what about sister groups like HKT48, whose members appear to be all in the age range of 11-16? (with an average age of 13). Are they marketed to the same ヲタ crowds too, or are they targeted specifically at younger girls?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HKT48

honestly, them singing heavy rotation seems a little much for that age group...

@Thora: I don't know about those kinds of stories in AKB, but wouldn't be surprised if they happened. A recent scandal involving AKB's Takahashi Minami's mother was unearthed, but somehow, they were able to suppress major news outlets from reporting it.

@IceCream: Except for "I touch you" which just sounds like terrible English, the lyrics for Heavy Rotation are really tame. Certainly nowhere near as bad as 口移しのチョコレート。
AKB started in 2005, which would put most of their 1st generation members at around that age group. It could be that they started with fans in their 20s and 30s, and as AKB grew up those fans became older.
ヲタ aren't necessarily limited to the middle aged men either, there are ヲタ in their 20s, there are even girl ヲタ。 AKB member Sashihara Rino is a ヲタ。

I don't know much about HKT so I can't really speak about them.
Akimoto Yasushi, the producer, has stated that his plans are to have many regions to have their own local group to support. For the most part, idols (both male and female) are picked from a young age so that they have time to train and develop and get in the public eye before peaking in the 16-22 range.

kainzero Wrote:There wasn't an official statement released, but rather, an interview was granted with the director, Ninagawa Mika, who had full creative control over the entire video. She's an award winning photographer.
If you go to her website, http://www.ninamika.com/ja/index.asp, it's pretty easy to draw parallels between her use of color in her photos and in the Heavy Rotation video. I have yet to watch her movie, Sakuran, but it seems like there she also believes in strong feminity, casting the controversial Tsuchiya Anna for her lead and Ringo Shiina to compose the music.
Because it parallels her earlier works, I don't think it's just your average slutty softcore video.

Ah! I knew i recognised the style from somewhere. I love that movie.

It may not be your average slutty softcore video but it's obvious that at best they were going for plausible deniability (or maybe appealing to multiple audiences). It is what it is, and you'd have to be horribly naive to not understand how, well lets be frank, pretty much every straight guy is going to react to it.

To take an example other than heavy rotation, look at this song. It's easy for them to claim it's simply about young love, etc. Just a song for girls of that age group to relate to right? The video is a weird combination of gyrating hips on stage and utterly innocent "what girls do when they're bored" shots.

Having said that, my reaction to it all is basically just a feeling that it's a little creepy (the marketing to much older men). At this point you'd have to be horribly naive, even as a 14 year old, to not know what you were signing up for. As long as security keeps them safe and they do something about the creepier fans (those "handshakes" mentioned earlier), i'm frankly pretty cool with it.

vix86 Wrote:

JimmySeal Wrote:I think you're both wrong AKB is heavily targeted at teenage girls, and successfully. I saw a teenager in Kinokunia excitedly showing her mom an AKB bikini calendar that she wanted and that made me kinda sad.

But yes, males are far and away the main target of the AKB marketing angle. Their exposure in print media is by far more prevalent in men's magazines and men's comic periodicals than in stuff aimed at females.

I strongly disagree with this. In its original incarnation it was very heavily focused on middle aged men, primarily the obsessive otaku type. The fact that teenagers happen to also like them is merely unintended consequence; but I would not put it past Akimoto to have planned it out like this.

So... which part of my post are you disagreeing with? Did I say that teenage girls were the original or only marketing target? What I said was quite the opposite of that.

I find it hard to believe that these publications would be aimed at anyone but teenage girls:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/40530...AJH95JBNJ2
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/40530...AJH95JBNJ2

And when Peach John did an edition of their catalog with some of the AKB ladies, the catalogs were sold in the women's fashion magazine section of the magazine racks.
LSFWhttp://blog-imgs-34.fc2.com/n/e/w/news02...153348.jpgLSFW

So I just don't see how anyone could claim that AKB isn't marketed at girls at all.

Regardless of AKB's main marketing focus, they are hugely popular with teenage girls, and their marketing team would have to be completely insane to miss out on that action.

A lot of the foreign fan base (not that we're directly targeted at) is upset by most of the suggestive stuff anyway.

The girls are most likely fully aware of what they are doing.. I mean what teenage girl isn't fully aware of what they're capable of? I can remember high school clearly enough to remember that.
Japanese girls mite seem younger in comparison mentally, but that's a cultural thing, they're still fully functioning people, genetically programmed the same as everyone else.

My biggest issue with the business model is the mental pressures, your friends are your rivals. You are voted on by strangers against your peers often at face value. and you need to appear perfect at all times in public, lest it cause an outcry. That's a tremendous amount of pressure for anyone, let a lone a teen girl, who statistically are shown to have more body issues etc than any other age group.

The sex image thing.. yeah, been there done that, signed every music act ever. That just gets discussed more because it's face value, and most people never check what's underneath.

Edit... I should probably point out somewhere I am actually a fan, I don't want to come across as wholly negative (incase it wasn't already obvious)

kainzero Wrote:口移しのチョコレート。

wow, lol, ok.

Yeah, so, after watching quite a few videos on youtube today, i realised a fair proportion of their stuff really is basically softcore.

i think the main reason a lot of people find it a bit creepy exactly is the marketing to different groups at the same time... that weird mixture of the innocent young girl side right alongside the softcore stuff. Like, overage softcore? No problem. Girl bands for tweens? No problem. Both at the same time? sliiiiightly creepy.

Starting them at 11 to peak at 16-22 is also kinda unnecessary, with extra pressures and problems. Why not just have one group for the younger audience and another for the softcore / older audience?? They might even get more sales that way...

@gingerninja: hmmm. I dunno, i think the mentality is a bit different as a teenager (especially as a young teen). Like, i might have thought "cool, guys think i'm pretty and nice and are attracted to me" rather than "cool, random guys are gonna be jizzing all over this, and my manager's gonna make lots of money off my body in the process". I wouldn't have even got that far at 11-12 though, and some of them do start as elementary students. Seems a bit like grooming to me...

EDIT: i don't mean to misrepresent them... they clearly do a lot of non sexual stuff too, not all of it is like that, by any means.

What videos did you see? I'm guessing "Ponytail to Shushu", "Everyday Kachuusha"? Maybe "Baby! Baby! Baby!"? The controversial "Seifuku wa Jama wo Suru"?

My favorite video is Beginner which has none of those things. Too bad it wasn't released for a while because it was deemed too violent.

I don't think their market is just girl tweens and middle aged guys, though. Aren't we forgetting about the male teenager as well? How about the adult woman? (I actually know a couple, strangely.)

Kids seem to like them too... there was a variety show episode where they had different members walk down a popular street to see how fast people would recognize them. One of the girls, Kashiwagi Yuki, was first recognized by a little girl, who walked up to her and said 「AKB48が好き！」




I'm surprised no one has brought up the fact that 99% of their performances are lip-synched. That's my biggest problem with the group and perhaps the biggest insult to the music industry as a whole.

IceCream Wrote:Starting them at 11 to peak at 16-22 is also kinda unnecessary, with extra pressures and problems. Why not just have one group for the younger audience and another for the softcore / older audience?? They might even get more sales that way...

Well in a way I guess that's what the sister groups are for. SKE has a younger image than AKB, NMB's image is more comedy based due to their part management by the Yoshimoto group, SDN are the adult aimed group. As for HKT, they haven't really done anything yet, so their image has yet to be shown, but probably similar to SKE's.

IceCream Wrote:@gingerninja: hmmm. I dunno, i think the mentality is a bit different as a teenager (especially as a young teen). Like, i might have thought "cool, guys think i'm pretty and nice and are attracted to me" rather than "cool, random guys are gonna be jizzing all over this, and my manager's gonna make lots of money off my body in the process". I wouldn't have even got that far at 11-12 though, and some of them do start as elementary students. Seems a bit like grooming to me...

As I have never been a teenage girl, I'll have to take your word for it :p I don't think we'll really find out everything until they die off and the expose all books start appearing. That might make for some interesting reading.

kainzero Wrote:I'm surprised no one has brought up the fact that 99% of their performances are lip-synched. That's my biggest problem with the group and perhaps the biggest insult to the music industry as a whole.

The Japanese music industry? It's all lip-synched.
Well, of the concert videos I've watched anyway, there's simply no way anyone is dancing that athletically and singing that smoothly.
There is some chance that the musicians who don't put on an acrobatic display or chorus-line show are actually singing, I suppose. There also are, of course, musicians who -aren't- just idols and have some talent besides hitting the notes written for them, but the idol scene is all about putting on a show. If they didn't lip-synch they'd have to sacrifice in the choreography.

@SomeCallMeChris:
that's what i thought at first, but... it's not all like that.

momokuro's new single, mouretsu:

AAA Charge and Go:

Namie Amuro:

even AKB's DiVA sub unit:

JimmySeal Wrote:So... which part of my post are you disagreeing with? Did I say that teenage girls were the original or only marketing target? What I said was quite the opposite of that.

I was disagreeing with this...

Quote:I think you're both wrong AKB is heavily targeted at teenage girls, and successfully. I saw a teenager in Kinokunia excitedly showing her mom an AKB bikini calendar that she wanted and that made me kinda sad.

Of course you then turn around and go 180 and say that its really targeted at the older male base. I was simply saying that the teenage crowd is either a) unintended consequence or b) Very cleverly crafted marketing that hoped to eventually build the group to a level that would have that customer base.

If it came to be that the agency had to choose between the 2 fan baases: teenage girls and creepy otaku. The agency would (I'm sure) choose to go with the creepy otaku because they have more disposable income and obsessive hobbies.

btw, what's oshi/oshimen?

I wanted to respond to an earlier post:

turvy Wrote:I think most of them are beautiful and others super hot.

What do you think of their singing? acting? dancing? What do you like about the music? ;p

Quote:Another thing, the price they pay for becoming 'sexual objects' is not that expensive for them given that there are thousands of girls casting and dreaming about becoming an AKB or whatever.

I'm not sure the fact that pre-teen and tween girls want to become AKB is a measure of whether or not sexual objectification is a problem. I doubt they turn their minds to it.

While individual girls may very well experience forms of direct harm, I think when people talk about sexual objectification, they have in mind a broader notion of harm. Harm on a societal level. It isn't harm that's easily quantifiable, so it's not often something legislated against directly. Instead, it's something that generally improves as the status of women improves and with education and awareness.

How these girls are portrayed in the media influences how girls and boys come to understand what girls are valued for and what is considered beautiful/sexy. This issue is similar to the current backlash against emaciated models/celebrities and photo manipulation b/c of their perceived role in anorexia and harmful unrealistic notions of beauty. (I recently learned that these topics are now part of the jr high school curriculum where I live - including analysis of advertising.)

Related to sexualization of minors is infantilization of women. It's pretty twisted to have adult women acting like they're about 10 b/c that's considered sexy: that vacuous stare, acting dumb, girly frocks and pigtails, high voices, baby talk, submissiveness, etc. Sexual innocence is what AKB's image is all about. It's that strange combination zigmonty and IceCream commented on. The sexualization of girliness both reflects the lower status of women in Japan and perpetuates it.

Idealization of youth and bimbos isn't unique to Japan of course. (Ever notice how models are getting younger and younger? And that heroin chic "come bang me while I'm semi-conscious on a public washroom floor" trend was a bit troubling.) But the dumb girl thing is quite pervasive in Japan. "Kawaii" has a creepy side to it. The popular rape and school girl fetishes are symptoms of underlying societal problems. Normalizing or ignoring this stuff harms women.

Quote:Why is people so sweaty about the whole sex issue over and over again?

sweaty? sex issue? Do you mean why do some people find AKB sexually titillating? Or why are some people troubled by the sexual content? Or why are some people interested in the issue of equality [of the sexes]?

"Over and over?" I think some people in other threads were more taken aback by certain arguments trying to justify child prostitution, exploitation of children or sexual assault than anything. It doesn't require any particular level of outrage or shock to observe that talentless AKB girls prancing about in bikinis acting like seductive 10-year olds for adult male fans is weird stuff.

kainzero Wrote:What videos did you see? I'm guessing "Ponytail to Shushu", "Everyday Kachuusha"? Maybe "Baby! Baby! Baby!"? The controversial "Seifuku wa Jama wo Suru"?

those, but also there's lots of stuff like this around this area of youtube:

the kissing stuff posted earlier, the personal questions asked to members on their show under lie detectors, etc. Softcore's probably the wrong word, but certainly clearly aimed at a sexual audience..

EDIT: Thora pretty much sums it up perfectly...

kainzero Wrote:momokuro's new single, mouretsu:

Owww, my ears. They're not lip-syncing but they are out of breath and off key.

Quote:AAA Charge and Go:

That's pretty evidently live singing and the choreography muted to match.
I like the way they choreograph it with switching off members pausing while the others continue dancing. But are they really idols? I mean they're in T-shirts. Do they even have a line of merchandise (beyond posters and T-shirts, I mean... photo books and lunchboxes and jewelery and whatnot)?

Quote:Namie Amuro:

Yes..... but　安室奈美恵 is especially talented. She's also not really an idol anymore but has graduated to be a 'real musician' - she's got a career for life. Even if she does something tremendously stupid and gets blackballed, she has the talent that she can hop on a plane to Korea or the USA and start over.

Quote:even AKB's DiVA sub unit:

I don't know, that's locked private.

Anyway, nitpicking to defend my position aside, yes... I do know that what I said is not really true of 100% of the pop music scene, probably not even 100% of the idol scene (depending on where one draws the line between 'idol' and 'real musician', but I don't keep up with the coverage enough to know where that stands in the general opinion.)

My real point was, it's so prevalent that criticizing AKB48 for it is, so to speak, shutting the barn door after the cows are gone, slaughtered, packed, and sold to Americans as Kobe Beef for extortionate prices.

You can argue the flip side in that, are they influencing younger teens? or are they themselves just acting as a mirror of society, which of course then reinforces it, but if it was damaged to begin with.. then it's prob best just ripped out and started again. They are marketed as normal teen's in training to become stars.. not stars in themselves.

The problem being with broad generalisations on this topic, is that they don't match what you say, because there are so many, and they are marketed so many ways. It truly is a blanket approach. Sexual innocence yes, I mean 2 members just graduated (read.. sacked) for *gasp* *shock* *horror* having boyfriends... /facepalm
but the whole airhead thing doesn't stick when some members are sold as being dumber than a bag of rocks.. while others for their intelligence.
Last time I checked AKB weren't selling rape fantasy.. so I can't see how that applies. Pretty big jump in the other direction to go from schoolgirl drama to rape...

Thora Wrote:It doesn't require any particular level of outrage or shock to observe that talentless AKB girls prancing about in bikinis acting like seductive 10-year olds for adult male fans is weird stuff.

Talentless by who's standard are we measuring here?
What 10 year old's do you know? I certainly don't know any that act that way.
There fan base may have started off mostly male, but it's beyond that now.. by a long shot.

IceCream Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:What videos did you see? I'm guessing "Ponytail to Shushu", "Everyday Kachuusha"? Maybe "Baby! Baby! Baby!"? The controversial "Seifuku wa Jama wo Suru"?

those, but also there's lots of stuff like this around this area of youtube:

the kissing stuff posted earlier, the personal questions asked to members on their show under lie detectors, etc. Softcore's probably the wrong word, but certainly clearly aimed at a sexual audience..

The dating games... a very odd part of Japanese culture I'm not a fan of. Like I said in an earlier post, maybe if they'd actually go speak to the other fans instead of being little oddo's they wouldn't have a market for crap like that.

IceCream Wrote:those, but also there's lots of stuff like this around this area of youtube:

the kissing stuff posted earlier, the personal questions asked to members on their show under lie detectors, etc. Softcore's probably the wrong word, but certainly clearly aimed at a sexual audience..

ah yes, the dating game. i played the first one thinking it would help my japanese. it didn't. and it was awful. the second one put them in bikinis and made it more depraved. i didn't buy that one. i learned my lesson.
that kissing stuff is terrible too. at least they're all adults in that commercial though, lol.

the lie detector stuff is usually comedy though, where they try to make fun of the members. things like "you actually shave your mustache in the morning" and stuff.

@thora: oshi / oshimen / 押しメン　is your favorite member of the group. because there's so many, that's usually the first question that gets asked if you're a fan.

i'm also unsure if akb is the problem or the reflection of the problem.
some of their girls are bigger than others and if you read some of the comments on their videos or on 2ch they just keep calling them fat, ブタ, etc.
akb in bikinis is nothing new... it's been going on with idols and models for a long time now. it just turns out that since akb is big now, they're getting the target painted on them.

there was also a scandal where 2 members had to bow out because the internet found out that they had boyfriends, and as part of the no-dating rule they had to leave. i think that rule is ridiculous, but then i thought even more and that even if the rule wasn't in place, japanese society would still come down on them hard for having boyfriends.

i really think japanese society needs to solve gender equality in the workplace and in social situations first before they can turn their attention to akb. there's also the child pornography law, where it's illegal to distribute but not illegal to possess. and any of the junior gravure idol stuff (going from U-15, U-12, U-10) is pretty disgusting and makes akb look like saints in comparison. if you even watch one of those videos you'll need a shower soon after.

What are the dating games?

Hmn, I'm not sure I want to step into the middle of what's starting to become a heated debate, but... idols ( = attractive individuals with at least the ability to sing in tune, who are sold as a commodity ) have for the past twenty years or more been automatically disqualified from 'idol' status by having a boyfriend/girlfriend. When you do so, you have to stop selling the fantasy of your availability and go on to another career. If you have enough musical talent you could be to be a 'regular' pop star... it's a trial though finding out if you're still popular without the idol promotion machine behind you.

While AKB48 may be marketed as 'stars in the making', I think if you have the top two spots on the charts you're not 'in the making' anymore... although because of the relatively brief trajectory that qualifies for 'idol' status I suppose you could say they are, although I'm doubtful about how many of them will make it with solo careers if they continue to pursue music. Their true level of talent is unknowable, I think, as their material is all chosen for promotional reasons. With self-selection for material that they have a real emotional connection to, that actually suits their voice, etc., who knows what they can do.

turvy Wrote:What are the dating games?

Apart from a blight on the gaming industry? :p lol.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/AKB1-%E3%82%A2%E...922&sr=8-1

Like most games of the genre I'm lead to believe, except it's with AKB. Not worth your time or money unless you happen to like that genre of game.

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Hmn, I'm not sure I want to step into the middle of what's starting to become a heated debate, but...

Just dive right in, it's a thread for discussing anything to do with the subject, not just the hot button issues, even if you just want tv show or song recommendations.

kainzero Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:those, but also there's lots of stuff like this around this area of youtube:

the kissing stuff posted earlier, the personal questions asked to members on their show under lie detectors, etc. Softcore's probably the wrong word, but certainly clearly aimed at a sexual audience..

ah yes, the dating game. i played the first one thinking it would help my japanese. it didn't. and it was awful. the second one put them in bikinis and made it more depraved. i didn't buy that one. i learned my lesson.
that kissing stuff is terrible too. at least they're all adults in that commercial though, lol.

the lie detector stuff is usually comedy though, where they try to make fun of the members. things like "you actually shave your mustache in the morning" and stuff.

oh are they dating games? Yeah, not doing those might also help with eliminating some of the weirder fans lol.

the lie detector one i saw was where Matsui Jurina was asked 「かわいいメンバーを見るとキスがしたくてしょうがなくなる」. Asking anyone stuff like that under lie detector on national TV is more than a bit off, but a 14 year old?!

But yeah, i think these things are a reflection of bad stuff in society, it doesn't cause it. But it does help to normalise it. Again, it's not the girls' fault, it's the managers...

Just innocently wondering, how far can you get in these dating games? ROFL

IceCream Wrote:the lie detector one i saw was where Matsui Jurina was asked 「かわいいメンバーを見るとキスがしたくてしょうがなくなる」. Asking anyone stuff like that under lie detector on national TV is more than a bit off, but a 14 year old?!

That's quite a specific example lol, it's quite well known that she does that. The other members even go so far as to complain about the fact she does it so often. So yes it's to embarrass her, but given the context, it's not any kind of revelation or titillation thing, it just is what it is... asking her why the hell she does it.

turvy Wrote:Just innocently wondering, how far can you get in these dating games? ROFL

...yep, this kind of proves the point. Guys who think it's funny to jizz their hands up before shaking hands with AKB48 girls are also the guys who like the dating games.

All the management needs to do to get rid of creepy fans is find out what turvy likes and not do it, clearly...

@gingerninja: oh, ok lol. it's not quite sooo bad as i was thinking then...

Seriously, @IceCream, what's wrong with it? I can't see it. I was watching some videos on YouTube and I swear at first I was laughing my ass out, what the hell… but then, I was thinking, this has potential since (1) it's in Japanese and (2) it's dirty, wicked and fun lol.

well, @turvy, i don't know anything about dating games (though the clips i saw seemed fairly voyeuristic / creepy in themselves). But since you also clearly find sperm filled handshakes to AKB girls funny, as well as thinking that exploiting or prostituting children is no big deal, i'm guessing that deterring people like you might be the management's priority if they want to eliminate creepy people from the fanbase.