Not very many girls find their uniforms ださい. You'll notice they wear them as much as possible, even on weekends (yes they may have 部活, but they have every opportunity to change before heading downtown for fun). You'll see many boys wearing normal clothes that they took the effort to change in to out on dates with girls wearing their seifuku.

That said, some schools DO have ugly uniforms and how cute the uniform is is a major decision point when many girls choose a school.

As for elementary, only private schools have uniforms. Public just have a standard hat normally and maybe rules on the colour of the ランドセル.

School (girl) uniform obsession in Japan is to a point where imo it's not even about innocence (otherwise they'd be idealizing the girls who don't shorten their skirts), it's just cute clothing.

Lucky for me my gf still has her HS uniform. Her cheerleading one is gone though

Thora Wrote:I definitely haven't seen all the AKB shows and videos, and I didn't come across ones in which the girls act their age and show their intelligence. But even they represent x% of the material, it wouldn't compensate for all the other fake kawaii stuff. Not blaming the girls here. It is what it is.

What does it mean to act their age? Do you mean act their age by Western standards?
Do they have to show intelligence all the time?
What do you want them to do? This is effectively their job. A lot of it isn't really fake either.
I suppose if you want "intelligent" talk you can look at Shinoda Mariko's NHK show where she talks about serious business and international issues for about 5 minutes.

Quote:But I don't think AKB is really about high quality music or dance. It's more about the girls, right? And AKB wouldn't be the first entertaining pop group which isn't enormously talented. =] I apologize if I've offended you as a fan of AKB's music.

It's definitely about the girls, but that's what entertainment is moving more and more towards. I went with my friend to an MMA event and he was explaining some of it to me. "It's not even about the fighting and the technique anymore, but more about the rivalries and the fighters themselves." It was then that I realized it.
Not to say that they're all untalented; they're trying to do a ton of stuff and some are better in certain things than others. There's also a certain attraction to a more raw behavior. Actually, when I think about it, AKB frequently releases pictures of themselves without makeup on, so there's definitely more of an honesty with them as opposed to other Japanese celebrities.

Thora Wrote:By "10-year olds", I was trying to convey the childish behaviour and cutesy themes, costumes, props, mannerisms, sets, colours, etc. I appreciate that not every stage theme is bubblegum pink and they play different characters in comedy sketches, etc, but there is a substantial amount of kiddie stuff and feigned naivete. It's pretty ridiculous.

I really don't know what this feigned naivete is, but yea there is a bunch of kiddie stuff. And yeah, it does weird me out. And yeah, I would be more weirded out when older people are into it.
But it's not all like that, and my position as a fan is to only accept the stuff I'm into. I really don't like the older fanbase. I'm not even sure if I like the Japanese fanbase.

vix86 Wrote:I'm going to do a minor derail here and inquire about something since it seems opportune.

"Schoolgirl fantasy" has been brought up a few times now and leads me to an interesting question since the "school uniform" often becomes a kind of symbol for the mark of youth, innocence, and the oh-so-hint of taboo among many men.

Since I know there are a number of UK-ians here and there's a fairly high proportion of private schools (and public?) that require uniforms in the UK vs what the US has. Does a similar sort of thing run in the UK culture among men? Does the school uniform take on a meaning of youth?

yes, that goes on here too, but not to the extent that it does in Japan. But it's a similar mix of girly niceness along with sex... perhaps a little more dirty image than Japan prefers things.

Probably the most famous example is Britney Spears

(16 here), but Hermione from Harry Potter got a good deal of attention too, and she doesn't have a dirty image at all.

@Jarvik: it's not about innocence, otherwise they would be idolising girls who don't shorten their skirts? It's just cute clothing? Realllllly?

Kainzero - haha! I google the Shinoda Mariko show you mentioned and this was first photo I saw.

http://www.hello-online.org/res/torrenti...0027_0.jpg

Maybe some of you will be interested in David Marx's take on Heavy Rotation:

David H. Marx Wrote:I had the opportunity a few weeks ago to hear an actual live band play AKB48′s mega-hit “Heavy Rotation,” and stripped of the key video visuals of its diminutive singers in Frederick’s of Hollywood lingerie kissing each other (which I am led to believe by the commenters here that this is what Japanese girls get up to all the time), I had a chance to listen to the song as a song. Certainly one barrier to liking AKB48 is the otaku-pleasing aesthetics, which by their nature, should surely churn the stomach of someone in my snobby taste culture. (Arama They Didn’t readers, this is a good time to note that we exist in parallel “taste cultures” and you shouldn’t be offended that I don’t like the music of your world, as you most certainly would not like most of the stuff habitating my iPod. You would think that Faust is “weird,” and you’d be half-correct, but I wouldn’t get all “butthurt” and spam your comment filter if you weren’t into that Rustie album.)

Anyway, stripped of the AKB48 aesthetics that make AKB48 AKB48, “Heavy Rotation” mostly just sounds like a set of textbook J-Pop musical conventions stacked up against each other. The semi-anonymous songwriter Yamazaki Yo (山崎燿) apparently spends his non-AKB48 time working on anime themes and such, and I guess for the Akihabara millieu, total stability in melodic and production convention are key. The audience demands as such.

http://neojaponisme.com/2011/12/22/2011-popular-music/

Here's more on AKB. I don't think this will please the fans too much:

David H. Marx Wrote:Currently, however, the most conspicuous Japanese culture of otaku and yankii represents value sets with little connection to affluent consumers elsewhere. Most men around the world are not wracked by such deep status insecurity that they want to live in a world where chesty two-dimensional 12 year-old girls grovel at their feet and call them big brother. (...)

Japanese companies now face a true crisis: Appealing to the most powerful consumers in Japan will lead them away from tastes and values that can be easily exported overseas. AKB48 may be opening vanity branches in Taiwan and Jakarta, but will the world inherently be interested in an idol group meant to please a small group of men’s reactionary attitudes towards women and desire for songs that ignore the last twenty years of musical change?

http://neojaponisme.com/2011/12/02/the-g...part-five/

kainzero Wrote:i really think japanese society needs to solve gender equality in the workplace and in social situations first before they can turn their attention to akb. there's also the child pornography law, where it's illegal to distribute but not illegal to possess. and any of the junior gravure idol stuff (going from U-15, U-12, U-10) is pretty disgusting and makes akb look like saints in comparison. if you even watch one of those videos you'll need a shower soon after.

wtfffff... just looked this up. SO bad.

Yeah, this stuff really is prevelant in Japanese society, it seems. I'd really hate to know what the real statistics on child abuse are there. Probably they would too...

Thora Wrote:Kainzero - haha! I google the Shinoda Mariko show you mentioned and this was first photo I saw.

http://www.hello-online.org/res/torrenti...0027_0.jpg

except for the giant teddy bear (which is bad but not THAT bad), is there anything wrong with it?
you can replace the girl in the photo with paris hilton and it would look normal (well, according to paris hilton standards) and not necessarily child like.

Eikyu Wrote:Maybe some of you will be interested in David Marx's take on Heavy Rotation:

sounds accurate. every once in a while they try to switch it up, but yeah, the fact that you can do that stupid MIX chanting stuff for every song pretty much proves that they like to rely on that hypnotic, easy going musical stuff.
i think that stuff is okay once in a while. heck it reminds me of this:
http://chzmusic.files.wordpress.com/2012...s-game.jpg

Eikyu Wrote:Here's more on AKB. I don't think this will please the fans too much:

i've read the entire piece and it's pretty interesting. (i don't know why you quoted the chesty 2-dimensional 12 year old girls, they're talking about moe anime, not akb, lol.)
as far as i know, the k-pop industry is heavily tied with government which is pushing them to export. j-pop doesn't have that.
they say AKB tops the charts, but that's more of a result of their sales and marketing tactics and the outdated style of oricon. of their songs, i think only heavy rotation and maybe aitakatta will actually go down in history. only the fans would recognize some of their other singles.
they're definitely trying to export them though. that is why all of them have google+ profiles. all the akb members have official translated pages in English, though it looks like they're just run through google translate. they've started broadcasting concerts live on google+ and youtube.
but imo, if they want to export them, they need to really focus on the reality, their deep connection to the fans, their development and training, their personalities, and their comedy. this is the same kind of stuff that's become popular in the US, with reality shows taking off, especially stuff like Jersey Shore. it's completely possible. i think that's where AKB excels; it's less of a pure pop group and more of a reality show that you participate in.
the music itself is marginal and uninteresting on its own.


i would like them to rein in their fans though.
you can't watch a j-pop video on youtube without seeing akb and k-pop fans fight in the comments section.

Eikyuu -

Thanks for digging up that information earlier about Japan's sexual assault law. It appears Japanese has a rape law whereas some other countries have changed to a broader offence of sexual assault (any assault of a sexual nature.) So I guess Japan must includes "lesser" sexual assaults under some general assault offence. I suppose it's also possible that someone could have been charged with general assault then. (Who knows what the gory details are.) Glad to hear they extended the 6-month statute of limitations. Maybe the next boys will be able to take advantage of that if parents are still sending their kids there!

And thanks for the Marx link - I read his article. At least I know I'm not the only cantankerous music lover. Now there's about 3 people I can invite to my planet to listen to music. :-)

Edit: He mentions yankii culture. What's that?

Yankii are yakuza wannabe bad boys/bad girls if I recall. Example pictures: http://www.intlwota.com/aitakatta/wp-con...00x169.png http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/hanagenuki-je...1f3925.jpg
Thanks for replying to my post, I thought that no one had seen it/cared. Personally, I find it shocking if rape laws don't apply to males. It would be legal to rape a man/boy?? More research would probably be needed to confirm this.

kainzero Wrote:(i don't know why you quoted the chesty 2-dimensional 12 year old girls, they're talking about moe anime, not akb, lol.)"

Well, it's not clear to me what he's referencing exactly. Seems like he's talking about otaku culture in general and AKB is part of that. Though the girls are a bit older from what I understand.

Another thing that Marx said is that AKB is only popular in Japan. I don't know if you could export that model outside of Asia.

I also liked this article on AKB, it's a good introduction to the topic: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...61496.html

It kind of confirms that it was primarily targeted at Otaku men: "From a core fan base of adult men, the group is broadening its appeal to include younger girls."

"Mr. Akimoto says he chose to base the group in Akiba, as it is known for short, in order to tap into growing interest in escapist products like comics, anime films and videogames that have come to represent Japan's pop culture overseas. "

"At the AKB48 show, members perform a revue of simply choreographed routines in front of a roughly 95% male audience."

vix86 Wrote:I think its important to keep in mind that the stuff concerning women dressing up like and acting like 10 yr (Gothic-Lolita fashion?) is a subculture movement and not really something prevalent throughout the culture. [...] There is a kawaii culture in Japan but I don't think its to the level that some people outside of Japan would believe.

I suppose shouldn't use the word 'kawaii' if it has a specific meaning in whatever subculture that is? (full on Lolita costume?) I'll just say 'cute' instead.

Yeah, the real-life kawaii I had in mind is normal women (and actresses I suppose) who intentionally act cute which isn't that uncommon in my experience. They can usually turn it off and on...more likely on when guys or new people are around. lol Marriage and some jobs seem to tone it down. I imagine some performers adopt more exaggerated versions of it.

My homestay sisters and their friends didn't do cute so much (ages 14-22) in the 4 years I lived with them, which is probably why I found it so strange, phony and annoying whenever I encountered it. My new theory is that idol groups have kept it alive for decades and must be stopped. (Maybe IceCream could go in undercover - she looks young.) ;-p


@joshua re judging the music

Yes, taste in music is a personal thing. And it makes no difference whether I like it. :-)
I think it's possible to judge the quality of a performance, though, as long as you're familiar with that type of music. This is pretty straight up formulaic pop. The girls aren't actually dancers, so it's not really fair to judge their dancing. Let's just leave it at that. I really don't care one way or the other.

Thora Wrote:Yeah, the real-life kawaii I had in mind is normal women (and actresses I suppose) who intentionally act cute which isn't that uncommon in my experience. They can usually turn it off and on...more likely on when guys or new people are around. lol Marriage and some jobs seem to tone it down. I imagine some performers adopt more exaggerated versions of it.

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly is supposed to be attractive about that sort of fake cute stuff. Insecure men who want a girl who's "dummer" than them? I mean, i can understand it in the case of substitute daughter stuff but actual attraction? It's so obviously fake most of the time that i struggle to believe people actually fall for it. Gotta be a lot of believing because you want to believe.

Give me a girl with a twinkle of intelligence in her eye and a cheeky grin any day...

Actually... 正義の味方, great drama, older sister is a fantastic example of the "switch" LOL.

Eikyu Wrote:I also liked this article on AKB, it's a good introduction to the topic: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...61496.html

It's one of the better articles written, most western journalists do a 5 minute wiki check, watch heavy rotation on youtube and then starting casting judgemental stones..

Primarily their audience was that, but they have diversified.
The members themselves got really upset at the start because everyone called them just another 'moe' group, when they didn't see themselves as that.
There is a really good documentary kicking around about their beginnings, from when they performed in front of 10 people, and advertised the shows personally. That's why I hate when people say they haven't worked hard to deserve their current success, they didn't explode overnight. In the west if your pop group doesn't hit number 1 immediately, you're fired and the next one is brought in.

On the subject of singing live and choreography, well can you imagine the nightmare it would be getting that many mic's synced? They do occasionally sing live.. can be a bit brutal at times, some of them are decent, some not so much..

I have to say of all the idols (jpop/kpop) performance wise, the only one that ever impresses me is BOA, but then she sings live (in 3 different languages.. sometimes in the same show) and does much more complex dance routines than most other people (even if they are dumbed down from her videos)

As Kainzero said, it's more than just a singing group. It's more a modern media entertainment group, they do comedy/variety, tv dramas, sing, stage shows, lots of fan interaction etc.

vileru Wrote:Again, what justification do we have to look down on innocence and naïveté and dismiss them as improper for entertainment and as a perverted source of sexual desire?

Seriously? I'm not looking down on actual innocence. We're talking about older teenagers being dressed up in little girl bathing suit with pigtails, acting and talking like a little girl, and bouncing around a sea of pastel toys for the titillation of older male fans and to make their bosses money, right? Some of these videos involves no singing or dancing. Some involved airhead little-girl flirtation with an imaginary fan boyfriend in the camera. I suspect the age of the girls vary but some definitely look on the younger end of the 15-20.

The justification for condemning this is harm. It's inappropriate for teenagers. Some would also consider it degrading. If we are dealing with non-minors, we are putting women on par with children instead of equal adult footing.[edit: changed "were" to "are" since some are over 18]

This is not natural innocence or naivete. This is not me imposing my Canadian "feminist interests" (whatever that is) on a Japanese woman who values innocence b/c I am oblivious to the beauty of Asian innocence. lol This is a teenage girl who's been told to act dumb and submissive and young because adults want to pay for what they consider sexy. I believe many would find that objectionable. This is not what we need to be teaching teenage girls about the adult world and their worth as women. You would not want your daughter bouncing around in bikini in front of a webcam flirting with thousands of older men.

No, I don't see this sexualized use of a teenage as appropriate adult entertainment. Not because she may or may not be an innocent. This seems pretty clear to me. Is there some piece of your conception of this that I'm missing or don't understand?

Quote:Numerous other attitudes and emotions are feigned, yet few cry out in moral panic about it (it baffles me that some people can so vehemently object to feigned innocence while, at the same time, being utterly captivated by feigned romance).

I don't "cry out in moral panic". I don't "vehemently object". Not really me. I point out that that this situation pretty twisted. It's twisted in Canada, it's twisted in America and its twisted in Japan. There's no cultural imperialism going on here. This is a developing teenager. It's not okay.

"utterly captivated by feigned romance?" No idea what this meant.

Quote:Nonetheless, I understand that feigned innocence and naïveté may influence how children and women are sexualized as well as how powerful they are perceived. However, such thinking is the very result of the patriarchal tradition and its concepts. Such thinking assumes that men are more powerful than women and children, and therefore cannot be negatively sexualized or made less powerful by feigning an attitude. Consequently, such thinking assumes women and children are weak, and thus require protection because otherwise they will be abused by men.

It's not that abstract for me. Men are more powerful in this particular situation b/c of the facts. You've got parents who've consented for their daughter to work for a guy, she wants to keep her job, be famous. earn money and please her parents, he's an adult and she's a teenager. This is not a situation of equal power. He should not exploit the situation for various reasons. There are already protections in place depending on her age, employment terms, by statute, any union, etc. These would apply to males and females. But there's a grey zone wrt. what exactly he can ask her to do. That grey zone is the issue here. And people will disagree about what constitutes harm. Presumably they worked that out fairly in advance.

To me, this says nothing about sexualization of men, inherent weakness of woman, protection required, or propensity of men to abuse. It's a work situation with some undefined terms.

Quote:By encouraging this kind of thinking, the power imbalance that men have over women and children is further legitimized and increased and the roots of patriarchy only grow thicker. I should emphasize that I'm not arguing that laws and protections should not be put in place. I'm arguing that we draw our objections from the very same patriarchal tradition we are opposing when we criticize attitudes, such as feigned innocence or naïveté, as negatively affecting the status of women and children are how they are sexualized.

If you're trying to say that power should not be a consideration, perhaps you'll explain what you propose instead. I don't agree with the first part, so this part doesn't follow. I understand theories based on power from my univ days have evolved, so I'm interested to hear your ideas. But I guess I just don't see why any theory is needed.

edit in []

Eikyu Wrote:Well, it's not clear to me what he's referencing exactly. Seems like he's talking about otaku culture in general and AKB is part of that. Though the girls are a bit older from what I understand.

In that particular quote, he's referencing 萌え anime, a subculture of anime that is booming within otaku in Japan.
Like I've stated earlier, ヲタ are different from オタク and they often fight a lot online for some reason. They're kinda related but they're kinda not.
In the article he talks about how they've reached the top of the charts and have invaded Japanese culture, and it's hard for them to export it because they would have to change their appeal to more universal ones.
I've argued the following:
-K-Pop and other Korean cultural exports are powered by government so they can't be easily compared
-AKB's chart topping is illusory based on Oricon's outdated sales methods and AKB's handshake tickets
-There are things in AKB that have universal appeal and aren't creepy
-They are, in fact, trying to export themselves

Quote:I also liked this article on AKB, it's a good introduction to the topic: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...61496.html

It kind of confirms that it was primarily targeted at Otaku men: "From a core fan base of adult men, the group is broadening its appeal to include younger girls."

It doesn't really say anything about them being the creepy old men stereotype though. They interviewed a 21 year old, who is a fan of Kasai Tomomi, also a 20 year old.

Quote:"Mr. Akimoto says he chose to base the group in Akiba, as it is known for short, in order to tap into growing interest in escapist products like comics, anime films and videogames that have come to represent Japan's pop culture overseas."

I'm sure that's not the only reason. If we were gonna go to high foot traffic areas in Tokyo where a theater like that can be promoted, what would that leave? Roppongi, Shibuya, Shinjuku, and Ikebukuro? It goes without saying that the subgroups all perform in theatres located in super high foot traffic areas: Downtown Namba, Sakae, and Fukuoka.
For the first AKB theatre show they only had like 3 or 4 people who were unrelated to staff or the members themselves. They built themselves from the ground up. Even the first few years were difficult, as they would see the same people in the theatre, it wouldn't be packed, and they had to go out and perform an encore even when no one was chanting for one.
In order to build themselves up they needed to get out on the streets and advertise themselves. I don't know many neighborhoods where they can do that and draw people from the streets.

Quote:"At the AKB48 show, members perform a revue of simply choreographed routines in front of a roughly 95% male audience."

There's nothing indicative of this being the creepy old men stereotype. Just like I can write how Justin Beiber performs for a roughly 95% female audience. How come you don't think it's 95% old ladies and broken down divorced homemakers?
On top of that, the theater is substantially different now. It's not a high priority anymore and the top members often have other work like modeling, acting, etc. The ones more likely to appear at the theater are those in training. The top members have a lot more fans than the lower ranked members and probably draw in a different crowd as well.
It's not like AKB's not trying to draw in women, they can get in for 1000 yen less:
http://www.akb48.co.jp/theater/ticket.php

Here's some footage from a handshake event. This was before the boom in middle/late 2010, and it takes place in early 2010, when you would expect to see more of the older ヲタ type:

almost caught up... having trouble keeping answers short. ugh

kainzero Wrote:What does it mean to act their age? Do you mean act their age by Western standards? Do they have to show intelligence all the time?
What do you want them to do? This is effectively their job. A lot of it isn't really fake either.

I was just responding to Gingerninja's (like that name) suggestion that I'm not really getting a balanced impression b/c I've only seen a sampling of videos on the net and not many have been TV shows or comedy. Mostly music videos and creepy clips or photo shoots. I think I was seeing the sexualized kiddie stuff, but not the regular acting.

Not suggesting they should act intelligent all the time. Just don't see why they should ever have to act childish or vacuous (not sure how to describe that look). What I've seen looks fake, but I haven't seen the regular stuff I guess.

By "act their age" I meant like my Japanese homestay sisters and their friends when they were that age.

Yeah, the synth and chorus group isn't really my thing, admittedly. My partner's a musician and concert presenter - live music (sometimes with dance and video). I'm really into unique interpretation and emotional playing, so AKB just felt a bit soulless and flat to me. But I get that it's more about the complete package/experience.

Quote:I really don't know what this feigned naivete is,

If you could see me I could show you. It's that fake confused little-girl wide-eyed innocence look. "eh?" C'mon. You know that look. :-) (It's a popular expression in porn. Go figure.)

Quote:but yea there is a bunch of kiddie stuff. And yeah, it does weird me out.

I was fine with that one! :-) It seemed clearly aimed at children, so the baby voices and fuzzy costumes were entirely appropriate. They was nothing sexual about it. (well, unless you're a furrie. haha). It's the baby talk and sex mix that gets creepy.

kainzero Wrote:

Quote:"At the AKB48 show, members perform a revue of simply choreographed routines in front of a roughly 95% male audience."

There's nothing indicative of this being the creepy old men stereotype. Just like I can write how Justin Beiber performs for a roughly 95% female audience. How come you don't think it's 95% old ladies and broken down divorced homemakers?

That can be creepy too... http://whostolethecookiesfromkookie.file....jpg?w=490

The other thing is when you talk about them slowly building up their popularity, that's great, but I doubt that the girls are anything more than salaried employees. They probably just did what they were told. It's not like they built up the franchise.

kainzero Wrote:

Thora Wrote:Kainzero - haha! I google the Shinoda Mariko show you mentioned and this was first photo I saw.
http://www.hello-online.org/res/torrenti...0027_0.jpg

except for the giant teddy bear (which is bad but not THAT bad), is there anything wrong with it? you can replace the girl in the photo with paris hilton and it would look normal (well, according to paris hilton standards) and not necessarily child like.

Nothing wrong with it at all. I just thought you'd find it funny too b/c I was there to see some serious NHK talk show as a contrast to the pink bubble gum kiddie stuff. And it ended up being in a kitchen with bubble gum pink cabinets, a 6 fit teddy bear, other smaller teddies and something furry on her head. (I mean, have you EVER seen a pink kitchen?)

@Eikyu - lol.

Eikyu Wrote:http://neojaponisme.com/2011/12/02/the-g...part-five/

i thought this was a really interesting article, and helped me understand how stuff like this has become the mainstream in Japan, not because it's representative of what was actually popular, but because the ヲタ・オタク etc crowds were the only people actually buying stuff. The fact that subsequently it's become popular is cos it's the only thing that's survived / surviving the depression.

About exporting this kind of thing... well yes, they do have to change a few things. The major difference is that Western people who would class themselves as ヲタ or オタク are generally teens to 20s themselves, and download rather than buy. So they can't appeal to that crowd for money easily, it needs to be a little more mainstream.

However, the following on youtube allows them to export pretty much everything wholesale. You only have to go on a subtitled version of any of their stuff to find people defending them voraciously about anything that they do, even the stuff that's really kinda unquestionably sexual. (EDIT: i don't just mean any sexual stuff, but the sexual stuff that you would think that people from Western culture wouldn't want to try to defend usually.)

If all the clever directors talk fails (like with 制服が邪魔をする) there are always plenty of people claiming cultural relativity, that any dislike of it comes from Christian hate of sex, and how none of us could possibly understand japanese culture if we disagree.

Fairly disturbingly, when i was looking for articles on the Junior Idol thing, i also found threads full of people claiming exactly the same things about the under 12's posing in G-strings or being shot in other undeniably sexual ways. Yup it's kiddie porn heaven... obviously sexualised children and deniability at the same time. Wonderful.

So, it seems that once again, the idea of cultural relativity is like a get-out-of-jail-free card for grim stuff.

Cultural relativity is genuinely probably one of the most harmful concepts when misused...

Anyway, one other thing that ties into Eikyuu's article was a quote from this article http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20070503f1.html :

article Wrote:"Many in the industry feel that the junior idol boom was intended to be an underground trend," she said. "It was never meant to be accepted by the masses like it is now."

The article Eikyuu posted gives an interesting insight into how this has ended up being mainstream, i think. So yeah, AKB do have a part to play in that.

EDIT: @Eikyu: what?? you can't rape a man by japanese law?!?

Thora Wrote:Not suggesting they should act intelligent all the time. Just don't see why they should ever have to act childish or vacuous (not sure how to describe that look). What I've seen looks fake, but I haven't seen the regular stuff I guess.

By "act their age" I meant like my Japanese homestay sisters and their friends when they were that age.

So I looked up just the phrase AKB48 on youtube and I can see what you mean.
I feel like a lot of the videos that show the more realistic side of them... you have to actually look them up by name. 大島優子, 高橋みなみ, etc.

Quote:AKB just felt a bit soulless and flat to me. But I get that it's more about the complete package/experience.

Honestly, if anyone asked me to recommend good Japanese music, I wouldn't list any AKB songs at all. It's like its own little world... you have to subscribe to it completely to really get it. One of my favorite performances is Team B 推し, but it makes no sense if you don't know the members.

there's still talent there, though.

Quote:I was fine with that one! :-) It seemed clearly aimed at children, so the baby voices and fuzzy costumes were entirely appropriate.

that's the problem, it's not aimed at children. even if we discount the older men and talk about teenagers and 20 year olds, it's still weird.

Quote:Nothing wrong with it at all. I just thought you'd find it funny too b/c I was there to see some serious NHK talk show as a contrast to the pink bubble gum kiddie stuff.

hahah. yeah i was like... "oh god how am i gonna defend this"

Eikyu Wrote:The other thing is when you talk about them slowly building up their popularity, that's great, but I doubt that the girls are anything more than salaried employees. They probably just did what they were told. It's not like they built up the franchise.

can you say the same thing about sports players? it's pretty much the same deal. remember that if their job ends, it's practically over for them. it's difficult to get into university and the career ladder in japan seems to be pretty stupid.

IceCream Wrote:If all the clever directors talk fails (like with 制服が邪魔をする)

the official line from akimoto from a CNN interview:

秋元康 Wrote:AKIMOTO: I was often asked how someone like me who is over 50 can write songs for young kids. I remember what it was like when I was a teenager. When I look back, there were sexual things and other things around that interested me. I change them to be not dirty, but more romantic in my lyrics.

AKIMOTO: Unless I take up the issues the girls are facing, as a songwriter, the issues won't get addressed. There are kids out there who want to take off their school uniforms and misbehave, and I am depicting realities in their lives in which they wonder whether it's ok to think that way. I'm not forcing them. I'm picturing their private lives partly based on my imagination or newspaper articles or TV news. I watch what their generation is doing, the issues of bullying, suicides and sugar-daddy traps and turning them to my song themes.

i feel like the song itself is pretty sad and i think it carries those overtones as well. the live performance doesn't strike me as sexual or slutty. it's also not one of their more popular songs and failed to crack their annual concert where fans vote for the top 100 songs and they perform them. this year it wasn't even in the top 200. the only time it appeared was in 2008.　

the single released after 制服が邪魔をする (which was in 2007 btw) was 軽蔑していた愛情, which talked about bullying.

but i do agree with the damage that cultural relativity can cause. i get the "you don't understand japanese culture" line a lot from akb fans who don't even study japanese! i got it especially when i was trying to point out the absurdity of the no-dating rule.

IceCream Wrote:Anyway, one other thing that ties into Eikyuu's article was a quote from this article http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20070503f1.html :?

Interesting article "But she hinted that she has seen some mothers forcing their crying children to put on sexy swimsuits for the camera."

I'm sure the AKB girls had a lot of pressure to appear in the Heavy Rotation video and other similar things.

IceCream Wrote:EDIT: @Eikyu: what?? you can't rape a man by japanese law?!?

I'm not sure, but there was a quote that alluded to that on a website and when you read the law.... http://ja.wikibooks.org/wiki/%E5%88%91%E...7%E6%9D%A1

第177条
暴行又は脅迫を用いて13歳以上の女子を姦淫した者は、強姦の罪とし、3年以上の有期懲役に処する。13歳未満の女子を姦淫した者も、同様とする。

Basically: "He who fornicates with a girl using threats or violence, commits the crime of rape, and will be sentenced to 3 years or more of imprisonment."

Notice the use of the word 女子 (girl) specifically. So a guy wouldn't be included.

Wikipedia confirms this "日本では強姦罪の客体は女性に限定されている。男性の性的自由を侵害しても、強姦罪は適用されない。どんな場合であれ強制わいせつ罪が適用される。これは相手の男性が13歳未満であっても同様である。"

Guys can't be raped, even if under 13.

A man can't be raped by a woman in English law either I'm pretty sure, it's classed as sexual assault, not rape.

about 制服を邪魔をする it's more recently been performed by NMB48 as part of their first stage show, (NMB are generally younger than AKB) so if you want to believe the line about it being about enjou kosai.. then I guess having younger members makes it more poignant, but I don't believe that line either. It was at a time when they were trying different things to get something to stick, because they weren't exactly setting the charts alight.
Anyway my point on that, several of the younger members of NMB mentioned they wanted to try singing this song (when they shuffled the members for a different concert) and copied the older members moves because they thought it made them look sexy. So it seems to me that they want to come across that way sometimes because of the ego boost etc. I'm not saying they always do, but sometimes they do.

They want to act that way because their sempai's do, much like younger sisters the world over will steal their older sisters makeup etc etc

Gingerninja Wrote:A man can't be raped by a woman in English law either I'm pretty sure, it's classed as sexual assault, not rape.

That's different because if you read the Wikipedia article, a woman can actually be charged with rape. If a woman helps a man rape a woman she'll be a conspirator and can be charged with raping the woman.

However a woman can't be charged for raping a man. But that's not very common anyway. Something like 99% of rapes are committed by men. So what's outrageous is that if a man rapes a young boy or an older man he can't be charged with rape! He can only be charged with the lesser crime of indecent assault. That's pretty messed up.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Could you please define "creepy", explain why it is creepy, and whether you think it should be illegal for an older man to like AKB48?

Creepy is a feeling. Its generally creepy because you have a bunch of old men fawning over girls in the 16-20 yr old range. Could they like them for the music? Maybe, but many die hard fans are very fixated on particular girls in the group. But they could easily like them for other reasons, some which may be sexual while others may be for something more 'bizarre,' like viewing them as "little sisters." Both of which most people would find at best, odd, or at worst, disgusting/discomforting. The further in the "worst" direction you go the more likely you are to find it "creepy."

No one here (as far as I can recall) has said that it should be illegal though and legislated. I think that steps a bit too much towards "thought crime" in my book too be honest. But that does not change the fact that there is something bizarre about that.

kainzero Wrote:the official line from akimoto from a CNN interview:

I had read that interview (transcript) when I was searching for the quote where Akimoto admitted that he had initially tailored the group toward single 40-something guys. And I found it amusing because its a bit believable if you are gullible. When the song title, 制服が邪魔をする, I actually had to make sure I wasn't mixing up another one of Akimoto's great songs: セーラー服を脱がさないで from his Onyanko Club days.
I believe he's just crafted a very believable cover story for the way the group is set up, the songs they sing, and the way some PVs are done. I believe there is a bit of a parallel between girls that dress up in skimpy clothes and then get angry when people(guys) stare at them. "I'm just trying to dress like I want and be fashionable, not my fault guys can't stop staring at me when I'm half naked." -> "Its not my fault that the media and people read my lines about school uniforms and pranceing the girls around in underwear; and see them as being sexual."

qwertyytrewq Wrote:I don't know if this has been brought up yet but there seems to be an unquestioned acceptance of the "it is creepy for an older man to like AKB48" statement as fact.

Could you please define "creepy", explain why it is creepy, and whether you think it should be illegal for an older man to like AKB48?

For an older male fan, it is presumed that his liking of AKB is based on sexual attraction (I could be the music but unlikely, as they are far better J-pop bands including ones with male members).

Older men being sexually attracted to much younger girls is culturally regarded as "creepy" / odd in most countries, as being attracted to a person based on their youthful looks, attitude and "purity" is similar to pedophilia.

Don't really get your "illegal" comment; it can't ever be against the law to "like" anything, so it's a non-point.

This reminds of a BBC documentary I saw last year about Beckii Cruel. Her Japanese manager was trying to explain why most of the people watching her youtube videos and em-mailing were 40+ Japanese males, and he said "It's not sexual. Japanese men just love to see a young cute girl dancing around, as it makes them feel happy, youthful and vigorous for the rest of the day". I remembering thinking BS, as it didn't explain why she didn't have obsessive older female fans, or why her video viewing numbers seem to depend on what outfit she's wearing..

Weird thing is her parents accepted the lame "Japanese has a different fan culture" and were happy for their 15 year old daughter to spend most evenings messaging guys in their 30's and 40's, as it was convenient for them (she got thousands of pounds worth of gifts sent to her house from male fans).

@qwertyytrewq the argument goes that it is creepy because a lot of people that age are not mature enough to make decisions about sex lives for themselves and these same men might preposition girls that age.

I must add that in my own experience a lot of people use calling a guy a lech an excuse to belittle him. I used to deliberately intimidate this pub but the female bouncer pulled me up for speaking to a woman. Just this was enough to call me a 'lech'.

I have had attention from gay men and I have just laughed it off and actually felt flattered. I rarely hit on girls now but I always ask before I can touch them...

I think a lot of men are accused of being perverts when they are not though I do think there are a LOT of men out there who do rape women though I don't think they fit the usual stereotype.

I think the question is where do you draw the line? I often drink in bars where men slap women's butts and I think this is out of order. I also see this from the perspective of being a generally tough person who dealt with being useless at school by becoming a sociopath... I can see how a grope would effect a woman more than a cynical, hardened, bastard such as myself. I do think touching a woman sexually without consent is very bad indeed.

I do think it is very tricky where do draw the line on consent and think it is down to people to use their common sense and be nice people.