qwertyytrewq Wrote:Nice to see that double standards exist in both cultures.

no, because in america, the law still prosecutes them the same, regardless of the social attitudes. and usually the social attitude is by idiots on yahoo news or youtube.

vix86 Wrote:I had read that interview (transcript) when I was searching for the quote where Akimoto admitted that he had initially tailored the group toward single 40-something guys. And I found it amusing because its a bit believable if you are gullible. When the song title, 制服が邪魔をする, I actually had to make sure I wasn't mixing up another one of Akimoto's great songs: セーラー服を脱がさないで from his Onyanko Club days.
I believe he's just crafted a very believable cover story for the way the group is set up, the songs they sing, and the way some PVs are done. I believe there is a bit of a parallel between girls that dress up in skimpy clothes and then get angry when people(guys) stare at them. "I'm just trying to dress like I want and be fashionable, not my fault guys can't stop staring at me when I'm half naked." -> "Its not my fault that the media and people read my lines about school uniforms and pranceing the girls around in underwear; and see them as being sexual."

this sounds like an amazing conspiracy theory.
again, if it's so sexual and designed to attract japanese trash, why isn't it popular? they should love this stuff! instead, no one really talks about it.
even among fans, as much as they like heavy rotation, they don't talk about the video that much either. it's more of the "yuko center song" or the "super catchy song."

at the end of セーラー服を脱がさないで the presumed girl in the song says she won't take it off. did you not get to that part?
what about NMB48's latest song, 純情U-19 with the iconic line 「鉄のパンツ」？

i wouldn't think it was BS if i didn't have those same thoughts while i was watching the video. i didn't think heavy rotation was sexy. they had too much makeup on for some reason, they're having pillow fights and doing kiddy stuff. i don't think of any of that crap when i think of something sexy. same with 制服が邪魔をする, it sounded evil, no one in the MV is smiling, it's really creepy. there's also a "making of" video for heavy rotation, none of the girls looked like they were crying or sad that they had to do this.

if i wanted to talk about them slutting themselves out, i'll point to ponytail to shushu, everyday kachuusha, or baby baby baby. they're in bikinis and for no good artistic reason. or i can point to their photobooks, or even some of their solo gravure DVDs. that stuff is whack.

but i don't think that heavy rotation or seifuku ga jama wo suru represent it.
nor do i think it's strictly targeted towards the older crowd. i'm sure younger, hormone-raged teenagers also enjoy it as well.
i showed heavy rotation to my 12 year old cousin. her comment - "i like their hair."

kainzero Wrote:i didn't think heavy rotation was sexy. they had too much makeup on for some reason, they're having pillow fights and doing kiddy stuff.

I pointed this out in another thread, but that music video definitely has a money shot in it. Sticky thick liquid all over a girl's face...? It's surely not all kiddy stuff.

kainzero Wrote:this sounds like an amazing conspiracy theory.
again, if it's so sexual and designed to attract japanese trash, why isn't it popular? they should love this stuff! instead, no one really talks about it.
even among fans, as much as they like heavy rotation, they don't talk about the video that much either. it's more of the "yuko center song" or the "super catchy song."

I put a heavy focus on the video as did maybe a few others, because I think its a solid example and I remember my own knee jerk reaction when I saw it. But my real quip with the group is the way the producers have engineered it.

Quote:i wouldn't think it was BS if i didn't have those same thoughts while i was watching the video. i didn't think heavy rotation was sexy. they had too much makeup on for some reason, they're having pillow fights and doing kiddy stuff. i don't think of any of that crap when i think of something sexy. same with 制服が邪魔をする, it sounded evil, no one in the MV is smiling, it's really creepy.

I actually haven't watched the PV, I generally don't watch AKB's stuff or follow them that close. If its true that there is nothing at all suggestive about the video then I could easily believe that Akimoto wrote the song and gave it the title he did, to garner the attention to it.

Quote:there's also a "making of" video for heavy rotation, none of the girls looked like they were crying or sad that they had to do this.

You'd expect them to show the girls not actually enjoying the video in a 'making of'? Really?

Quote:if i wanted to talk about them slutting themselves out

I want to avoid placing blame on the girls. Yes, they could say "No I don't want to do this because it makes me uneasy." but then they have no career and potentially dead end because many drop out of high school to keep up with the group; and Japan is not very forgiving for people that don't follow the stream. I place the blame on the label since they are pushing these things and probably "suggesting" strongly that it would be good for their future.

Quote:nor do i think it's strictly targeted towards the older crowd. i'm sure younger, hormone-raged teenagers also enjoy it as well.
i showed heavy rotation to my 12 year old cousin. her comment - "i like their hair."

I know younger teens enjoy it as well. I'm in the Japanese junior highs everyday, I see the AKB memorabilia that guys AND girls, alike carry around for their favorite AKB member(s). So there is no way I can argue that there isn't some bit of targeting at teens, just by the sheer fact that the girls themselves started as teens and rose to fame. However, I still stand by the belief that the group is still engineered to suck up the income of some of these older middle aged men. Either through show tickets or by buying tons of CDs.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Perhaps it's not the scene itself that is sexual, but because you perceive it to be so based on your own prejudices, biases, or value systems.

I thought the sticky thick liquid was syrup or tropical punch or something. What else could it be based on the context? What did you think it was?

Postmodernism doesn't make that look any less like semen.

(Thanks for giving me a context to actually be able to write that sentence.)

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Another question: If is it true that AKB48 is "marketing to old men", if it is true that the AKB48 are having their bodies and their looks "exploited" (if that word is too strong, then replace it with "utilized" for the money of the same old men, then if this situation is so detestable and the workplace so uncomfortable, why don't the girls of AKB48 quit their jobs? The girls are at least 16 years and older so the law (and society in general) has decided that they are old enough to make the decision whether to stay there or not.

Because many of them are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I said it in my earlier post that many of these girls drop out of high school to pursue their music career strongly. Japan is exceptionally unforgiving of people that break commonality. Hypothetically lets say they do quit because they can't take the fans and whats 'encouraged' of them; lets say they somehow can get a high school degree. Then they enter college. By time they finish college they'll be pretty old and will be suffering from the fact that many people younger them are job hunting. Most businesses in the current system won't look at them. They MIGHT be able to get by on their fame and get hired, but its hard to say and it would depend on how bad the media was when they quit. They definitely won't be able to work in the music industry though because of how slimily interconnected everything is in Japan. So there is very good pressure from this type of situation to prevent them from throwing it away, plus, many of them want to be famous and are probably heavily driven by their parents to perform and "deal with it."

The rest of your stuff I don't need to address because no one, including myself, has been arguing that AKB48 should be made illegal. Doing so would tread into the territory of "thought crime" I think. We're simply passing judgement on the producers/record label and debating the motives/intentions of their fans.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:So your assertion is that AKB48's true target audience is older middle-aged men (whose money it is successful in taking from)

And if those older men are all basically watching/going to shows and thinking to themselves while they watch one of the girls dance around: "Oh, Misaki! She's so hot today, mmm boy I'd love to slide my hand up that thigh and..."
They are more than welcome to think this, its not a crime to think/imagine this stuff. But most people, if they are repulsed at the idea of old men having sex with teenagers, are very VERY likely to find this same thing just as repulsive, hence creepy. If you think its perfectly fine then, hell, that's your prerogative, I'm not starting another debate about sex with minors. But a lot of people are repulsed by the idea.

EDIT:
As an example of "creepy" guys since it seems to need concrete examples, behold!

Creepy.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:So it's not about age, but more about the appearance and attitude of the female? So basically, it is advisable for males to aim for "older" looking females in order to avoid looking creepy? What about a 16 year old who looks like she's in her 20s?

Men should be aiming for women their own age or a bit younger. "Creepy" is going out with someone young enough to be your own daughter. Also "creepy" is obsessing over pop singers rather than real women.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:It might not be against the law, but if liking something (like younger females) is socially immoral or unacceptable, it might as well be (EG. no one is going to admit to it). For example, in Germany, one of the main players of WWII, it is very socially unacceptable to claim that the holocaust didn't happen to the point that it was made illegal. If there's strong enough lobbying, it might just happen for older males liking younger girls to be illegal. After all, who's going to speak out for them (the older males)?

It's not illegal to think or even say the holocaust didn't happen; it's illegal to state it in print or public speech. The law can never ever govern what you think.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Well, you can't really prove it either way. It's easy to make the claim that males view her videos because she is physically attractive (because she IS attractive).

She looks to me like an average awkward British 14 year old pre-pubescent girl, i.e. a completely non-sexual CHILD.

If 40+ year old Japanese viewers were really interested in anime music and para-para dancing, she'd also have an equivalent older female Japanese fan-base. She doesn't. Case closed.

vix86 Wrote:You'd expect them to show the girls not actually enjoying the video in a 'making of'? Really?

i know that takahashi minami didn't enjoy some of it. it's in the video. not to the point where she felt uncomfortable and it was extremely awkward but there were definitely parts of it she was like "omg this is bad." and the other members were teasing her about.
i wouldn't put it past them to include that kind of stuff in a making of either, based on what i see in japanese tv.

Quote:I place the blame on the label since they are pushing these things and probably "suggesting" strongly that it would be good for their future.

that's what i was talking about, excuse my language. =)
but yeah, i think there is stuff way worse that you can point to than those PVs.

Quote:However, I still stand by the belief that the group is still engineered to suck up the income of some of these older middle aged men. Either through show tickets or by buying tons of CDs.

show tickets are sold out everyday so that can't really qualify. some people signed up for the raffle every year and couldn't get a ticket.
but anyway, yea, the older middle aged men are fans and it's creepy. but i don't think 制服が邪魔をする or the へービーローテーション PVs would be good evidence of that.
it's also debatable on how much of the fanbase they contribute to. we don't have sales figures and it's only word of mouth based on concert footage, handshake event footage, etc.


@tzadeck;
sticky clear liquid?
are you talking about itano tomomi? i thought that was cake/cupcake frosting.
it was kind of hard for me to imagine a money shot when everyone in the room is female. whose money is it? =)
(to be honest i didn't even think of that. maybe i'm just ignorant.)

when it comes to gender equality in japan, i'd rather see them work harder to equalize salaries and positions, get rid of long standing social conventions (like the 後輩 pouring drinks for 先輩 except in the case of a girl, who has to pour drinks for everyone), get rid of the "mandatory" unpaid overtime that makes it impossible for women to develop outside hobbies or take care of kids. i think the only reason that older men fantasize about these younger girls is because the outlook for adult women in Japan is pretty bleak. they can't get good jobs, they can't get married without having to quit their career, etc. it turns a lot of them into gold diggers because they don't have much of a choice because of how awful their system is. and when it comes to gold, well, high school students are cheaper and easier to manipulate.
that's my theory...

qwertyytrewq Wrote:That's not the fault of AKB48, that's a problem with the economic system itself.

probably the first thing i've ever agreed with from qwerty. =)

qwertyytrewq Wrote:I don't see how any of the above is different from any other country.

Because it is different. In the US you can get a degree and generally, even if you are a bit old, still land a job after a bit of work. And I mean a real job at a company that employs you full time and you can expect to get promotions. This is not the case, especially when you also include the fact that these are women. Japan is still quite unequal in gender employment.

There are also plenty of articles out there talking about how many college students won't even graduate from school--as in they go to their professor and ask them to flunk them--because they don't have a job lined up after school. Why? Because being unemployed or working a 派遣 job for a year looks bad and no company want to bother hiring 'those' people. Business ARE that fickle in Japan. I've known many of these students which actually did this and have talked to teachers which had students request to be failed so they can't graduate.

So most girls are stuck with the prospect of maybe becoming famous if they just put up with being drug out and sexualized and dealing with their fans which enjoy ejaculating on their hands and getting them to touch it; OR, quitting and hoping you can find some way to make it in the real world. I suspect many girls don't even consider this or realize this till its too late, nor do their parents probably worry about it because they are just as caught up on the prospect of getting rich and famous too.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Who are these most people? Do you have a survey? Did you ever ask an old man regarding this? Preferably done anonymously like on the internet, because they don't answer with their own opinions, only the socially acceptable one.

Also, we're not talking about minors. We're talking about AKB48 which I believe are 16 and over, which is not a minor.

Many of the AKB members started out minors, plus as its already been noted, one of the sister groups is made of a lot of young girls.

As to "most people?" I assume you mean "MOST of the people that find this creepy."
Lol, if you seriously are trying to suggest that 75% of people would go "Suuuree, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a 46 year old taking a 15 year old home, having a nice dinner, and then getting a little some'thin-some'thin after that." Because I didn't realize I needed a survey for something that seems about as clear as stating the "Sky is blue."

just for fun i pulled some footage from a tv show that aired recently. you can see what the fans look like for an NMB48 show.

http://imgur.com/vkMKf
http://imgur.com/7pyEc
http://imgur.com/ImwOP
http://imgur.com/So7hc
http://imgur.com/ElAYz

(i'd think that if these fans wanted to be more appreciated by the girls they wouldn't look so unkempt and dirty, haha)

vix86 Wrote:So most girls are stuck with the prospect of maybe becoming famous if they just put up with being drug out and sexualized and dealing with their fans which enjoy ejaculating on their hands and getting them to touch it

honestly, the life of an idol is not that bad. you get to go on trips everywhere, eat good food for "gourmet reports," meet people across the country and around the world, meet celebrities, do crazy things like skydiving and bungee jumping for the sake of entertainment, wear nice clothes, do improv comedy and be yourself on tv shows...
dealing with terrible fans is terrible, but there's so much more benefit.

kainzero Wrote:@tzadeck;
sticky clear liquid?
are you talking about itano tomomi? i thought that was cake/cupcake frosting.
it was kind of hard for me to imagine a money shot when everyone in the room is female. whose money is it? =)
(to be honest i didn't even think of that. maybe i'm just ignorant.)

http://nights4saturn.files.wordpress.com...08s159.jpg
Really? Reallllllly?

Lololololol. It's funny to me that people are arguing that this is just my imagination.

But, then again, I'm not taking this thread seriously at this point anyway...

kainzero Wrote:(i'd think that if these fans wanted to be more appreciated by the girls they wouldn't look so unkempt and dirty, haha)

I think the general stereotype of geeks and otaku alike is they sometimes lack the social values that others might have, which tends to extend to not keeping up small things like brushing, washing, and combing your hair ('Bedhead' is fashion style though so you can't critique it in Japan like you could in the US).

Quote:honestly, the life of an idol is not that bad. you get to go on trips everywhere, eat good food for "gourmet reports," meet people across the country and around the world, meet celebrities, do crazy things like skydiving and bungee jumping for the sake of entertainment, wear nice clothes, do improv comedy and be yourself on tv shows...
dealing with terrible fans is terrible, but there's so much more benefit.

I didn't mean to make it sound like "oooh the poor idols, they have to perform and meet fans, what slave work they suffer!." I would be interested to know what they make in money though; the average popularity girls. I've heard that a lot of artists don't make as much money as people think they do. Its decent income but they aren't pulling in millions. I've heard this a few places but haven't ever seen any stats to back it up. On same hand, they don't live an easy, posh life though (AKB members), there's quite a bit of work involved I'm sure and a lot of it, physical.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:I haven't studied in-depth but isn't youth employment very high right now, compared to the past? To the point that not only do the older generation (we'll call them baby boomers) have most of the full-time jobs, not only are the baby-boomers working longer, but the baby-boomers are even taking the casual jobs (which is usually considered the domain of the youth like college-goers). So, assuming the youth and the old are on opposite sides, then the old seems to have the upper hand as far as job prospects go.

I'm going to assume you meant youth unemployment and are talking about Japan (although depending on who you talk to and what field you are referring to; the US has similar issues). Japan's current unemployment rate is at 4.6%. And the rate among 15-24yr olds is at 8.2%, 5.7% at 25-34. Those are pretty good numbers if you are interested in just whether someone has a job or not. The reality though is that many are employed in 派遣 jobs which are temporary and have no career advancement options. That said, I believe last year's figure for fresh-out-of-college job employment was that ~60% of undergrad graduates found employment at a company as a 正社員. The reason its not an issue and as highly covered as say maybe the US (and even then its not much), is because many people live at home with their parents till they get married. Its cheaper. That said its not really pertinent nor is the rest of what you said. All this aside, if you still still want to make the point that youth are not really employed then that does nothing but support my earlier point that the AKB members are stuck between a boulder and a hard place and hence why many might avoid to speak out or quit over the job. (Actually they have spoken out about the fans, there were links to sankaku posted some page or two back about the morally bankrupt fans)

qwertyytrewq Wrote:It's up to the individual to weigh those and make a decision on whether to stay or leave (or enter it in the first place).

Save for the fact that many are pretty young when they are thrown into this world. Many probably aren't/weren't aware of these particular issues when they got involved. Being an idol/singer is not a bad job. It'd be much better if weren't for the actions of their producers.

Quote:But because AKB48 deals with elements of sexuality with minors, then the entire puritan-mentality Western world heaps loads of criticism on AKB48 and the industry in which it is in, in disproportionate amounts.

Fixed it for you. Though I suspect some of the local feminists on the board might have much more to say in reply to this.

Quote:My job sucks and sometimes I might end up touching something worse than semen, where's the Western world to defend me from bad hygienic practices? Where's my own 20 page forum thread dedicated to me?

Boo-hoo, kids are starving and dieing in Africa! Why are we bothering with 40 year olds that want to bang 14 year olds when we could be talking about starving kids?!

because there is no socio-moral obligation to care for the starving kids.

kainzero Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Nice to see that double standards exist in both cultures.

no, because in america, the law still prosecutes them the same, regardless of the social attitudes. and usually the social attitude is by idiots on yahoo news or youtube.

vix86 Wrote:I had read that interview (transcript) when I was searching for the quote where Akimoto admitted that he had initially tailored the group toward single 40-something guys. And I found it amusing because its a bit believable if you are gullible. When the song title, 制服が邪魔をする, I actually had to make sure I wasn't mixing up another one of Akimoto's great songs: セーラー服を脱がさないで from his Onyanko Club days.
I believe he's just crafted a very believable cover story for the way the group is set up, the songs they sing, and the way some PVs are done. I believe there is a bit of a parallel between girls that dress up in skimpy clothes and then get angry when people(guys) stare at them. "I'm just trying to dress like I want and be fashionable, not my fault guys can't stop staring at me when I'm half naked." -> "Its not my fault that the media and people read my lines about school uniforms and pranceing the girls around in underwear; and see them as being sexual."

this sounds like an amazing conspiracy theory.
again, if it's so sexual and designed to attract japanese trash, why isn't it popular? they should love this stuff! instead, no one really talks about it.
even among fans, as much as they like heavy rotation, they don't talk about the video that much either. it's more of the "yuko center song" or the "super catchy song."

at the end of セーラー服を脱がさないで the presumed girl in the song says she won't take it off. did you not get to that part?
what about NMB48's latest song, 純情U-19 with the iconic line 「鉄のパンツ」？

i wouldn't think it was BS if i didn't have those same thoughts while i was watching the video. i didn't think heavy rotation was sexy. they had too much makeup on for some reason, they're having pillow fights and doing kiddy stuff. i don't think of any of that crap when i think of something sexy. same with 制服が邪魔をする, it sounded evil, no one in the MV is smiling, it's really creepy. there's also a "making of" video for heavy rotation, none of the girls looked like they were crying or sad that they had to do this.

if i wanted to talk about them slutting themselves out, i'll point to ponytail to shushu, everyday kachuusha, or baby baby baby. they're in bikinis and for no good artistic reason. or i can point to their photobooks, or even some of their solo gravure DVDs. that stuff is whack.

but i don't think that heavy rotation or seifuku ga jama wo suru represent it.
nor do i think it's strictly targeted towards the older crowd. i'm sure younger, hormone-raged teenagers also enjoy it as well.
i showed heavy rotation to my 12 year old cousin. her comment - "i like their hair."

Well, i certainly agree that there's more obviously sexual stuff that they've done.

However... i find it hard to take 制服が邪魔をする as anything but appealing to the guys involved in enjo-kosai.

Actually, with Akimoto's line on it, it seems like he doesn't even deny it here.

Anyway, here's why:
* The lyrics of the song. There's absolutely nothing unfavourable or sad about enjo kosai in them. Perhaps there is... that they're sad that nobody understands why they want to sleep with old dudes.
* The lyrics themselves say nothing directly about enjo-kosai or older men, but the video puts it in that setting.
* Yes, the video doesn't come across as "happy", but i think Akimoto knows that directly supporting enjo-kosai would be going way too far given the mainstream view on it. Again, it's the thing where he can appeal to the older guy audience and make them believe they are really desirable by these girls, while claiming plausible deniability and not destroying the wider image for AKB.
* The reason that it's not so popular is probably because enjo-kosai appears to have gone out of fashion now among middle school and high school girls now. Aside from that, i'm not too sure, because it actually seemed like one of their catchier songs...

It does come across as a work that's come out of the mind of a 50 year old man who likes young girls rather than a teenagers perspective, at least to me...

About your 12 year old cousin... honestly, most 12 year olds don't understand a lot of indirect sexual imagery, and will identify with other things in the video. I mean, there's tons of little girls in the 8-12 range who love dancing and singing, and will sing and dance to really quite age-innapropriate stuff in quite age-innapropriate ways, but they just don't understand yet that "dance move x" mimics "porn move x", and just find it fun instead...

There are a ton of porn tropes in ヘビーローテーション, right from the beginning, with the being spied on through a keyhole and being caught undressing, to the girls eating the same cake together (and their costumes), to the sperm-in-face thing, to the teddy bears & cute girly room. That's what i meant earlier when i said that Ninagawa Mika had used a ton of very stereotyped sexual imagery in that video... it's directly taken from well known porn themes.

You seem like a really sweet guy Kainzero though, and the type of person the AKB girls would probably be happy and comfortable with having as a fan

[Zgarbas]

Just a bit of input on "a 12 year old sees nothing, it's the adult who wants to see the money shot", it's a very common technique generally employed by all-ages family shows(think animaniacs). The sex jokes are very obvious to an adult, but will slide by a kid. Ideally they work for both audiences by being funny no matter how you take it.

Even if the show isn't focused on doubling up the entendres, a kid can just slip by some obviously wrong things (I mean i watched Dragon Ball when I was about 10-ish, and rewatching these days I wonder how I could have not noticed how sexual and wrong it is...). But I doubt this is the case here.

Point is, yeah, a kid won't get the money shot reference. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's not there for the older fans. (this reminds me of Melissa Cherry from the Onion movie, a shame the english version ain't on youtube).

Eikyu Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:EDIT: @Eikyu: what?? you can't rape a man by japanese law?!?

I'm not sure, but there was a quote that alluded to that on a website and when you read the law.... http://ja.wikibooks.org/wiki/%E5%88%91%E...7%E6%9D%A1

第177条
暴行又は脅迫を用いて13歳以上の女子を姦淫した者は、強姦の罪とし、3年以上の有期懲役に処する。13歳未満の女子を姦淫した者も、同様とする。

Basically: "He who fornicates with a girl using threats or violence, commits the crime of rape, and will be sentenced to 3 years or more of imprisonment."

Notice the use of the word 女子 (girl) specifically. So a guy wouldn't be included.

Wikipedia confirms this "日本では強姦罪の客体は女性に限定されている。男性の性的自由を侵害しても、強姦罪は適用されない。どんな場合であれ強制わいせつ罪が適用される。これは相手の男性が13歳未満であっても同様である。"

Guys can't be raped, even if under 13.

... i don't even have words for this.

i guess this is a little offtopic to AKB, but a lot of the problems with the sexualisation of the very young isn't just limited to girls, either, which is perhaps even more worrying if boys and men aren't even protected by law. Boys are also sexualised and sold in Japan in quite a similar way, it seems, and male hosts are certainly more famous there than in places like Britain.

While Johnny's Junior's site seems fairly obviously aimed at very young girls: http://www.bs-sptv.com/jrland/index.html

the individual sites of boy groups like "Sexy Zone", again says nothing but porn to me (actually, maybe less "porn", and more "Soho lingerie shop", but whatever, they're similar colours and typefonts): http://sexyzone.ponycanyon.co.jp/profile.html
whose youngest member is right now 11 years old. I mean, seriously, who is this supposed to be being marketed at? What the hell could ever be sexy about an 11 year old boy??

... i have been trying to research older womens attitudes towards this, and whether they do look at these boys in a sexual way or if it IS just for little girls, but it's really difficult to find anything on it, only the male homosexual stuff...

Tzadeck Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:@tzadeck;
sticky clear liquid?
are you talking about itano tomomi? i thought that was cake/cupcake frosting.
it was kind of hard for me to imagine a money shot when everyone in the room is female. whose money is it? =)
(to be honest i didn't even think of that. maybe i'm just ignorant.)

http://nights4saturn.files.wordpress.com...08s159.jpg
Really? Reallllllly?

Lololololol. It's funny to me that people are arguing that this is just my imagination.

But, then again, I'm not taking this thread seriously at this point anyway...

If it's just your imagination then it's just mine too. I had exactly the same thought when i originally saw the video. It's the style of these songs in general. Tonnes of sexual imagery wrapped in a decent amount of plausible deniability. Of course it's cake. How could it be anything else? Anyone who thinks it looks like something else just has a dirty mind...

Actually, i tend to think that stuff is clever. Like all those jokes on the Simpsons that adults can find funny on one level and kids can also find funny... for a different reason, thus avoiding the awkward question to the parents.

But anyway, why not just cut out the pretence and follow a group that consists mostly of AV actresses. Of course, they're solidly of age, and that's no fun, right?

zigmonty Wrote:But anyway, why not just cut out the pretence and follow a group that consists mostly of AV actresses. Of course, they're solidly of age, and that's no fun, right?

I couldn't help but laugh at this because I'm trying to imagine the board meeting that resulted in that idea.

Boss: "Ok we need a new idea for massive girl group, it has to be new and unique. Not just some other AKB group....ideas?"
A: "How about a group of ギャル？
Boss: "Nah, too cliched."
B: "Goth loli's"
Boss: "Too subculture"
C: "Porn stars"
*awkward moment of silence*
Boss: "Thats brilliant!! We can get them to sing and ***** at the same time! You're a genius!"

Jokes aside, the group, in their pic on that site, is clearly not of the same style as AKB. Obviously because they pull from AV/Gravure/Hostess, they are getting a completely different style of girl. After you ignore the fact that they all look like they are at least C/D cups, most have non-black hair colors; dyed most likely. Overall, there is just a notable difference in group makeup between the two. Though thanks for pointing this group out, I hadn't heard of this group and now I can tell my friends that "Japan has thought of everything now. They have porn actors that sing and sell albums."

vix86 Wrote:

zigmonty Wrote:But anyway, why not just cut out the pretence and follow a group that consists mostly of AV actresses. Of course, they're solidly of age, and that's no fun, right?

I couldn't help but laugh at this because I'm trying to imagine the board meeting that resulted in that idea.

Yeah pretty much heh. When i figured it out, i was like WTF... that's awesome! I didn't quite believe it until i typed a few of their names into google image search. Yeah... ok, confirmed... lol.

They actually still play the school girl angle, at least in this video anyway. But yes, they definitely weren't targeting "the 5th hottest girl in the class" or whatever AKB are supposed to be.

vix86 Wrote:Boss: "Ok we need a new idea for massive girl group, it has to be new and unique. Not just some other AKB group....ideas?"
A: "How about a group of ギャル？
Boss: "Nah, too cliched."
B: "Goth loli's"
Boss: "Too subculture"
C: "Porn stars"
*awkward moment of silence*
Boss: "Thats brilliant!! We can get them to sing and ***** at the same time! You're a genius!"

ahahahaha

zigmonty Wrote:But anyway, why not just cut out the pretence and follow a group that consists mostly of AV actresses. Of course, they're solidly of age, and that's no fun, right?

well, they'll at least pretend they're high school girls all hot for sensei's banana...

amazing comedy lol. They desperately need Akimoto's help with marketing.

Still, it is a pretty genius idea for a group...

EDIT: oh, you beat me to it

they need a higher budget for their videos...

IceCream Wrote:well, they'll at least pretend they're high school girls all hot for sensei's banana...

amazing comedy lol. They desperately need Akimoto's help with marketing.

Oh man this is ***** hilarious.

zigmonty Wrote:They actually still play the school girl angle, at least in this video anyway. But yes, they definitely weren't targeting "the 5th hottest girl in the class" or whatever AKB are supposed to be.

I can almost tolerate this. If I'm gonna watch a crappy girl-band, I want them all to be solid knockouts, none of this semi-cute crap.

IceCream Wrote:However... i find it hard to take 制服が邪魔をする as anything but appealing to the guys involved in enjo-kosai.

Actually, with Akimoto's line on it, it seems like he doesn't even deny it here.

Anyway, here's why:
* The lyrics of the song. There's absolutely nothing unfavourable or sad about enjo kosai in them. Perhaps there is... that they're sad that nobody understands why they want to sleep with old dudes.
* The lyrics themselves say nothing directly about enjo-kosai or older men, but the video puts it in that setting.

The PV doesn't really do that. The only thing that suggests 援助交際 is the end, when 前田敦子 meets with a faceless guy in a business suit, then time passes and shows a creepy smile.
All the other guys depicted in the video look like they're in their 20s... and if I can take TV dramas at face value, high schoolers tend to "play" with people in that age because they have money and they're young.

Quote:* Yes, the video doesn't come across as "happy", but i think Akimoto knows that directly supporting enjo-kosai would be going way too far given the mainstream view on it. Again, it's the thing where he can appeal to the older guy audience and make them believe they are really desirable by these girls, while claiming plausible deniability and not destroying the wider image for AKB.

I don't think there's anything that supports 援助交際。I interpret it as either stating that it exists, or given all the dark imagery, that maybe it's not so good after all.

Quote:* The reason that it's not so popular is probably because enjo-kosai appears to have gone out of fashion now among middle school and high school girls now. Aside from that, i'm not too sure, because it actually seemed like one of their catchier songs...

That song was included in a stage work called A3rd 「誰かのために」, a set list of 12 or so songs that they performed. The following songs from that set list are still seen as popular:

Bird:

誰かのために:

(this was their theme song when they led the charity effort after the 3/11 earthquake)

Quote:There are a ton of porn tropes in ヘビーローテーション, right from the beginning, with the being spied on through a keyhole and being caught undressing, to the girls eating the same cake together (and their costumes), to the sperm-in-face thing, to the teddy bears & cute girly room. That's what i meant earlier when i said that Ninagawa Mika had used a ton of very stereotyped sexual imagery in that video... it's directly taken from well known porn themes.

It's definitely me but I really can't see it. I don't know, when I think of sexiness I'm more likely to think of things like Rihanna's Umbrella (19 when she was filmed, which would put her at the same age as AKB during Heavy Rotation) or . In the Japanese side, maybe [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ4wpmNkCdo]AAA's 唇からロマンチカ。 So when I think of stuff like Heavy Rotation it's like... dumb stupid kiddy stuff, regardless of what they're wearing, and why I was unable to see the money shot for what it is.

Quote:You seem like a really sweet guy Kainzero though, and the type of person the AKB girls would probably be happy and comfortable with having as a fan

I don't know. There's always crap in the back of mind always wondering "Is this right?" as I watch them, as I casually discard all their bikini shots, watch another lip synched performance, and watched 13-year-olds suffer as they're forced to bungee jump in the name of entertainment. I'm already 27, and I'm not sure how long I can keep this up.
Ironically, when I explain to my Japanese friends that it's embarrassing to admit that I'm a fan of idols, they're like "No, no, it's perfectly normal, it's common for people in their 20s and 30s to like them. 40s might be pushing it though."
I've also seen how their typical fans act like. Even though they're not all middle aged old men, it's still reminiscent of Black Friday crowds. If hobbies are a thing that I can enjoy collectively as a group, it's getting more and more difficult to find those people.



I think that AV group was a one shot deal (excuse the pun).
But don't worry, you still have あやまんJAPAN.
Unlike Heavy Rotation where I'm wholly ignorant and slow to realize things, don't worry, I caught the imagery here.