Thora Wrote:*Snip*

To a point I agree with you on some stuff.

I think its important to keep in mind that the stuff concerning women dressing up like and acting like 10 yr (Gothic-Lolita fashion?) is a subculture movement and not really something prevalent throughout the culture. However, the high nasally voice thing is something that has been pretty prevalent in the culture up till recently. I think some girls have moved away from it though but I still encounter people that do it and most don't realize it consciously I think. There is a kawaii culture in Japan but I don't think its to the level that some people outside of Japan would believe.

Gingerninja Wrote:It truly is a blanket approach. Sexual innocence yes, I mean 2 members just graduated (read.. sacked) for *gasp* *shock* *horror* having boyfriends... /facepalm

It destroys the marketability of the girls if they have b/fs. Pretty hard to imagine you having a chance to date the girl and screw her if she already has a bf/. Just saying. This is a prevalent topic/issue with female seiyuu as well; especially if their agencies try to turn them into sexless idols. Its a bit of a double standard since many male stars/seiyuu tend to have g/f(s) and/or be married.

EDIT: SomeCallMeChris beat me to some of this.

Ah, come on it's not like I'd do that or I'm defending those geeks (in the pejorative sense) but I certainly think it's comical.

And as for how you sum up my views on children exploitation/prostitution, it only seems that way because it is a huge deal for you deshou?. For me I would say is just a medium deal.

@vix86 Like you said, not until you have seen how seemingly normal adult woman act sometimes is that you start realizing what the whole deal of kawaii culture is about. I am still learning to accept this part of the culture, sometimes I find it cute, attractive or seductive and other times I find it retarded and I don't like it.

vix86 Wrote:It destroys the marketability of the girls if they have b/fs. Pretty hard to imagine you having a chance to date the girl and screw her if she already has a bf/. Just saying. This is a prevalent topic/issue with female seiyuu as well; especially if their agencies try to turn them into sexless idols. Its a bit of a double standard since many male stars/seiyuu tend to have g/f(s) and/or be married.

I just find it funny when compared to Britain where a celebs love life is just everyday news and not even remotely a scandal.. Britain biggest recent girl band Girls Aloud.. Cheryl cole got taken to court on a racially aggravated assault charge just after they started (racial bit got dropped, but she still did community service).. and now she's a media darling.
Such an opposite.

^^ reading the above exchange between you two, actually has me dying of laughter inside.

zigmonty Wrote:It is what it is, and you'd have to be horribly naive to not understand how, well lets be frank, pretty much every straight guy is going to react to it.

With disgust and self-loathing?

Firing them because they have boyfriends is a really shitty thing to do. Basically, it makes it so that their record label and producer have control over a very personal aspect of their lives.

The appeal of being a member of AKB48 is fame and money (money both literally and in terms of sexual capital--e.g., if you've been famous as a sex symbol your chance of marrying someone rich goes way up). Their producer and record label control their access to fame and money, so they have a lot of power over the girls. The power relationship is vastly in favor of the record label.

The record label makes decisions based on what will make them more money, and they feel that limiting the group to single girls will make them more money by making them seem available to the fans. Since the power relationship is against the girls, who want fame and money, the record company gets to say 'it doesn't matter if you meet someone you like, if you date someone you lose the fame and money we can provide you.' It's not exactly just fame and money; it's that being in AKB seems like a once-in-a-lifetime possibility. So the girls err in favor of AKB over dating even if they want to date.

Controlling someone's dating life for money is certainly legal, and it may very well make money, but if you choose to make money that way you're a scoundrel. The people who own AKB are scoundrels.

(You could uphold an image of the girls being single without them actually making them be single, and without actually firing them if they are discovered to be dating someone.)

Gingerninja Wrote:I just find it funny when compared to Britain where a celebs love life is just everyday news and not even remotely a scandal.. Britain biggest recent girl band Girls Aloud.. Cheryl cole got taken to court on a racially aggravated assault charge just after they started (racial bit got dropped, but she still did community service).. and now she's a media darling.
Such an opposite.

Japan has these stories as well but the thing that needs to be kept in mind here is the market focus here. I wiki'd Girls Aloud since I don't know UK groups, and while I'm sure there are plenty of guys that have the hots for them, they probably aren't built up around a facade of being virgins and playing to the virgin crowd. The AKB members are. I could speculate for the reasons behind this, one of which being that someone once mentioned that AKB girls are picked as being the 2nd cutest girl in your high school class which you could imagine possibly dating.

I think the whole "being fired for having a b/f" also shows once again that the group isn't focused/targeted at teen girls. If it was, I think it'd make for great press because many of the teen girls dream about/have bfs, so its relevant to them. For some reason I just can't see it affecting teen boys that much in the same way it does their obsessive fans.

EDIT:

Quote:^^ reading the above exchange between you two, actually has me dying of laughter inside.

I'm glad you find some bit of the exchange amusing. I had written it somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Yes, it's a double standard, but isn't it like that everywhere else?. Man can be jerks but women have to be saints, otherwise it's a turn off. I think anyone should be able to realize this if they search their feelings honestly. Although my rational side condemns this archaic view, my more 'instinctive' side, does play by it somewhat. How? Well, even if I really like this girl, I would have some trouble reconciling my feelings for her with my inner prejudices, desires and expectations if I find out, that she fails at any of that.

To heterosexual men (and just to simplify the criteria): If there are certain female attributes that turn you on there must be other attributes that turn you off. For example, if you explore these feelings you may find out that not only you are turn off by certain kind of women, but in fact, the sole idea of sexual intercourse with one specific kind, completely disgusts you. Isn't that a form of indirect racism?.

Tzadeck Wrote:(You could uphold an image of the girls being single without them actually making them be single, and without actually firing them if they are discovered to be dating someone.)

Actually, that's what they do... they 'graduate' either because they are found out (by outside press) and their relationship is published or because they decide they don't want to hide their relationship any longer and わざと admit to it. And, while I sympathize with the harsh position they are put in, I cannot help but admire a certain romantic sentiment in throwing a valuable position away in order to have a single person as your significant other.

It's also not true that male idols are immune to this - it's just that male idols need to have a higher level of talent in the first place (which essentially boils down to the fact that women can be charmed by either sex, while men are only charmed by the opposite sex. I might qualify that, but... honestly, gay men love female musicians and actresses more than male ones. At least that's the stereotype within gay circles from my outside vantage, and true of those gays I've known. Lovers of Madonna and both Hepburns, every one. And it's well researched that women of any sexual orientation nonetheless respond well to the imagery of attractive women. There's some disconnect between 'entrancing' and 'sexually arousing' here, clearly.)


Ahem. In any case, male idols are sold in pretty much the same way, but because of the above, they have a less broad appeal and need more real talent to make up for it. Male idols also go through the wringer if they are found out, but partly because the talent bar to become a male idol is higher and partly because the audience is more forgiving of a male idol declaring his true love ... the opposite equivalent of my above admiration for female idols throwing away their position for love is more common in the opposite gender, apparently.

Well, not that I follow the scene -that- closely, but I have been vaguely following it for a long time. The real SMAP and the admittedly fictional events of 姫ちゃんのリボン have had a certain impact on my impression of the troubles out there for male idols... (and you should all be fans of both anyway ;p).

I think things have been easier for males than females to make a real continuing career, but that is at least in part due to the initial difference in a talent barrier, but also in part due to the fact that a female idol is more expected to become a housewife rather than pursue a continued musical career.

Quote:Isn't that a form of indirect racism?.

Wtf turvy... don't throw around charged hand grenades like that. No, judging women on their overt behavior may be many things, but it isn't -racism-. Behavior has nothing to do with biological background. It may be culturalism or ethnicism if those behaviors come from the person's background, but by and large it's judging women on their individual choices or their social position.

Part of what I meant by my parenthetical though is that it's easy to keep up a fake image. Even if a girl is found out by the press to be dating someone, she should just say publically 'No, I'm not actually dating him,' or a variation on the lie. Then she should be able to go on dating him while pretending she's not. Firing her is an extreme measure and is, as I said, controlling her personal life.

And, by the way, that would work just fine. If you know anything about politics you'll know why. Denials work wonders in public relations, even if all the facts go against them.

(Admitting it, わざと as you say, is another story)

@SomeCallMeChris
I'm a bit skeptical of the claim that male artists, in Japan at least, are followed and critiqued for having a g/f in the same way as women. It conflicts with the general image that I hear many people have of men, which is that all men are man whores and its expected that they'll have a mistress or three and "what're you gonna do? しょうがないな~." I could see the media holding these boy bands to some high moral standard where they must be prince charming, but at the same time...I hear girls call them イケメン all the time and go 「いらない～」 Why? Because they're playboys and they are the image of a guy that romps around. (To these women)
So I just can't see this image that society has, connecting with the image of the media/fans having a circus over the fact that "<X Johnny's group member> discovered to have a girlfriend!!!" and then "Member retires and goes solo."

Its way more potent with AKB and select seiyuu.

Tzadeck Wrote:And, by the way, that would work just fine. If you know anything about politics you'll know why. Denials work wonders in public relations, even if all the facts go against them.

In theory this would be great but the reality is that usually once its hinted that maybe there's something going, these obsessive fans will do all kinds of insane footwork to figure out it.

And I find in Japanese culture that even if its realized that something isn't the fact, the mere hint that it might have been is more than enough to have someone retire gracefully. Its outside this sphere of interest, but look at how the Prime ministers have been going in Japan for past decade. Also look at the politician who had to issue an apology and resigned from his post (I forget what) because he was slurring his speech at a conference. They said he was drunk but it was later found out that it was some medicine he was taking that made him drowsy (he hadn't realized this when he took them I think). It didn't matter though, the media had already painted him as a 'drunk politician' and the only proper thing to do was resign in apology for being inebriated on the job. This is exactly the same way with some of these positions in the media, facts or claims don't matter once the public has made up their mind. 建前 is important to Japanese.

turvy Wrote:Seriously, @IceCream, what's wrong with it? I can't see it. I was watching some videos on YouTube and I swear at first I was laughing my ass out, what the hell… but then, I was thinking, this has potential since (1) it's in Japanese and (2) it's dirty, wicked and fun lol.

don't do it!
didn't you read my post? the game is awful!
the only good part about it is the making of dvd because you get to see them mess around.

on dating games, akb is probably the only one that uses real people. as a game it's pretty stupid; you call up a girl, you go on a date, you make a choice between 3 dialogue options, 1 good, 1 alright, and 1 breakup. the girl then asks you to meet her somewhere, which you can also turn down. that unlocks the confession scene, where you can choose to accept or reject them. when you accept them they just say something like "yay" or "thanks" and then the credits roll.

i think some games can be good, or at least possess pretty good stories. according to that philosophical otaku book someone posted here, some of the writers actually move on to create award winning literature. but you're not gonna find that in this game.

for what it's worth there are dating games for girls and guys. i remember hearing that tokimeki memorial girls side 3 ds (a dating game targeted towards girls) was a big seller.

the 声優 "scandal" was exactly the reason why i think having the rule in place doesn't really matter. the 声優 didn't think that they were bound to those rules (and they're not, really) so when it was revealed that they were dating, the otaku only had themselves to blame. but apparently otaku can't handle that so they blame it on the poor women. (i'm not including hirano aya in this, that's a pretty morally bankrupt case just like jay chou.)

i just remembered that ヲタ aren't limited to akb or even japanese idols. it exists even within k-pop fans in japan.
http://aramatheydidnt.livejournal.com/3469702.html

kainzero Wrote:the 声優 "scandal" was exactly the reason why i think having the rule in place doesn't really matter. the 声優 didn't think that they were bound to those rules (and they're not, really) so when it was revealed that they were dating, the otaku only had themselves to blame. but apparently otaku can't handle that so they blame it on the poor women. (i'm not including hirano aya in this, that's a pretty morally bankrupt case just like jay chou.)

Hirano is the definition of attention whore. However a number of girls have been pulled in due to their agencies. The most recent cases have been the girls from K-On. Many of these girls are expected to maintain "saint" lifes. Blame the agencies. Its all about money.

vix86 Wrote:@SomeCallMeChris
I'm a bit skeptical of the claim that male artists,

I didn't say male artists, I said male idols, by which I meant イドル not 'pop musician'. Someone deliberately chosen an marketed for their looks and as an artificial personality assigned to them (which may or may not be based on their real personality). There are other musicians that are not in that vein and who do not have those constraints, it's true, and those 'regular' musicians are predominantly male. There's also an ever growing vague 'middle' between regular musicians and industry-manufactured 'idols'.

Quote:I hear girls call them イケメン all the time and go 「いらない～」 Why? Because they're playboys and they are the image of a guy that romps around. (To these women)

Hnnnn? イケメン means beautiful and well dressed and has nothing to do with behavior... 'playboy' is the -last- thing that an idol wants to be seen as. The idol wants to be seen as having one true and destined love that they will be forever faithful to. Well... there's a big difference, the male idol knows exactly who his true love is (surely someone in the audience!) and is pining for them but hasn't confessed yet (so the story goes), while the female idol yearns for love but doesn't truly know what it means, but surely someone in the audience will be the one to fulfill her yearnings (or so that story goes).

Quote:So I just can't see this image that society has, connecting with the image of the media/fans having a circus over the fact that "<X Johnny's group member> discovered to have a girlfriend!!!" and then "Member retires and goes solo."

Well... I can't think of or point to an example at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it's happened. It's certainly a stereotype of fiction about musicians, but I have to admit that I didn't really give a ... hoot... about male idols or pop musicians generally before I learned how to carry a tune and wanted to hear voices closer to mine. Except those SMAP songs, which have always been damn catchy, so you should love them, even if they are relics of an earlier age!

Thora Wrote:How these girls are portrayed in the media influences how girls and boys come to understand what girls are valued for and what is considered beautiful/sexy. This issue is similar to the current backlash against emaciated models/celebrities and photo manipulation b/c of their perceived role in anorexia and harmful unrealistic notions of beauty.

Related to sexualization of minors is infantilization of women. It's pretty twisted to have adult women acting like they're about 10 b/c that's considered sexy: that vacuous stare, acting dumb, girly frocks and pigtails, high voices, baby talk, submissiveness, etc. Sexual innocence is what AKB's image is all about. It's that strange combination zigmonty and IceCream commented on. The sexualization of girliness both reflects the lower status of women in Japan and perpetuates it.

Idealization of youth and bimbos isn't unique to Japan of course. (Ever notice how models are getting younger and younger? And that heroin chic "come bang me while I'm semi-conscious on a public washroom floor" trend was a bit troubling.) But the dumb girl thing is quite pervasive in Japan. "Kawaii" has a creepy side to it. The popular rape and school girl fetishes are symptoms of underlying societal problems. Normalizing or ignoring this stuff harms women.

In feminist literature, there's a well-known concept called "arrogant perceptions." This concept refers to perceptions of women that assume the perceiver is in a more privileged position than the woman who is being perceived. Most often, arrogant perceptions are made by white, middle or upperclass women and are attributed to women who do not belong to that demographic. Typically, arrogant perceptions involve judging other women on the basis of white, middle/upperclass morality and etiquette. What's worse is that arrogant perceptions are usually made with feminist intentions. Recently, we've seen this with white, middle and upperclass women deploring the status of Middle Eastern women and pretending to understand what their circumstances are like, despite objections from Middle Eastern feminists. Thus, arrogant perceptions occur when individuals privilege their own perspective of another over that very person's own perspective.

By looking down on certain ideals of beauty, such as thinness or innocence, are we not arrogantly perceiving too? Right now, there are societies in which largeness is the feminine ideal of beauty. In these societies, thin women are treated similarly to how large women are treated in the West. The same applies to innocence. Are these progressive attitudes? I certainly don't think so. Of course, society should not recognize harmful or unrealistic ideals of beauty; however, why direct our moral outrage at particular ideals of beauty rather than how we as a society think about beauty? Beauty, in all its forms and not just whatever is in vogue, should be recognized (although, I admit that the concept of beauty itself is problematic since it is exclusionary by nature, i.e. not everyone is beautiful, at least not in the same way).

Therefore, a woman who sincerely does not live according to what society perceives as adult-like, i.e. an innocent and child-like woman, should not be disparaged for being who she is. The problem is when women are forced into roles, such as the innocent girl or waif-like model. The roles themselves are not the problem.

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:It may be culturalism or ethnicism if those behaviors come from the person's background, but by and large it's judging women on their individual choices or their social position.

Chill out, I was just thinking… it does seem like if I am implying it is racist, but no, I don't mean it that way, I was literally asking, is it?. Anyway, it's an idea I haven't really developed but I am thinking there could be more to it than what you are saying.

Gingerninja Wrote:You can argue the flip side in that, are they influencing younger teens? or are they themselves just acting as a mirror of society, which of course then reinforces it, but if it was damaged to begin with.. then it's prob best just ripped out and started again.

hmm. I think I said the same thing: "The sexualization of girliness both reflects the lower status of women in Japan and perpetuates it." Folks seem think I suggested AKB is only the cause? Because they're so popular, though, they're likely to have an influence on youngsters. I'm afraid I'm not sure what you meant by the rest.

Quote:They are marketed as normal teen's in training to become stars.. not stars in themselves.

I think teen idols are seen as celebrities. At least they were. And girls want to emulate them. If we're meant to assess the music on some kind of teen artist-in-training scale, why is their music on the top of the charts?

Quote:Last time I checked AKB weren't selling rape fantasy.. so I can't see how that applies. Pretty big jump in the other direction to go from schoolgirl drama to rape...

Not really. First, I was referring to a general connection b/w the idealized powerlessness of women and the prevalence of the rape fantasy. It wasn't particular to AKB's depiction of girls. It plays a role, for eg, in men sexually assaulting women on trains, knowing they won't forcefully object.

Secondly, I don't think the AKB's material would have to depict a rape scene to trigger a mental association between sexy schoolgirls in super short school uniforms and coerced sex. Schoolgirl assault is massively popular in porn. It's also an extremely popular item on prostitution menus. It occurs in enjo kosai. There are schoolgirl hostess bars and theme bars for acting out schoolgirl molestation fantasies. It's in train station mangas. The issue has been in the media for years. I just think many guys catching glimpses of schoolgirl panties on stage in that sexualized environment will make the association even though it's not their fantasy. Maybe I'm just projecting, lol but I doubt it. (I suppose it's similar to linking a French maid outfit to naughty sex.)

I definitely haven't seen all the AKB shows and videos, and I didn't come across ones in which the girls act their age and show their intelligence. But even they represent x% of the material, it wouldn't compensate for all the other fake kawaii stuff. Not blaming the girls here. It is what it is.

Quote:Talentless by who's standard are we measuring here?
What 10 year old's do you know? I certainly don't know any that act that way.
There fan base may have started off mostly male, but it's beyond that now.. by a long shot.

Perhaps "talentless" is too harsh a word, but the singing and dancing I heard/saw just wasn't very good. And if it's lip synced, there isn't even the live sound excuse. Maybe their albums have better stuff? I'd acknowledge talent even if the music is not my cup of tea. And there are very talented 16-20 y.o. musicians, singers and dancers out there. But I don't think AKB is really about high quality music or dance. It's more about the girls, right? And AKB wouldn't be the first entertaining pop group which isn't enormously talented. =] I apologize if I've offended you as a fan of AKB's music.

By "10-year olds", I was trying to convey the childish behaviour and cutesy themes, costumes, props, mannerisms, sets, colours, etc. I appreciate that not every stage theme is bubblegum pink and they play different characters in comedy sketches, etc, but there is a substantial amount of kiddie stuff and feigned naivete. It's pretty ridiculous. Nah, I don't know any seductive 10-year olds. lol That's what weirds some people out, right?

I wasn't suggesting the fan base is exclusively adult male. The fact that a substantial adult male fan base exists is strange enough.

phew

turvy Wrote:Chill out, I was just thinking… it does seem like if I am implying it is racist...

When entering an already controversial thread, there are four things things -not- to bring up:
racism
the church of scientology
the catholic church
the nazi party

In fact, having listed them out loud, this thread is now doomed to an inevitable flamewar, I'm afraid. Sorry about that.

(More seriously - we're considering how Japanese people react to Japanese girls in Japanese society... the only racism to possibly be considered in this context is simply our gaijin selves judging from the outside and that would be a highly unprofitable conversation that would only serve to derail. Any other discussion of racism is simply throwing petrol from an entirely different debate into this relatively civilized riot where everyone is thus far pulling their punches.)

@Thora I'm not trying to be a troll but I think saying the singing and dancing isn't very good is quite simplistic. I like classical music but have friends whose opinions I highly respect in other fields who tell me it isn't very good. I just think aesthetic judgement is a field too objective for "not very good" to be a valid statement. Many educated people would call Pavarotti too loud to be good, whereas many other, equally educated people would call him awesome.

With regards to your point about school girl being a valid theme for years, I was much exposed to (hardcore/animal/snuff) porn as a child and yet it didn't effect my sex life or really effect my interactions with people - the people I was socializing with did that!!! I honestly think that what you view as a child isn't that important if you have good adult role models of both genders and that the way a child is brought up is a lot more important than what they see on TV.

Thora Wrote:I appreciate that not every stage theme is bubblegum pink and they play different characters in comedy sketches, etc, but there is a substantial amount of kiddie stuff and feigned naivete. It's pretty ridiculous.

Again, what justification do we have to look down on innocence and naïveté and dismiss them as improper for entertainment and as a perverted source of sexual desire? Numerous other attitudes and emotions are feigned, yet few cry out in moral panic about it (it baffles me that some people can so vehemently object to feigned innocence while, at the same time, being utterly captivated by feigned romance).

Nonetheless, I understand that feigned innocence and naïveté may influence how children and women are sexualized as well as how powerful they are perceived. However, such thinking is the very result of the patriarchal tradition and its concepts. Such thinking assumes that men are more powerful than women and children, and therefore cannot be negatively sexualized or made less powerful by feigning an attitude. Consequently, such thinking assumes women and children are weak, and thus require protection because otherwise they will be abused by men.

By encouraging this kind of thinking, the power imbalance that men have over women and children is further legitimized and increased and the roots of patriarchy only grow thicker. I should emphasize that I'm not arguing that laws and protections should not be put in place. I'm arguing that we draw our objections from the very same patriarchal tradition we are opposing when we criticize attitudes, such as feigned innocence or naïveté, as negatively affecting the status of women and children are how they are sexualized.

Tzadeck Wrote:Part of what I meant by my parenthetical though is that it's easy to keep up a fake image. Even if a girl is found out by the press to be dating someone, she should just say publically 'No, I'm not actually dating him,' or a variation on the lie. Then she should be able to go on dating him while pretending she's not. Firing her is an extreme measure and is, as I said, controlling her personal life.

And, by the way, that would work just fine. If you know anything about politics you'll know why. Denials work wonders in public relations, even if all the facts go against them.

(Admitting it, わざと as you say, is another story)

But think about what this defends... why should they have to lie about it to begin with?

Only to perpetuate the (again, fairly creep-inducing) myth that these girls could be the "fans" girlfriend. But the more normal, less creepy fans surely aren't going to give a damn either way...??

Well, i get why they peak at 16-22 now...

again, it's the idealising of the very young, innocent, virgin. If that's the idealised perception of beauty and sexiness, it's clearly going to cause problems regardless.

@vileru: The problem with innocence as the portrayal of ideal sexiness are multitude. It's not about looking down on innocence, everyone is innocent at some point. However! Sexual innocence on average lasts until a girl is 16. If the sexual ideal is innocence and naivety, it thereore ends up sexualising children.
Not to mention the fact that most 16 year old boys actually aren't all that into the innocence and naivety thing, it's very much more a trend among older men, which plays into problems like the enjou kosai and childhood prostitution problems.
The attraction to sullying some pure beauty also plays into schoolgirl rape fantasy, and assault of schoolgirls on trains, like Thora mentioned.
Finally, innocence as a sexual ideal, by it's nature puts women into a submissive position. The whole point about innocence and naivety is that that person knows and has experienced less of the world than their partner, putting them in the dominant position.

So, in short, yes, it's good to represent the very broad nature of sexual attraction. However, culture obviously shapes sexual attraction in a lot of people too, and when there's a whole host of real life social problems that arise from representing one type of sexual attraction, it might be better to limit or avoid it.

EDIT: btw, at least in Britain, this idealised innocence is very often a very obviously idealised perception of it too. So, on the one hand there's pressure to be and act innocent, but on the other hand, if you actually ARE quite naive, that's no good either... then you're clingy or care too much about a guy. From the other side, there's the pressure to be more sexy in an adult way, and not care about who you sleep with, just like guys like do. But then you're no longer innocent, so you're a slut. Often it feels like you can't win, whatever you do.
Better to be natural, and just how you really are, and not play up to male fantasies at all. It strikes me as that's probably the best option, just stop selling idealised perceptions of people through the media altogether... the comfortable position is generally in the middle somewhere...

I'm going to do a minor derail here and inquire about something since it seems opportune.

"Schoolgirl fantasy" has been brought up a few times now and leads me to an interesting question since the "school uniform" often becomes a kind of symbol for the mark of youth, innocence, and the oh-so-hint of taboo among many men.

Since I know there are a number of UK-ians here and there's a fairly high proportion of private schools (and public?) that require uniforms in the UK vs what the US has. Does a similar sort of thing run in the UK culture among men? Does the school uniform take on a meaning of youth?

Personally I hated wearing my school uniform, but then I went to a state school. Not of that private nonsense for me!

@ vileru

Quote:In feminist literature, there's a well-known concept called "arrogant perceptions."

If you want to talk shop, I'll leave you to Tzadeck and IceCream...

Quote:What's worse is that arrogant perceptions are usually made with feminist intentions.

Odd statement, no? If the feminist intention is separate from the arrogant perception, why is assumed to be a negative just b/c its a feminist intention (whatever that is.)

Quote:Recently, we've seen this with white, middle and upperclass women deploring the status of Middle Eastern women and pretending to understand what their circumstances are like, despite objections from Middle Eastern feminists.

Why would they "pretend"? Do you mean "assuming that they understand"

Quote:By looking down on certain ideals of beauty, such as thinness or innocence, are we not arrogantly perceiving too?

No, that degree of emaciation is a health issue. Health is universal.
I mentioned the physical example b/c it's easier to relate to and doesn't trigger the reactions that gender roles do. I don't consider weight and fake naivete as analogous forms of beauty. It was more about awareness of uncritical perpetuation of norms.

To me it's not actual innocence. More like intentionally acting like a child to fulfill some externally imposed demand for arrested development and submission. lol Yes, it's a consequence of power. But I don't really see how ignoring that fact would improve the situation.

Quote:why direct our moral outrage at particular ideals of beauty rather than how we as a society think about beauty? Beauty, in all its forms and not just whatever is in vogue, should be recognized.

I don't experience moral outrage.

Yes, that was the idea. In the class I mentioned, they try to highlight the undue emphasis placed on physical appearance, not simply substitute one form of beauty for another. (Better if your child can boost their self esteem in other ways.) And they discuss the power and motivations of advertising and the media.

Gender roles that perpetuate inequality aren't really about what's "in vogue". Men don't experience pressure to be all the "manly" things because they happen to be trendy right now. People believe many of these traits are essential. These beliefs will be in flux for a while as other things change. It's an ongoing interdependent process. If only we could just decide everything.

Quote:Therefore, a woman who sincerely does not live according to what society perceives as adult-like, i.e. an innocent and child-like woman, should not be disparaged for being who she is. The problem is when women are forced into roles, such as the innocent girl or waif-like model. The roles themselves are not the problem.

Never mind "sincerely" (without choosing?), I wouldn't disparage individual women or men for intentionally assuming gendered roles that are still to varying degrees expected. We're talking about social change. I do see the roles themselves as a problem, however. In some ideal future society, men and women will be able chose to be who they want to be without adverse consequence. But in meantime, both men and women face pressure to assume certain roles.

We can critically discuss the significance of those roles without passing judgment on individual choice. I certainly don't live in accordance with some future ideal. I've made certain compromises so that my family and I will be happy now. My choices though. No one made me choose for their benefit.

Besides, what I was describing was not a lovely woman with a natural child-like manner, but something more mutually manipulative for the sake of fame and money at the expense of womankind. That's also universal. ;-p

Gingerninja Wrote:Personally I hated wearing my school uniform, but then I went to a state school. Not of that private nonsense for me!

I'm pretty sure many Japanese students find the uniforms ださい and would rather wear what they want. In my town some elementary schools allow the kids to dress however they want, but its pretty much the standard now that after ES you wear a uniform in JHS and HS. But that wasn't really my question.

Do guys [in the UK] in their 20's-40's find girls in school uniforms very appealing because they are wearing the uniform?