The 3000 words nadiatims mentions are more than adequate to allow a person to be comfortable in conversation. Not quite enough to function well in a work environment, but quite enough to allow one to move to a country and live there. If the level they reach is not adequate, it's not because they lack the vocabulary, but because they can't use it. Besides, it'd be difficult to teach more words than that: it's more than 5 words an hour. That's fine for passive acquisition, but not for active use.

While I'm no specialist on ESL education in Japan, I do know that the purpose of high school English classes is not to make people fluent, but to allow them to pass entrance tests. And for that, it's adequate. But as far as actual proficiency is concerned, it's crap. And it has nothing to do with vocabulary size.

You know it's funny how we're even having this discussion if you think about it... Imagine if this we're like Chinese people talking on some Chinese forum about how Australians had better Chinese than the Americans and that the Americans really need to change the way Chinese is taught in their schools... (just imagining a parallel world here). Flip it on it's head and you can really see... English must be such a burden on a lot of people around the world.

It's like English speakers get a free ride while everyone else HAS to be bilingual... and we all know how much hard work learning another language is. Kinda interesting...

I personally don't care if the japanese learn English or not. I think it ought to be an optional subject at schools. But Japan is spending a lot of money on english education, and within Japan the subject of how to improve english education is something a lot of people are thinking very seriously about. Look in any japanese bookstore, and you'll see that a lot of people obviously want to learn english.

I can never quite understand how anybody could have any problems with learning English. I mean I don't know a sliver of English grammar, nor have I ever needed to memorize word lists to advance. In Northern-Europe English is so all-pervasive in every aspect of your life, especially in higher education, that everybody tends to pick up on it to a certain degree. I think it's just that in Asian countries (just like Southern-Europe) everything foreign is dubbed or translated and not subtitled like here. If they had a similar policy they would be just as good at English as Northern-Europeans. Hell I could hold basic conversations in correct English when I was 8 just from watching American cartoons a lot.

[Zgarbas]

You also have a language which is similar* to English, which might have helped =p.

*or so I hear. I'll never, ever, get Dutch.

Kuma01 Wrote:I can never quite understand how anybody could have any problems with learning English. I mean I don't know a sliver of English grammar, nor have I ever needed to memorize word lists to advance. In Northern-Europe English is so all-pervasive in every aspect of your life, especially in higher education, that everybody tends to pick up on it to a certain degree. I think it's just that in Asian countries (just like Southern-Europe) everything foreign is dubbed or translated and not subtitled like here. If they had a similar policy they would be just as good at English as Northern-Europeans. Hell I could hold basic conversations in correct English when I was 8 just from watching American cartoons a lot.

I'll assume you are from the Netherlands, as your profile states, and Dutch is your mother tongue.

Consider the following:
-English is a cognate language.
-England is a neighbouring country.
-You likely live in an urban setting.
-English and Dutch culture have striking similarities and are easily compatible.
-Europeans travel and move a lot, meaning there is a sizable English-speaking population in most European urban centres.

I grew up in a French-speaking city in Québec. You'd think English is easy to access everywhere in Canada, but when I was 8, to relate to your example, not a single person my age knew any English around me. In high school, few kids could hold an English conversation comfortably, past the usual platitudes. And this is Canada.

The Netherlands and Scandinavian countries are an exception for all of the reasons mentioned above. Obviously, with the Internet and increased mobility, more and more people are easily exposed to English, but this isn't necessarily the case in all parts of the world, particularly in non-urban settings.

In most large American (and Canadian) urban centres, there are close-knit cultural groups where most of the membres struggle to speak English. Finding proficient English speakers in some parts of any major Chinatown can be a challenge, for instance.

Let's not forget either that it's very common for Westerners to spend years in Asian countries without ever learning the language. We can't be surprised if the opposite happens as well.

kitakitsune Wrote:Seriously, the 8 years of experience with English that HR teachers have is more than enough to teach Yumi-chan to say "I like strawberries".

More like "Ai raiku sutoroberii", wouldn't you say?

Quote:Fluency is not required to teach the Japanese elementary school English curriculum. Not by a long shot.

Yes, but that's exactly the problem. If they're going to present the children with such a contentless and fluffy English curriculum that someone who knows almost no English at all could teach it, why even bother? If they want to take advantage of teaching kids English at a young age, they should be teaching the kids English in English, not with long streams of Japanese interspersed with the occasional English word or phrase.

mezbup Wrote:You know it's funny how we're even having this discussion if you think about it... Imagine if this we're like Chinese people talking on some Chinese forum about how Australians had better Chinese than the Americans and that the Americans really need to change the way Chinese is taught in their schools... (just imagining a parallel world here). Flip it on it's head and you can really see... English must be such a burden on a lot of people around the world.

It's like English speakers get a free ride while everyone else HAS to be bilingual... and we all know how much hard work learning another language is. Kinda interesting...

That's an interesting parallel-way of looking at it.... as if the world turns right-side up :lol:

My two yen thoughts...

Only in Japan... TOEIC is considered the benchmark English "skills test", when they apply for entrance exams or to work in certain companies. And when was TOEIC introduced? After WW2 and introduced by America. (The way I look at it, JLTP is just another Japanese language test created in reciprocal after WW2, to target at mainly the western people who wishes to study and enter the Japanese schools/universities/job markets.)

Before that... most of the Japanese born before WW2 that I have had the good fortune to encounter, if they are learning another foreign language in school or work, it's either some European language, Russian, Korean, Chinese, Arabic, and English is comparatively on the low-end of the scale.

There are lots of reason and many factors that developed into the current "Engrish" culture or mentality in Japan. Statistics can be questionable and it depends on how the media or business-people like to paint a certain picture to their own advantage or whim-and-fancy.

Where close-knit cultural groups are formed in society (or countries), they usually don't feel or find it a real necessity to learn another language, unless there is a motivating factor or being forced to learn it.

Education system is still being "debated" at the ground-level among academic-like-minded people, but commoners simply leave it to the Ministry of Education or higher authority to decide for them. Those who can afford it and cannot put up with the "Engrish" education system in Japan are likely to send their off-springs abroad.

And there was a trend to get hitch with western counterpart, with lovely hopes of a new life or environment and rosy dreams of raising bilingual, cute-looking "half-kids" in Japan.

Whether one learns another foreign language and able to communicate properly.... it really depend on that person effort, learning ability and willingness to go beyond their comfort zone, to become good or better at it.

Sorry, but what exactly is the point here?

AlexandreC Wrote:Consider the following:
-English is a cognate language.
-England is a neighbouring country.
-You likely live in an urban setting.
-English and Dutch culture have striking similarities and are easily compatible.
-Europeans travel and move a lot, meaning there is a sizable English-speaking population in most European urban centres.

I grew up in a French-speaking city in Québec. You'd think English is easy to access everywhere in Canada, but when I was 8, to relate to your example, not a single person my age knew any English around me. In high school, few kids could hold an English conversation comfortably, past the usual platitudes.

The vast majority of Dutch (and Scandinavian and German and by now even French and Italian) people actually want to learn English. They don't seem to feel forced to do so. Perhaps many Japanese, especially students, also feel that learning English is imposed on them. And that many Quebecois resent having to learn and speak English is quite obvious to anyone who has ever set foot into the province.

AlexandreC Wrote:Let's not forget either that it's very common for Westerners to spend years in Asian countries without ever learning the language. We can't be surprised if the opposite happens as well.

The only reason why Westerners can do so is because enough people in Asian countries speak English.

Haha, the problem with English language education in Japan is NOT lack of vocabulary. All the students do is study grammar and memorize vocabulary.

Also, it doesn't matter at all what the official course of study says. The course of study in Kyoto makes claims about flowery 'communicative English' in which the students will be able to express their feelings and have real conversations. Guess what? English langauge education in Kyoto is nothing like that.

English language education is about passing entrance exams. Here's a fun experiment: look at any book meant to prepare people for the English section of the entrance exam of a fairly good college. A book that has practice or past exams. I don't mean anything special like Kyoto or Tokyo University, rather Kobe or Osaka University, something like that. The entrance exams use inappropriately difficult vocabulary, way more than the course of study has students officially learning. That's a fact.

The teachers know that what college you go to in Japan is directly related to your employment opportunities (much more than in America, where your ability in a field matters). And in order to do well on entrance exampls students need to know a lot of grammar, memorize a ton of vocabulary, and concentrate on being able to read very difficult English passages. So that's exactly what the teachers do with the students. That's exactly what the students do in their cram schools throughout junior and senior high school. Study grammar. Memorize ridiculous amounts of vocabulary. Read difficult English passages. That's English language education in Japan. It perfectly reflects their weaknesses and strengths in English.

I have been teaching in high school for three years. (^_^)v

what is lacking? when it comes down to it, what it really takes to become good at a language are friends. People who help you out. here I'm going to have to stretch the definition of friends because for some reason I think of james heisig as a friend. And without his help where would we be? One of the most exciting things for me is to learn parts of the language really quickly and then show off to my friends right here on the forum.

soooooooooo flash back to a japanese (or american) highschool. So you have this thing called English class. The teacher gives a lecture, you get an assignment, you go home, you complete it, you turn it in. You have classmates who do the same thing. and this goes on for an entire year. at the end of that year you have all made some progress in the language but then you stop there. you don't keep studying on your own.

so what key element is missing, what keeps us from doing things on our own?
The only way we can do things on our own, is if we know we are not alone.
If you think that your friend (whoever that may be) cares about you and your progress in your language. you'll go the extra mile. The flaw with the system is then that it is a system where the method is the focus, not the motivation. A school that taught you only how to be motivated to learn something would give you something much greater than a school that only taught you something.

in fact the ideal school would teach
-good studying technqiuqes
-how to be interested in something
-how to encourage your friends
-how to use your knowledge to help others

These are some of the main issues of why I'm homeschooled, I don't feel like I'm just being loaded with all my neccesary tools to survive and being thrown off into the world when I hit 18. I know I'll go on to learn just as I have been. Picking up skills that pique my interesting. finding new ways to improve my study effectiveness. And looking for ways to give people something. something they can take and use to become better people.

p.s sorry for the rant. I don't know where this came from. I guess you could call it a -not so brilliant rant from a american friend-

Irixmark Wrote:The vast majority of Dutch (and Scandinavian and German and by now even French and Italian) people actually want to learn English.

I think a lot of Japanese kids want to learn English too, at least at first. But when the dry as rocks, ineffective teaching style most JTEs use hits them, the vast majority lose any excitement they had about English within a few months.

[Zgarbas]

dry as rocks ineffective teaching is pretty much everywhere, in any subject, but that doesn't stop half the planet from learning things anyway.

And your point would be...?

[Zgarbas]

Just because it's easier to blame it on the system doesn't mean you should, I guess. I can't name many subjects in primary/gymnazium which weren't dry as rocks and ineffective, yet somehow we just got over it and (shock) some pursued their interest in certain subjects and excelled at them either way.

And it's not like the Japanese school system is only dry and ineffective when it comes to English*, but that doesn't stop the Japanese from excelling at any other subject now does it.

*I can only assume since I haven't studied in Japan, but I doubt their other classes were fun and games. Yet that doesn't stop them.

Zgarbas Wrote:Just because it's easier to blame it on the system doesn't mean you should, I guess.

What would you suggest is the main barrier, then?

Foreign language is a subject area where incompetent teaching is particularly detrimental. To a pretty large degree, you can teach math, science, or reading in an uninspiring manner and the students will still plod through it and fit the facts and formulas into their heads. As long as they do the exercises in their books, they will learn.

The same is not true for language classes. Imagine a cooking class where the teacher stands in front of the room and spends 95% of the time telling the class (without demonstrating) how to cook some recipe, and occasionally the class practices cracking a few eggs or buttering a piece of toast. The final exam consists of filling in some blanks in a recipe for Caesar salad.

Can you imagine a cooking class ever being taught that backwards? Do you think anyone would learn how to cook from that class? Because that's the current state of English education in Japan.

It's easier to make the system better than to build a motivation ray to zap at every student to make them passionate about learning.

I mean, you can say that everyone should just get over it, but you can't make them just get over it. So either you accept that the vast majority of people are going to learn nothing -- which is what the US does with high school foreign language classes, and which is only acceptable because most Americans don't have a need to communicate in any language but English -- or you change the system to one that is more motivating and effective for everybody.

Tzadeck Wrote:Haha, the problem with English language education in Japan is NOT lack of vocabulary. All the students do is study grammar and memorize vocabulary.

Well I don't know about high schools, because I only ever worked at junior high schools. But at Junior high schools, most kids aren't learning significant amounts of english out side of school. The JHS curriculum draws from a 1000ish word vocabulary.

After the recent changes, the official HS curriculum raises this to about 3000. And it must be emphasized that this is a passive vocabulary. It's not liked each of these words are mastered to the nth degree, many of them may just appear a couple of times in a reading passage.

I find it funny that Japanese schools are heavily criticized for teaching for the 入試, when according to my research, to be able to easily handle the reading comprehension section of a typical 入試, probably requires a passive vocabulary upward of 6,000 words as a very bare minimum. The opinion among Japanese people online seems to be that for the 入試 you need a big vocabulary (some people stating up to 15,000). In order to understand authentic english across a range of topics (in other words for it to have much practical value) requires a big passive vocabulary. Anyone with a decent level of comprehension should be able to handle basic communication when the time calls for it.

So you can't exactly blame the HS teachers for ignoring the official curriculum and focusing on the 入試.

The reason the mass vocab cramming, which I suspect begins in highschool doesn't lead to high communicative ability, is that student's aren't learning that vocabulary through reading it in various different contexts, and they certainly aren't getting used to hearing those words. Exposure to 生英語 whether as sound or text is massively insufficient.

[Zgarbas]

Fillanzea Wrote:It's easier to make the system better than to build a motivation ray to zap at every student to make them passionate about learning.

I mean, you can say that everyone should just get over it, but you can't make them just get over it. So either you accept that the vast majority of people are going to learn nothing -- which is what the US does with high school foreign language classes, and which is only acceptable because most Americans don't have a need to communicate in any language but English -- or you change the system to one that is more motivating and effective for everybody.

In any school setting language learning in class is extremely limited, and yet you are expected to know it. English is an exception to this as pretty much any European kid is exposed to it since they're old enough to watch TV, but let's take L3(which is mandatory in Europe. As in, there's a high chance that if you're not at least B1 level in an L3 you will be denied well-paying jobs and you'll find yourself unable to pursue certain careers). So L3 is important to me just as L2 is important to a Japanese person. I won't die of starvation without it, but it would be a great asset. (well, to me it's kinda mandatory since translation degrees are only awarded to people fluent in both l2 and l3, but let's make a hypothetical me as well).

5th grade is first class of L3. One class per week up to 8th grade. Then, depending on your choice of major in highschool, you get 1-3 classes per week. Curriculum is up to the teacher, but you won't see much outside basic textbooks, and as always with teachers there's a good chance that they won't be above an intermediate level - hell, make that a beginner level in low-rank schools.

And you know what? Despite that, the l3 olympics are PACKED. Not just from bilingual schools or maternal language schools, but for every level (olympics are separated depending on the number of hours you do at school, so there's a separate branch for the 1-hour-per-week,the 3-hour-per-week and the bilinguals). Even the 1-hour-per-weeks have a high level, and there are thousands of kids from across the country who do a good job at it. Not because their school did anything special, but because they liked it and studied it outside class. An average kid who only follows what is done in class will be barely A2 -if not still A1 - after 8 years. Even the lowest level olympic kids will be B2-C2 in 12th grade. So yeah, they could just sit back and blame the teachers... but they just choose to study it*.

*note that I am not one of these kids.


and it's not just languages, there is only so much Math/Chemistry/Physics you do at an average school. You can just memorize what you need to pass your exams but that's nothing compared to what level you need to pursue higher education with them as a major. Pretty much every single subject needs self-study and personal interest if you want to stick with it beyond high school. Do we have a large amount of people who don't know Maths despite 12 years of schooling? Yes. Do we have people who excel at Math way beyond the level they were taught in school who pursue a career in Mathematics? Yes. And that's despite following the same system, with hard work(and luck) making the difference.

JimmySeal Wrote:Imagine a cooking class where the teacher stands in front of the room and spends 95% of the time telling the class (without demonstrating) how to cook some recipe, and occasionally the class practices cracking a few eggs or buttering a piece of toast. The final exam consists of filling in some blanks in a recipe for Caesar salad.

Lol. Brilliant analogy.

Working as an ALT with JET for two years, I have to say that English education in this country is pretty shat.

I do what I can at the elementary schools (which i love teaching at), and the kids absorb the language pretty well. Heck, 5th and 6th graders, and even some of my 4th graders speak better than my Chuu-3nens.

The problem is with the Juken education system, and some cultural stances the Japanese have on English learning.

To put it simply...

Juken education system = memorize and fill in the blanks (does not work for language cause its not math)

"English-is-cool-but-unlearnable-because-we-are-Japanese" attitude = people seriously believing that because they speak an "isolated" island language like no other (*cough*cough Korean), that is so utterly different and estranged from English that they are at a almost biological disadvantage for absorbing the language.

Ergh, I have been an ALT too long~!