totally insufficient.

"The goal is not to teach classes in English, but to improve students' abilities to use the English language. So there is no need to change the format of our textbooks."

This guy is right, but is wrong in his conclusion that the textbooks needn't be changed. They are totally lacking in content.

Under the new system, over 6 years japanese students will in theory learn 3000 words (I say in theory, because really it means they will be exposed to 3000 words). And now they've introduced english in elementary schools, they'll get 1 hour a week for 2 years (adding up to 70 hours in total), based on a vocabulary of 500 words (Most of which I suspect overlap with the 3000 they learn later). In reality the elementary school homeroom teachers who teach all subjects mostly can't speak english.

When are the people in charge of the curriculum going to actually think about the logistics of language learning?

nadiatims Wrote:The amount of knowledge taught over the 6 years of schooling is totally insufficient.

I disagree. You can communicate just fine with a sound knowledge of even junior high graduate level English. The problem isn't lack of content, it's a lack of repetition and focus on communicative activites.

nadiatims Wrote:In reality the elementary school homeroom teachers who teach all subjects mostly can't speak english.

Fluency is not required to teach the Japanese elementary school English curriculum. Not by a long shot.

Seriously, the 8 years of experience with English that HR teachers have is more than enough to teach Yumi-chan to say "I like strawberries".

kitakitsune Wrote:Fluency is not required to teach the Japanese elementary school English curriculum. Not by a long shot.

Seriously, the 8 years of experience with English that HR teachers have is more than enough to teach Yumi-chan to say "I like strawberries".

fair enough. But teaching Yumi-chan how to say "I like strawberries" in a japanese accent along with the names of different animals, vehicles and foods (the 500 words are mostly just nouns) while a nice gesture and a step in the right direction, won't really amount to much if the end goal is crude knowledge of 3000 words, memorizing some grammar rules and being able to recite a few scripted dialogues.

Communication involves 2 parties, you can't really achieve much in the way of useful communication if you require the other person to limit themselves to the 3000 word vocabulary you learned in high school, cut out all idioms, speak in textbook grammar etc.

slivir Wrote:The problem isn't lack of content, it's a lack of repetition and focus on communicative activites.

oh there's plenty of repetition... The problem of "focus on communicative activities" is that it frequently means forgetting about the most important part of communication, actually understanding what the other party is saying. If the focus is on comprehension, the ability to communicate will follow.

[Zgarbas]

Erm...
It's not like English will magically teach itself. Even with proper teachers, without self-study, exposure and a gazillion other things you won't get far. And even with teachers who barely speak the language, the other factors balance it out. In primary we had this teacher who could barely tie a few sentences in, but that didn't stop a quarter of the class from getting to a good level. It did serve as a good excuse for the ones who didn't learn anything though... 8 years of German classes with more-or-less capable teachers and my class's level was around A2 at most, and that's kinda the norm for language classes.

(and even with some of the best teachers in the country and about 11 hours of intensive English per week, there were still a handful of students in my highschool who stuck to minimum conversational level. Have no idea how they passed the school's admission test in the first place...)

I think a big factor is that you need so much exposure that it's tremendously hard to make progress based just on class time (unless you have a total immersion environment where your math and social studies and so on classes are also in your second language.) I'm not sure how long classes are in Japanese schools, but where I went to high school, I had about 3 hours a week of Japanese class. (45 minutes a day, 5 days a week). That's nothing. Once you subtract out attendance-taking and homework-collecting, it's almost less than nothing.

Even if you assume that each and every one of those minutes is spent learning the language in a productive way, a student who reads for 30 minutes a day at home is getting almost twice as much language exposure as one who doesn't.

Once I earned the hatred of my entire high school Japanese class for breaking the curve on the midterm. I got a 97 and everyone else mostly got in the low 70s. I wasn't even studying. I was just spending some time outside class watching anime and reading manga and listening to J-pop.