After seeing how bad they are, it's hard to believe that the fans are there for the "talent" and the music.

Also, I think that one thing that's creepy with a big age difference is that these older men really have nothing in common with these girls. What kind of interests would they share? They're of a completely different generation. These guys are the same age or older than the girls' fathers. Would the 16 years old even be attracted to the older guys as opposed to just their money? I doubt it. I see this as creating very weird relationships that have nothing to do with "love".

i thought that last video i posted with JUJU was pretty good...

but yeah, i don't think anyone (including the members themselves) say they got where they are through sheer talent, or that they'd even say they're really good. a lot of interviews from a few years ago had the members expecting the boom to die down already and that they'd be back to obscurity.

again, i posted a lot of videos of them being bad because i know when they're bad. i can post a lot of videos of good things about them. (also a lot of the funnier videos from their TV shows are taken down from yt because tv stations in japan have that kind of wide-ranging network to do so.)

here's one that doesn't have anything to do with singing or dancing at all:

i think that, more or less, it was really intended to be small-scale and local but it ended up blowing up and becoming a national phenomenon. it would be like if high school sports became more popular than professional sports.

Eikyu Wrote:Also, I think that one thing that's creepy with a big age difference is that these older men really have nothing in common with these girls. What kind of interests would they share?

i'm finding more and more that attraction has little to do with similar interests but with the meshing of one's personality with another.
i dunno why but as far as friends go, on lang-8 most of my friends are like housewives in their 40s, but i can still crack jokes and talk about random stuff despite the generation gap. not to say that i'm attracted to them or that they're attracted to me, but a friendly bond can still exist.

kainzero Wrote:

Eikyu Wrote:Also, I think that one thing that's creepy with a big age difference is that these older men really have nothing in common with these girls. What kind of interests would they share?

i'm finding more and more that attraction has little to do with similar interests but with the meshing of one's personality with another.
i dunno why but as far as friends go, on lang-8 most of my friends are like housewives in their 40s, but i can still crack jokes and talk about random stuff despite the generation gap. not to say that i'm attracted to them or that they're attracted to me, but a friendly bond can still exist.

Uh... the old creepy dudes want to sleep the the AKB48 members. You want to practice Japanese whether it's with people your age or further apart. These are not the same two things that you can compare to each other. After skimming through 9 pages of this ridiculousness I feel you should just admit that AKB48 is a marketing stunt. They have no talent. They have no personality. Many aren't even that cute. A few? Sure. A majority are not though.

And yeah I see you are admitting it, but you don't seem to be accepting what you're admitting. I say this because you then get into these various reasons that might separate them being bad from them being good. It's okay to like some of them but not like everything else.

TheVinster Wrote:Uh... the old creepy dudes want to sleep the the AKB48 members. You want to practice Japanese whether it's with people your age or further apart. These are not the same two things that you can compare to each other. After skimming through 9 pages of this ridiculousness I feel you should just admit that AKB48 is a marketing stunt. They have no talent. They have no personality. Many aren't even that cute. A few? Sure. A majority are not though.

Maybe you should read the thread instead of "skimming" There's plenty of discussion on the marketing, what it is, how it works and why it works, if it's good/bad/indifferent. Your reasons for not liking them are purely subjective opinion however.

I don't think you'll find a fan who likes everything, but then as individuals you can make your mind up which stuff you like and which you don't.
I can't stand the dating games and the fact none of them get much of a break, they celebrate having a day off like they've just won the lottery.
On the other hand, I enjoy their game shows and the backstage footage of the stupid shit many of them do to amuse themselves inbetween shows.
From a purely business/media perspective, that side of it is something to be studied by future members of the industry on how to make a fanbase, and then how to have them begging you for ways to give you more money.

if you want to see AKB members that can actually sing and dance check out DIVA.　(I think they always sing live and it sounds good... if you want see go to youku.com and search because YT removes everything. I also like all the members in it) Yes most of the akb members suck at singing at dancing but not all of them suck at it. Itano tomomi especially sucks at singing but for some reason she went solo lol.

if you want more live singing you can check out this akbingo episode

most of them sucked obviously and I think this girl was the best (the one I linked).

out of the solo so far I think mayuyu is the best just because by default maeda atsuko and itano tomomi can't sing... mayuyu actually sang live on whatever performances she did on tv and it sounded good so...

So yeah check out DIVA or mayuyu.....

TheVinster Wrote:Uh... the old creepy dudes want to sleep the the AKB48 members. You want to practice Japanese whether it's with people your age or further apart. These are not the same two things that you can compare to each other.

you missed the point of my argument.

eikyu said, "these guys are creepy because there's no way they have similar interests."
i said, "i have similar interests with people much older than me and can hang out with them." as well as "similar interests don't really mean anything for two people to mesh well together."

that's not to say that old guys lusting after teenagers isn't horrible.
i was stating that there are legit reasons for people with wide age differences to be attracted to each other and be friends (or lovers, i guess) and that that shouldn't be the sole reason for them to be seen as creepy.

Quote:And yeah I see you are admitting it, but you don't seem to be accepting what you're admitting. I say this because you then get into these various reasons that might separate them being bad from them being good.

i put stuff out there for people here to form a legit opinion. the start of this thread was not so that i can defend akb and say they're great and you should like them, but to provide everyone with accurate information and they can judge them themselves. not many people knew about the heavy rotation interview with the director. (some here choose to reject her reasons, which is fine.) or that seifuku ga jama wo suru was a really old song and not even that popular. or that the fanbase is not 95% middle-aged otaku.

i did confirm their lip synching and vocal talent.

i didn't start this thread to change people's opinions regarding the whole group or to convert you guys to fans, though i seem to be accomplishing the opposite, lol.




if you want my honest opinion on the group?

-i'm a bigger fan of nmb48 than akb48. nmb48 tv shows are funnier. humor is the number 1 reason i'm a fan of the groups. it's very easy to understand for a japanese learner.

-they have personality. they are ALL about personality. one of the reasons why the TV shows are so funny is because they have a lot of jokes you can understand if you know the members. ask me about any member, and i can probably tell you a lot about their individual personality (there's only a couple members i'm unfamiliar with). this is probably why i'm fine with them not having "talent."

-i don't like the word "talent" because i think 90% of accomplishment is hard work. AKB is marketed to show them working hard. that's not to say that no one else is working hard, but they show you how they're doing it and that's what they're selling. i bought into it, just like i buy many books of people talking about improvement and getting better. their latest single, "Give Me Five!" was about them learning instruments and playing them live. it wasn't even high school level but i loved it because of what it stood for. whether it's just me liking them or 100000 people liking them doesn't matter.

-i'm studying japanese. akb shows, books, blogs, related properties, etc. have been my outlet for Real Japanese™. as i got better i'm finding myself more entertained by them because i can get some of their jokes, understand the stuff i had better. one can argue that i feel like i'm growing in skill as they're growing as well. i'm hoping that i can branch out into other japanese things as i get better, but at the moment this is pretty much the only tie i have to Real Japanese™. at the moment i'm really not that interested in other things that absolutely require japanese. this is my motivation.

-speaking of branching out, i found a lot stuff from watching their shows. i'm currently into 70's-80's jpop. i started to like some comedians because they host or appear on their shows (peace is great). food that i would've never known about or tried. i learned about random culture and history because i wanted to understand what they were talking about. i feel like if i'm going to start finding more interesting japanese stuff, it's gonna start from here.

-their music is not the greatest music. i'm fine with that. for me, music is stronger when it has an emotional impact. i listened to the song "Love Story" by Amuro Namie and i didn't like it. then i watched the drama where they played it over and over and all of a sudden i really dig the song. i feel the same way with the 48 groups' music and their performances. on its own; not very good, horrible even. with experiences behind it, it carries more weight with me. (this works both ways; i can never listen to 枯葉のステーション now that 前田敦子 butchered it.)
hell, at the moment i'm infatuated with chopin's nocturne no.2 just because it's the 1st song that autoplays on the piano i just bought. (i'm learning how to play!)

-like i stated in the beginning, there's plenty of things i don't like. i don't like their slutty stuff--if i wanted that kinda stuff, i'd just watch porn. i don't like the fact that they lip synch and i'll probably never attend a concert for that reason. i don't like the fans, i don't like their stupid mixing, i don't like wotagei, etc. they need to calm the hell down. people getting in fights over oshimen is stupid.

-i think the best part about being a fan in the US is that you aren't smothered with it. i have the choice to turn them off and do something else and never have them in my eyesight. not so in Japan. i was definitely tired of them in japan and i was only there for two weeks this past trip.

kainzero Wrote:-i think the best part about being a fan in the US is that you aren't smothered with it. i have the choice to turn them off and do something else and never have them in my eyesight. not so in Japan. i was definitely tired of them in japan and i was only there for two weeks this past trip.

This obviously depends on your friend group and what you do^^
I have almost zero exposure to AKB and I live in Japan.

Basically, once every month or so at karaoke, someone will do Heavy Rotation half or fully jokingly, and all us guys sit back and comment on the video--generally either making sexual comments or MST3K style criticisms, depending on which guy. That's my only regular exposure to them.

(Oh! Except that their pictures are all over the place in 7-11, since they have some sort of marketing deal.

Note also that I don't watch TV or read magazines or anything, which would increase my exposure a lot just by how often they are in advertising.)

So, yeah, you can choose to turn them off, but it depends on some other factors in your life.

@vileru - A delayed response, sorry. (It's rather long, so I'll split it.) Perhaps I wasn't writing very clearly, but there seems to be a bit of a disconnect.

* I thought we had already established we have the same views on a few of the points you made. The confusion might stem from the use of "traits" and "roles". You seem to use them interchangeably, whereas I haven't been using them as equivalents. When I say gender roles are problematic, I mean the social norms which associate certain traits with gender. The traits themselves are not the problem, the gendered roles are. "Innocence" is not the problem, "Women ought to be innocent" is.

* Both innocence (generally) and sexual innocence were discussed in the thread. My comments weren't limited to sexual innocence (and the implications of sexual innocence apply to both girls and women.) I think IceCream's post (which you quoted) pretty clearly references both. I'm not entirely sure sharper distinctions of innocence were needed - at least not for what I had in mind.

(Perhaps I created some confusion when I used "sexual innocence" once to refer to the contradiction of simultaneously presenting the girls as sexual and innocent which had been mentioned a few times? Maybe something like "sexual, yet innocent" or "sexy innocence" would have been clearer. But the sentence described the contradiction, so...shrug)

Quote:I did not mean to suggest that the actual power imbalance should be ignored, but that it's grounded in a perceived power imbalance, i.e. the actual power imbalance arises because people act upon the perceived imbalance. Hence, even if you fix an instance of actual power imbalance, the perceived imbalance nevertheless remains.

I assume you're speaking more generally b/c I still don't see how this applies to the AKB eg.

I'm thinking you mean that if society perceives a trait (eg. innocence) as weak, then people will treat people who are (or are assumed/expected to be) innocent as weak and there will be an imbalance of power. If societal attitudes change such that innocence is no longer considered weak, then the power imbalance would disappear.

That innocence itself is perceived as weak isn't really an issue for me. What I see as problematic is that it's considered a feminine ideal. This is a holdover from a time when women were meant to stay inside and not bother their pretty little heads with worldly concerns. It was unattractive for a woman to voice her opinions on such matters. In this sense, innocence is a trait which reflects women's gendered role in society...and reinforces it.

Once innocence is untethered from gender, how it's perceived will no longer disproportionately affect women. If it turns out that innocent people are less effective than more worldly people in certain situations, innocence might very well continue to be associated with weakness or subordination. In other situations or relationships in which power is completely irrelevant, innocence might be viewed more positively (as unjaded, etc.)

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Sorry but if the "exploitation" of AKB48 was as bad as some people say it is, then the people against it have a moral obligation to ask for the banning of it.

Why? You realise it is possible to feel *morally* against something, but not want it to be banned or made illegal.

Noe let me reiterate something icecream says: NO ONE HAS MENTIONED BANNING ANYTHING OR MAKING ANYTHING ILLEGAL IN THIS THREAD EXCEPT YOU. Either you're massively misunderstanding what people are posting, or you're deliberately arguing against a straw man.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:And at least one person has stated their opinion that some things should be illegal, and I respect that opinion. No beating around the bush, no wishy-washy "I believe AKB48 are being illegally exploited but I can't prove it", just a plain outright call for a ban.

umetani666 Wrote:AKB48's music should be illegal.
and all discussions about them, for that matter.

:O

The post you quote is obviously a joke. It's called "exaggeration for comic effect", and is quite common on the internet.

Sorry but if adultery and lying were as bad as some people say it is, then the people against it have a moral obligation to ask for the banning of it.

That's pretty much what your argument boils down to qwertyqwert.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Regarding the comparison between BC and that other girl (Fat Ugly Girl Singing or FUGS), and the guys viewing those videos, I continue to stand by what I believe to be a legitimate argument in exposing the double standard/inconsistency. I'm not going to type it again but for the convenience of our readers, here they are:

(BROKEN LINK) http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pi...24#p172624
(BROKEN LINK) http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pi...01#p172801

If anyone wants to me to clarify on any part, feel free to ask.

In reply to this; I think there's been a misunderstanding somewhere..

Beckii Cruel has a huge older male following. If you click the "video statistics" under her youtube videos, you'll usually see:

"This video is popular with":
Gender Age
Female 13-17
Male 45-54
Male 35-44

This was also backed up by the documentary I watched, where she, her parents and her manager all talked about her large obsessive male Japanese fanbase. They tried to rationalise it, and so was I in my post - are 40+ Japanese men genuinely interested in para-para dance routines and anime music?

Watch the documentary linked above: On her birthday she receives a Fender bass guitar worth around $1000USD from a (late 30s) Japanese fan; is he really spending all this money on her because he loves poorly choreographed dancing?

The chubby girl singer you posted; her videos statstics are all watched by teens. She doesn't have an old-male fan base,and as far as I know she doesn't have obsessive fans. I guess Beckii Cruel is also watched by teens, but that's irrelevant as we're not talking about them in this thread.

Vileru Wrote:What I want to emphasize is that gender inequality won't be eliminated by attacking certain attitudes or roles, but rather by attacking how we think about and how we approach those attitudes and roles, that is, our perspective of them. It's counterproductive (and maybe even wishful thinking) to try and erase certain character traits. Instead, we should transform them so as to eliminate or at least minimize their negative effects.

As IceCream and I mentioned, no one is talking about erasing or attacking character traits (eg innocence). The traits themselves aren't the problem. The problem is social norms which assign certain traits to gender (gender roles).

I don't see how we would "transform [innocence] so as to eliminate or at least minimize [its] negative effects"? Innocence has negative and positive connotations and I don't see why we'd need to change that or perceptions of that. What we need to change, imo, is the belief that innocence is a female trait. A feminine ideal.

If you mean we need to alter the negative perception of certain traditionally feminine traits so that men will be willing to acquire/adopt them too, I think that can be either part of the process or an outcome. We've seen a lot of that already (alternative dispute resolution, for eg.) But some traits are actually negative in whole or in part, so it's more a matter of recognizing those as not exclusively female.

If you had in mind changing society's negative perceptions of some biologically determined female traits, you'll have to start a new thread. haha

Quote:How else do we transform the way society views and responds to certain attitudes and roles other than by changing society's perspective?

Wasn't it clear that I'm interested in changing society's perspective? I think we're on the same page here, too. (I stressed the role of education and awareness to combat harmful societal attitudes which are beyond the reach of the law. I emphasized the role of media in constructing/reinforcing gender roles. I'm spending time on an internet forum attempting to add a different perspective to topics previously approached from a purely free choice/my "rights" angle by a few posters... fwiw) ;p

Quote:If we agree with the argument that social attitudes influence actual behavior (e.g. sexual attraction to innocence leads to the sexualization of children), then it follows that criticisms and shunning of character traits (e.g. innocence) will influence how people with those character traits are treated. Therefore, if society looks down on innocence in adults, then society also looks down on innocent adults as well. This is why I think the roles are not the issue, but rather the issue is how society views, negotiates, and assigns them.

Again, no one is looking down on, criticizing, or shunning innocence. As such, I needn't be concerned about the consequences you envision. I'd like to shine a light on the processes by which people are socialized to think women ought to be innocent (for eg.) and the potentially harmful effects of those socialized beliefs.

I already mentioned distinguishing "roles" and "traits". I think we were saying the same thing differently. :-)

To the extent that male sexual attraction to innocence derives from the merger of femininity and innocence, eliminating that connection might lessen the attraction. This would likely help reduce any associated sexualization of children (children being extreme innocents.)

Delinking femininity and (relative) sexual innocence would have a number of other benefits, too. Getting rid of the double standards, for a start. We can't really talk about victimless sex work or harmless porn as long as social stigma still remains. (This is where qwerty might want to expand his myopic perspective.)

If we're talking about "sexual innocence" as in "no sexual experience", I think we're venturing into fetish territory (virgin fetish?) rather than broader social norms. Teenagers would be likely targets. I have no idea if disentangling innocence from femininity would have any effect on this kind of fetish. Maybe. But using minors as sexual bait to reel in virgin fetishists is creepy. (I'm glad to see that revised child porn laws are at least taking some of that jr gravure stuff off the market.)

I can't help but view the younger and older teen idols, the racy photo books, the videos, the gravure stuff, etc. as parts of the same phenomenon. The girls are just product. Sexualized objects used by others to make money. Reality TV merchandizing. It's like a modern multimedia version of something that feels really outdated...

Quote:This captures exactly my motivation for playing devil's advocate: I wanted to clarify our reasoning and make sharper distinctions.

Oh? I had assumed your motivation was to accuse me of "arrogant perception". ;-)

Oh I just thought of NO SLEEVES aka n03b or no3b or something.
They're another subgroup of akb48 where the members are actually good at singing and dancing. But I think the best is DIVA. They're very good live.

omg ACCHAN is graduating akb48?

　人気アイドルグループ・AKB48のエース、前田敦子（20）がグループを卒業することが決定した。さいたまスーパーアリーナ3Days公演の最終日となる25日、全ての演目を終えたあとに前田が「きょうここで大きな決断をさせてください。私、前田敦子はAKB48を卒業します。私なりに頑張った6年半でした」と発表すると、AKB史上最大の衝撃発表に会場は騒然となり、メンバーは泣き崩れた。卒業時期は現時点で未定。

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=201203...9-oric-ent

Oh they haven't decided on a date yet.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/sisure/archives/4680395.html

I read a quote on twitter yesterday that said,
AKB is the only fandom in which the fans fear concerts rather than get excited for them.

3 days of big announcement's culminating in that ^, to say the fan base is a bit rocked to the core would be an understatement.

hmmm I like the guy's comment at the end of the video explaining the implications of her graduation and the whole akb48 thing (why it's so special to the fans)

I like his explanation at the end of this video too

here's more YT videos on the graduation.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_qu...l27j6l33l0.

AKB visits elementary school in Washington DC.

http://www.tokyohive.com/2012/03/akb48-v...ington-dc/

I really wonder what the kids' reaction was like.

kainzero Wrote:AKB visits elementary school in Washington DC.

http://www.tokyohive.com/2012/03/akb48-v...ington-dc/

I really wonder what the kids' reaction was like.

Article Wrote:AKB48’s Takajo Aki (20), Miyazawa Sae (21), and Hirata Rina (13)

I know if I was a teacher I'd be like, "Aki, Sae, wssup girls?.....Rina, go play with the kids."

apparently hirata rina is a returnee and a native speaker of english. (i had no idea who she was)

now she can teach them this:

lol that video was so funnny... her voice!

kainzero Wrote:apparently hirata rina is a returnee and a native speaker of english. (i had no idea who she was)

now she can teach them this:

12th gen KKS, does that 30 second english lesson most days, occasionally with another member attempting it. She does use a really high pitch, but I think it's to cover her accent being raised in Arizona or somewhere, she's an English speaker (think's in English) and is still learning Japanese on the job (pressure much.)

Surely the fake squeaky Japanese voice is put on to sound cute ..

Isn't that exactly how otaku fans want their female idols to speak?

You must have missed the memo. Much of Japan also likes the squeaky voice. Its lodged in the culture. Girls mimic what they see on TV, so you get a lot of girls that grow up thinking you should probably talk like this and many tend to switch in and out of it unconsciously. Least that's how its always seemed to me.

　I don't know so or at least I hope not. Some people's voices are too high or too burriko that it's obviously fake. Some people even have past videos where they talk normally which is really deep compared to how they talk now (by this I mean ogura yuuko. But it was so scary because it's so different). I mean they talk like that so they can sell and seem more cute.

But like that girl in SDN48 is ridiculous... serina?

here's how she really talks:

somebody on this talk/variety show said to her you talk like a 6 year old... it's just so ridiculous how she talks. But like I said, she's only doing that because she thinks it'll help her succeed in the geinoukai or whatever-kai she's in.

>> I guess in general, her voice would be higher in Japanese than in English but the difference is so drastic I really don't think that's her real japanese voice lol. It's just so different. IT's hilarious. this one made me lol too

%3D

OMG UPDATE for that sdn girl

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