I'm sure that the producers pushed more sexual songs/image on Britney because that's where the money was. I don't think her popularity had much to do with her talent. And they probably didn't care much about what consequences this could have on her.

zigmonty Wrote:I actually think that's one of their better songs. Most of their songs i can't stand (mainly the over the top "happy" ones), whereas that one has a different tone to it.

Well, that song was back in the days when they actually updated their live performance setlists. If you look through those you'll find a wide variety of songs.
However, their singles so far have followed a set pattern for the last 3 years.
February/March - Sakura/Graduation-style song
May/June - Bikini PV + happy summer love
August/September - Uptempo song named in English for some reason
October/November - Serious, "never give up" song

Not that I'm trying to get you to listen to their other songs, but they are out there if you dig into the stages.

Quote:Sexy girls dressed as school girls singing about sexy themes == fine.
Sexy school girls, who actually *are* like 15 years old, singing about sexy themes == maybe crosses the line.

I find this filled with hilarious irony, yet I would agree, lol. =)
Sexy school girls are okay as long as they're not really school girls!

Quote:Actually, this touches on something i've often wondered. Maybe this is because i'm an engineer but... Why is it ok for say Apple to engineer a product such as the iPhone to sell as well as possible, but when someone does it with music it's somehow a crime against art?

Hm, you haven't been following all the Foxconn stuff lately?
Or the closed practices of the iTunes store?
The secrecy of their business practices?

If you want to find the "crime against art" people in the computer world, just follow the open-source movement.

.

kainzero Wrote:

Quote:Sexy girls dressed as school girls singing about sexy themes == fine.
Sexy school girls, who actually *are* like 15 years old, singing about sexy themes == maybe crosses the line.

I find this filled with hilarious irony, yet I would agree, lol. =)
Sexy school girls are okay as long as they're not really school girls!

see, i don't think this is right. cos how is it really better to pretend you're a sexy 15 year old? Sure, the person involved isn't underage, so it's slightly less directly bad for that person, but it still sexualises 15 year olds either way.

IceCream Wrote:see, i don't think this is right. cos how is it really better to pretend you're a sexy 15 year old? Sure, the person involved isn't underage, so it's slightly less directly bad for that person, but it still sexualises 15 year olds either way.

maybe they just like the outfit...

i am personally attracted to more adult looking people so that's how it would work for me

kainzero Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:see, i don't think this is right. cos how is it really better to pretend you're a sexy 15 year old? Sure, the person involved isn't underage, so it's slightly less directly bad for that person, but it still sexualises 15 year olds either way.

maybe they just like the outfit...

i am personally attracted to more adult looking people so that's how it would work for me

Yep, school girl outfits are hot, don't ask me to explain it. It might have a lot to do with what all the girls around me were wearing during my umm formative years. I have no desire to date a 15 year old and don't really find myself perving on actual school girls, but a hot 20-something wearing one (especially one that you'd never get away with wearing at a real school)... yeah that's different. French maid uniforms are another stereotypically "sexy" outfit. Does that mean the people who like them want to hook up with an actual maid?? You're reading too much into it.

merlin.codex Wrote:A group of members who can't sing properly (karaoke level) and can't dance as well (notice that the videos are pretty much close-ups + story-like sucky elements).

Their popularity is artificially created as well. The group's purpose is to please everyone's expectations entirely. Nerd A likes pony-tail, Nerd B likes a chubby one and so on. I don't remember who but currently you can see one of the members in adult videos, so you can get the picture.

They sure seem to be able to sing to me, and while their dancing is not exactly complicated, it gets the job done. If their music is not your style (most of their songs aren't mine) or if the artificiality turns you off (doesn't bother me), then you won't like them. I'm not sure i'd exactly call myself a fan (i've mostly only been paying attention to them since the start of this thread lol), but they seem plenty talented enough for the attention they get imho. Some people seem to struggle to differentiate "i don't like it" and "they have no talent". And besides, since when has pop music been the quest for the most talented singer?? Lol.

zigmonty Wrote:They sure seem to be able to sing to me, and while their dancing is not exactly complicated, it gets the job done. If their music is not your style (most of their songs aren't mine) or if the artificiality turns you off (doesn't bother me), then you won't like them. I'm not sure i'd exactly call myself a fan (i've mostly only been paying attention to them since the start of this thread lol), but they seem plenty talented enough for the attention they get imho. Some people seem to struggle to differentiate "i don't like it" and "they have no talent". And besides, since when has pop music been the quest for the most talented singer?? Lol.

Sorry, but AKB48 has no ***** talent. They can't dance, they can't sing, and they don't write songs (and even if they did, they're shit songs).

I just went to two out of three days of a music festival in Kyoto and saw about ten different groups/bands, and every member of every act I saw was more talented than any member of AKB48. And they are all nobodies who are making no money.

And it's not a matter of opinion either--they actually just ARE more talented. Better vocal ranges, can play instruments, can write songs, can come up with their own ways of getting attention on stage, etc.

(Also, I've played a bunch of instruments in my life, the longest being guitar for about ten years, so I know enough to distinguish the ability of different musicians)

So, no, it's not that people 'don't like them,' it's that they have no talent. In fact, it makes me angry to even hear that after I just watched a bunch of musicians who actually worked their ass off for years to actually be able to make good music.

Tzadeck Wrote:So, no, it's not that people 'don't like them,' it's that they have no talent. In fact, it makes me angry to even hear that after I just watched a bunch of musicians who actually worked their ass off for years to actually be able to make good music.

Lol ok. But you have to reconcile that with the fact that no one gives a damn about these supposedly more talented artists. I guess every single person who likes AKB is just being misled by a mix of slick marketing and hormones right? You don't like them, fine, i don't really either. Most of their songs are horrendously screechy (why am i defending them again? lol). But the rest of society doesn't think your favourite artists are all that great (by your own admission).

I played an instrument (guitar/bass) for around 5-6 years and mostly hung around musicians in HS (who were all far more into it than me). And universally they thought pop music was crap and the people who made it had no talent. Yet the music they liked (and frankly i liked at the time) wasn't popular. Maybe something about being a musician makes you overanalyse music searching for talent. More technical songs that require more skill aren't necessarily better songs. Popularity isn't a simple function of vocal range, however much you may admire someone with exceptional ability. And besides, most people just aren't paying that much attention.

As for the writing of the songs, like i said above, i don't give a damn about that. But then, i'm an engineer. Our products aren't sculpted by a single talented mind, they are the result of committees and cynical marketing. While i can admire the talent of one crazy guy who designs and builds his own engine etc and puts the video on youtube, i don't think the engines Ford make are "artificial" because a bunch of guys in suits quibbled over cost-benefit analyses etc before it even got to the design stage. Like it or not, pop music is an industry. It churns out stuff that the average person wants to listen to. There's always been a segment of the market who hate it, and there always will be. And frankly, they do tend to be the ones who actually know a thing or two about music. That doesn't make you right.

Edit: Note that at no point did i say that i thought that AKB were especially talented nor did i claim there aren't more talented artists. I'm merely saying that claiming they have "no talent" or that they "can't sing" comes off as a pretty ridiculous exaggeration at best and bitter jealousy at worst.

[Zgarbas]

There's nothing wrong with pop or simple music, but there is a point where it gets just so lazy/bad/fake it hurts.

zigmonty Wrote:But the rest of society doesn't think your favourite artists are all that great (by your own admission).

Huh? I went to a random music festival with no one I had ever heard of before. When did I say 'my favorite artists'?

Actually, all but one of my favorite musicians/bands did well commercially (The one that didn't is Cerberus Shoal, which, admittedly, is quite strange. My favorite artist of all time is probably Bob Dylan, who was hardly a technical player).

Anyway, you're projecting the silliness of your high school friends onto me. In fact, I think that's largely characteristic of high school musicians. I don't meet many musicians who care a lot about technical ability--that's not what I was saying. Rather, go around to any high school with 500 or more kids, and you will find about 30 of them who are natural enough at dancing and singing to do the AKB48 thing--can't I call that no talent? If there are more than ten million people in Japan or America who could do what AKB48 members do, which I think is true, I don't see it as an exaggeration to say 'no talent.'

(Note: It's not like my bar is so high for talent. For example, I'd say that Katy Perry is a really talented singer.)

Tzadeck Wrote:Anyway, you're projecting the silliness of your high school friends onto me. In fact, I think that's largely characteristic of high school musicians. I don't meet many musicians who care a lot about technical ability--that's not what I was saying.

Hahaha, yep you got me. I've been having this argument since long before i'd ever heard of AKB. Sorry.

Tzadeck Wrote:Rather, go around to any high school with 500 or more kids, and you will find about 30 of them who are natural enough at dancing and singing to do the AKB48 thing--can't I call that no talent? If there are more than ten million people in Japan or America who could do what AKB48 members do, which I think is true, I don't see it as an exaggeration to say 'no talent.'

Ok, that's a simple disagreement then. 30/500 = 6%. Arguing that the 94th percentile of musical talent in a population equals "no talent" seems rather strange to me, but ok. The way i see it is simple: I have no talent as a singer. Lumping AKB into the same basket as me just seems well weird. "Not especially talented", sure.

I think pop music is more of a threshold thing talent-wise. You've gotta be above the threshold, but once you are, other factors are far more important in terms of your success. Hence all the brilliant musicians stuck with terrible gigs.

See, you put things into concrete numbers and all conflicts get resolved ^^

Tzadeck Wrote:See, you put things into concrete numbers and all conflicts get resolved ^^

LMAO. OK, so we've established:

Me < AKB < Katy Perry < Random Kyoto Festival Musicians

Now, were said festival musicians wearing school uniforms and what sort of commentary is that on feminism in 21st century japan.

zigmonty Wrote:Now, were said festival musicians wearing school uniforms and what sort of commentary is that on feminism in 21st century japan.

Hmm, the girl from this band,

http://www.alphaenterprise.jp/jamaica1top.html

was wearing quite a revealing dress and I was thinking not so clean things at times. No school uniforms though.

Tzadeck Wrote:

zigmonty Wrote:Now, were said festival musicians wearing school uniforms and what sort of commentary is that on feminism in 21st century japan.

Hmm, the girl from this band,

http://www.alphaenterprise.jp/jamaica1top.html

was wearing quite a revealing dress and I was thinking not so clean things at times. No school uniforms though.

Well, i do tend to think the "revealing" part is more important than the "school uniform" part, so i can get behind that. OK, consensus achieved, i'm going to bed.

zigmonty Wrote:But the rest of society doesn't think your favourite artists are all that great (by your own admission).

well, a lot of what people like comes down to whatever happens to have a lot of money behind it and is pushed forcefully on people by the major record labels. When someone with talent does have money behind them, they are also very popular. Take Adele for example:

She's actually quite a good example of someone who doesn't need sex to sell her music, and how you actually don't have to prostitute yourself out to become amazingly popular. It's just about having the money backing you to make it. This video also has 268 million views to Britney Spear's "hit me baby one more time" at 58 million.

Or like Tzadeck said, Bob Dylan. Not everyone has the time or the priorities to spend a whole lot of time searching for musicians that are more talented. So a lot of it comes down to whatever's reasonably catchy and getting pushed heavily on radio stations and TV.

@IceCream.. Britney Spears,

You are aware that the staying a virgin until marriage was a marketing ploy, despite what the IMDB profile will tell you. You started sleeping around at 14 based on her popularity from her days on the Disney show. Her boyfriend at the time was an 18 year old American football player. She didn't believe in shit. Hilary Duff said the same thing when she was a big Disney star, and backed away from that statement once she struck out on her own as an adult.

They're all guilty of marketing spin.

Hell Britney's "Breakdown" was the greatest piece of marketing I've ever seen in my life. Took a completely non relevant singer, got her face on the front page of every newspaper for years, only to relaunch herself, with world tour attached, and what do you know, people are talking about her because she "pulled herself together" and she gets the sales again.

Not everyone in AKB48 is an aspiring musician. It's just part of the territory that comes with being an idol--you pretty much have to do everything. Their future, however, can lie somewhere else. They can be aspiring actresses, models, voice actresses, variety show people, etc.

That's not to say there isn't musical talent in the group.
増田有華:　

岩佐美咲：

松井咲子：

How about an aspiring golfer?
山内鈴蘭：

@gingerninja hahah well, it wouldn't surprise if that had been a marketing ploy, kind of like the deniability stuff that AKB do. i had never even heard of it until yesterday, when i read the imdb page tbh lol. And right, her company has made money out of marketing her problems. But while that's using her, it's not like it was fake. She really was a mess, wasn't she? Didn't she have her children taken away from her too?
Anyway, whatever, i'm not actually interested / don't care to know. I just don't like her, or the way she's marketed.

@kainzero: what?? lol, do you call that talent? cos i call that flat. Like someone said earlier, you can find better singers than that at karaoke.

EDIT: ok, maybe that's slightly harsh. obviously they aren't the worst singers i've ever heard. but there really are stacks and stacks of more talented singers out there.

well, it is what it is.

i have practically zero musical background, but 2ch has called them pretty good. fwiw they call everybody else "karaoke level or worse" (except maybe 秋元才加) so 2ch does have perspective. the video of 岩佐美咲 is also a year old; she received a lot of vocal training for her solo debut enka single, 無人駅 but i couldn't find any videos on yt of her performing it live because they take it down quickly.

i think saying that "there are more talented singers" is akin to saying "there are worse problems to debate than akb," i just wanted to point out that there is potential within the group.

there are a lot of below average or worse singers in the group, yea, i'll admit that.
板野友美：

on the other hand, behind the scenes she talks about how she's busting her ass just to get to that level and that it's still not good, not even close to the level of 岩佐美咲。 she understands it herself but she's still giving it her all, that's kinda admirable. it's this honesty and reality that makes it easier to follow instead of judging them strictly by their music.

i'll still give them crap when they perform horribly, though.
前田敦子：　http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16482609

this is one of the most embarrassing performances i've ever witnessed. i think after this i toned down being an AKB fan.

[Zgarbas]

Aw man, it's kind of sad that she(板野友美) is obviously sabotaging herself by doing all the smiling and looking pretty. There's no way you can keep that duckfacey-smile and be able to make proper sounds come out.

@qwerty: for the nth time, nobody's talking about banning anything or turning things into thought crimes in this thread. We're talking about personal attitudes towards entertainment, and how much we should support artists who are marketed in ways that negatively affect either them or other people.

I didn't mean that i don't care if Beckii Cruel is bullied, i meant that i didn't care about your ridiculous argument about what guys think of Beckii Cruel vs. that other girl. Sorry for not making that clear.

I think i made it clear enough in my post that none of the evolution arguments i gave were meant to express what i think is "the truth". But if you're going to give silly, unproven, and unbacked evolutionary arguments for sexual preferences, i can do it too, and come out with an opposite conclusion.

I'm not "against" older / younger relationships.

No, you didn't understand my retort properly.

i can't be bothered anymore, your arguments miss the point fairly substantially, so they aren't interesting to me.

@kainzero: yeah, i think you're right, in all your points in the last post. It was quite a pointless thing to say, and it is impressive that they're trying hard to improve.

Anyway, i did say that was my last post before, it probably shoulda been, i'm supposed to be reading lol. i'm also in a bit of a bad mood, i think, which isn't the best time to discuss stuff.

Zgarbas Wrote:Aw man, it's kind of sad that she(板野友美) is obviously sabotaging herself by doing all the smiling and looking pretty. There's no way you can keep that duckfacey-smile and be able to make proper sounds come out.

I assumed they were lip-synching all those live performances anyway. In a lot of videos, some of them are very obviously not holding the microphone right (they're usually pretty directional, yet some of them hold them sideways and stuff to look cool). They could be using less directional mikes i guess...

(Actually watches the video) Ok... so she's not lip-synching. Maybe that wasn't a wise idea lol. She does seem to be trying a little too hard to look cute... with the consequence of looking extremely awkward instead.

kainzero Wrote:i'll still give them crap when they perform horribly, though.
前田敦子：　http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16482609

this is one of the most embarrassing performances i've ever witnessed. i think after this i toned down being an AKB fan.

Ouch, that was just painful. I'm guessing she was just having an off day or they never would have let her do that... surely. I mean that's just obviously bad. There are parts where she almost sounds drunk or maybe just really doesn't know the song she's singing?? It's an SKE song?

OK, so i'm getting very close to retracting my rebuttal of the claim that they have no talent lol. As i said, i hadn't really payed much attention to them until this thread started. Are they just AutoTuned the hell out of normally or something? Because in both of those songs they're clearly struggling to carry a tune.

(edit: found the real version:

)

@qwertyytrewq, i thought my exchange with Tzadeck made it pretty obvious i was over talking about the school girl crap, etc...

zigmonty Wrote:Ouch, that was just painful. I'm guessing she was just having an off day or they never would have let her do that... surely. I mean that's just obviously bad. There are parts where she almost sounds drunk or maybe just really doesn't know the song she's singing?? It's an SKE song?

I've heard all the excuses. "She didn't have enough practice time." "They didn't practice having her carted around in the audience." "At least she sang, most of the people in the concert lip synched." etc. etc.
But bottom line, it happened and it was awful. Even worse, it was their first concert being broadcast over Google+/Youtube, so eeeeveryone saw it, lol.
She sang the SKE song because for that concert they were having different girls sing songs they don't usually sing. A couple of them were decent, some of them not so good, most of them lipsynched.

With the power of nicovideo you can get real comments from Japanese people!
秋元才加: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16504756
高橋みなみ： http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16477351

Quote:OK, so i'm getting very close to retracting my rebuttal of the claim that they have no talent lol. As i said, i hadn't really payed much attention to them until this thread started. Are they just AutoTuned the hell out of normally or something? Because in both of those songs they're clearly struggling to carry a tune.

99% of AKB performances are lip synched. They are absolutely horrible at singing in unison and many are terrible singing by themselves... which could be okay, given that they're not all aspiring singers.
There may be talent, but you have to dig deep to find it. It's very rare that they sing live and the better singers aren't usually the popular members. I can find all the live singing clips because I know the group, but the majority of their performances are lip synched.

柏木由紀、渡辺麻友、JUJU (Live):

kainzero Wrote:...

Jesus, stop, just stop...

OK, i hereby formally and unequivocally retract my previous statements and offer my sincere and humble apologies to everyone i was arguing with. They *are* in the same basket as me.

Still look cute in a school uniform though.