We have two ways of expressing states:

自動詞～て　+　いる　　例：　窓　が　開いて　いる。
他動詞～て　+　ある　　例：　窓　が　開けて　ある。

What is the difference between these 2 forms? When do I use which form?
Also why is the particle が used with the 他動詞 when を　should be used?

Both of them express form. What I know is that:

自動詞～て　+　いる is used to epress a state while not implying that some one(another person/being) has done the action to create the state. It just happens to be in that state.

他動詞～て　+　ある is used to express a state that where we are saying that some one has done the action to create it, it implies some one (another person/being) has done an action to create the state and "has done so for a reason". Is this all I need to know?

Can you give me some real world examples where you would use one and not the other? I mean how do we know if the state was caused by someone and for a reason or not?? Thankyou very much.

matrixofdynamism Wrote:We have two ways of expressing states:

自動詞～て　+　いる　　例：　窓　が　開いて　いる。
他動詞～て　+　ある　　例：　窓　が　開けて　ある。

What is the difference between these 2 forms? When do I use which form?
Also why is the particle が used with the 他動詞 when を　should be used?

が is used because the whole purpose of the てある construction is to shuffle things around so you're making a statement about the thing which would be the object of the sentence if you were using the 他動詞 in its normal form. This might be clearer if we use a verb which doesn't have an intransitive equivalent. So in the normal form:
墓石に名前を書く [(I/you/Some person) writes a name on the gravestone]
we're making a statement about a person (who exactly is usually understood from context; even if there's no が-marked clause explicitly here we're still talking about them). In the てある form we shuffle the を-marked object into the が position:
名前が墓石に書いてある. [The name is written on the gravestone]
The focus is on the thing and the state it's in, not the action and the person doing it.
As you can see from my translation there, English usually uses the passive for this sort of focus-shifting. Japanese doesn't use its passive for the same set of things; partly this is because it's got a set of alternatives (of which てある is one) instead.

Quote:Both of them express form. What I know is that:

自動詞～て　+　いる is used to epress a state while not implying that some one(another person/being) has done the action to create the state. It just happens to be in that state.

他動詞～て　+　ある is used to express a state that where we are saying that some one has done the action to create it, it implies some one (another person/being) has done an action to create the state and "has done so for a reason". Is this all I need to know?

This is basically right, but the "for a reason" (or, less strongly, "deliberately") nuance only really applies where there is a transitive-intransitive pair (like 開ける/開く). In this case you get a choice: you can use the simple intransitive verb with ている: 窓が開いている which just says "the window is open". Or you can use the transitive verb with てある: 窓が開けてある, which adds the implication that somebody has deliberately opened the window.

For a verb like 書く there is no intransitive equivalent, and so there isn't a choice to make; so てある doesn't carry that "deliberately" nuance: it just means it's a completed action that's been done by somebody: "it is written".

Quote:Can you give me some real world examples where you would use one and not the other? I mean how do we know if the state was caused by someone and for a reason or not??

This seems a bit backwards. Typically you start out knowing what you're trying to talk about, and then you say something that expresses that. If you don't know and don't care if the window was opened by somebody for a reason, then you go ahead and just use 窓が開いている. If it's in the back of your mind that somebody must have opened the window deliberately (ie it wouldn't get that way by itself) then you might use 窓が開けてある. The parallel isn't exact, but you might think about the difference between "the window's open" and "the window's been left open" -- the latter is certainly implying that the state of the window was caused by somebody...

うわー。pm215さんの説明は凄いでしね。　完璧。
ところで、最後には 動詞の受身形　対 他動詞～て+ある　の　違い　が　私を　一寸　混乱　させる。　

I hope I am not asking for too much, you have written a very clear explaination here. Could you just remove this one more obstacle of showing the distinction between 他動詞～て+ある and the passive form of the same 他動詞?　What I understand is that the passive does not and cannot express a state, therefore the comparison is not fair. But the point that is confusing is that I have come across others saying that 他動詞～て+ある is like the Passive form. Ok, but than what about the passive form we make by adding ～られる e.t.c?

Thus the distinction is supposed to be: Passive form expresses action happening from the perspective of the reciever of the action therefore, "The window is being open" 窓が開けられている, "The window will >be opened<"　窓が開けられる, "The window was being opened"　窓が開けられた。　While the 他動詞～て+ある expresses state.

Is it possilbe also to use the ある in past tense?

You can use てある in past tense but it's not very common -- it would only occur if you're doing something like telling a story in the past.

As for passive vs. te aru, Japanese passives are rarely used with inanimate objects except sometimes in more formal writing. Your examples above with the window are not very natural.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Japanese passives are rarely used with inanimate objects except sometimes in more formal writing

REALLY??? How come I have not come across that yet. But wait, most things that we talk about are not infact animate. Hmmm, since we talk about action from the perspective of the reciever of the action, that is why it makes sense to have animate objects instead is it? I see.

But I still do not know the answer to what I wrote in the previous post which is
動詞の受身形　対 他動詞～て+ある　の　違い　

I did answer that -- you use てある in cases where you don't use the passive.

For instance,
弁当はもう頼んである。 (The bento have already been ordered.) 弁当はもう頼まれた sounds strange even though it theoretically means the same thing.

教科書にはそう書いてある。 (That's what it says in the textbook.) Once again, そう書かれている sounds odd.

Japanese has several ways to express what we use the passive for in English -- the passive is used much, much more frequently in English than in Japanese. This is partly because Japanese can focus using word order or は が and doesn't need the passive to accomplish that.

I see, so where we wish to the passive form, if it is animate thing we shall use the Passive ～られる but if it is inanimate thing that we use the ～てある construction? Hmmm.

I guess this ends the discussion. One confusion down.