Whenever I make a sentence in Japanese, its usually just pretty straightforward. I think what I want to say, and then I try to say exactly that.
However when reading or listening to sentences from a native speaker, there is a bit of flair, random bits of extra stuff that I just don't do in my own sentences.

Probably the simplest example of this is the explanatory の/ん.
I get what it means, I understand it when I see it, but I have no idea when to use it myself. It it just some random thing that I can toss on whenever I answer a question?
But there are a lot of other things, like だっけ or けど.
For example, here is a question answer pair from a book:

山田さんのお別れ会、何時からだっけ？
明日の８時だと思うけど。

So far, my best understanding of this だっけ is that its sort of like "hey, I ought to know this but I forgot, remind me please?"
But then the けど in the response... what is this? I see it ALL the time, but I have never found any explanation as to how, if at all, it changes the meaning of the answer.

To say things in your target language and sound naturally you need to switch your thinking to your target language. You should have a well trained set of expressions and vocab that you use to express specific ideas, notions, feelings, etc. How to get there? With a lot of practice, immersion, memorisation and time.

でしょう！ Maybe try having some kind of character in mind to imitate would help. There seems to be a strong link in Japanese between speech patterns and character. I'm sure it is exaggerated in Japanese media, but those stereotypes are a good guide to who uses what when. Are you bold or timid, are you serious, laid-back, playful, etc.

That 'random extra stuff' is there to convey how you feel about what you're saying. Pay attention to characters in tv shows, manga, and novels to see what speech patterns indicate what. This is where reading/watching for pleasure is important. There is more than just vocabulary and grammar to be absorbed from native material!

As for grammar:

Disjunctive けど with remainder of sentence elided:
『...と思うけど』　...I think, but (I could be wrong)

何々だっけ is like you described, kind of rhetorical "... wasn't it?" kind of question.

Read, read, read, listen, listen, listen. In time, appropriate, natural chunks of language will just start coming to your mind just when you need them.

Don't make up your own sentences.
You'll just end up making sentences that only a gaijin would make....

Watch LOTS of Japanese dramas. It give you the chance to listen to native
conversations and pick up phrases/expressions that only a native speaker
would know and use in conversation.

The have EXACT subtitles, which means it's the exact words the actors are
saying. Read the summaries and pick a show that you like. Sometimes they
have dramas based on manga and bestseller novels.

Japanese subtitles are here:
http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/subtitles.php#Japanese

Current season J-Drama descriptions are here:
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Currently_Airing_JDrama

Downloads are here:
http://www.d-addicts.com

chamcham Wrote:Don't make up your own sentences.
You'll just end up making sentences that only a gaijin would make....

Well that's kinda silly, if you are saying I should memorize every possible sentence that could ever be said...

Which is one of those age old fallacies in the studying of learning another language because there are an infinite amount of sentences that can be said in any language. Furthermore, most sentences we hear aside from the typical set expressions are sentences that we have never heard before. Yet, we still understand them. Whether a particular phrase is used correctly by a foreigner or not is a different issue that has to be fixed by the learner via experience. Putting words together that are not acceptable to natives should be addressed appropriately as well. If you really notice, there is a great degree of variation as to how the individual says something. Here in just the past few days I have been writing a Japanese speech. I have gotten suggestions by two native speakers: a teacher and a foreign exchange student. Both speakers did not suggest the same things and did not give the same explanations to the problems. Some of the suggestions made by the student were rejected by the teacher. The reason for this inconsistency is puzzling for me as my exchange student friend is actually a Japanese language nerd in his own right.

I learned much from the experience, and I hope to be able to write more and see how well it is received. Yet, it hasn't been long ago since my own essays in English had a lot of red marks on them. So, language is a life-long challenge. It is true that you should always listen to Japanese in-action as much as possible, and it will aid you in how you phrase things without intensive thought.

I just think that defining the issue is rather impossible. Most people can after a few writings tell who wrote it. Why is that? If everyone in the room came from the same community, perhaps even the same family, and spoke the same language as monolinguals, should there not be great consistency with how all members phrase things? No, for we are all different to a degree. I'm not saying this as a reason or excuse for flat out misuse of language. No one wants to purposely or accidentally do this in a different language. However, there is a point, which I think is when you are nearing that native comfortableness in a different language that you go with your gut on what you're saying.

I believe that chamcham (and sure I did) referred more to collocations than to complete phrases.

Certainly it is necessary to devote collocations to memory, and I am not an advocate by any means to abuse these phrases as they are pretty much set in stone. The only tricky part about their usage is not necessary their meanings but knowing the situations where they can be used.

I find Japanese collocations to be much more interesting than English ones.

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Arupan Wrote:Claiming that no non-Japanese can master the language is like claiming that its users are omnipotent.

Nobody claimed that in this thread.

If the choice is between learning the widely used phrases by native speakers or inventing your own, I would choose to mimic the natives. For not so widely used phrases, it doesn't hurt to read or listen to native media. For the extremely rare phrases, since no one would know better, go ahead making up your own.

Arupan Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:Don't make up your own sentences.
You'll just end up making sentences that only a gaijin would make....

Watch LOTS of Japanese dramas. It give you the chance to listen to native
conversations and pick up phrases/expressions that only a native speaker
would know and use in conversation.

I can't really agree. Firstly, you could watch Japanese dramas and anime every day and still suck. And secondly, there are a lot of people who can create proper sentences out there. Claiming that no non-Japanese can master the language is like claiming that its users are omnipotent.

How long of a time span do you have in mind here?

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With at the very least 1-2 hours everyday?

I never come down on people without trying to motivate or support my claims, but I'm getting pretty tired of going on and on about input based learning on here. I'm sure some others might be tired of me too ( ´ー｀). So get out, man!

You could listen to Japanese for hours every day for ten years and still suck at Japanese. I think everyone who has lived in Japan has met that guy who has never really studied but has lived in Japan for years and years, and consequently can't speak any Japanese.

Basically, learning is active. If you want to sound more native-like through lots of input, you have to find ways to use what you learn from that input in an active way. It won't happen simply because you hear lots of input.

Arupan Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:Don't make up your own sentences.
You'll just end up making sentences that only a gaijin would make....

Watch LOTS of Japanese dramas. It give you the chance to listen to native
conversations and pick up phrases/expressions that only a native speaker
would know and use in conversation.

I can't really agree. Firstly, you could watch Japanese dramas and anime every day and still suck. And secondly, there are a lot of people who can create proper sentences out there. Claiming that no non-Japanese can master the language is like claiming that its users are omnipotent.

That's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm not saying that gaijins can't master Japanese.
I'm not saying that you should memorize every sentence.

Rather than "memorizing" you should be "understanding".
If you want to sound like a native speaker, you need to say how they do things in action.

What I mean is that when you watch enough dramas you get a better idea of how
native speakers use their language. Even grammatically correct Japanese can sound
weird to Japanese people because they don't use the language in the same way.
For example, Japanese spoken by Americans often sounds weird because they
unconsciously mix American patterns of speech in their Japanese sentences.
In many cases, they don't use their grammar the way we would, even when we know the same rules.

Yes, watch enough drama and you'll get a better idea of how native Japanese
use their language. For example, word and grammar choice. Since you have
complete Japanese subtitles, you can really drill down and analyze things (but you
don't have to) at your own pace.

Instead of becoming a passive listener, in your mind, you should be an active speaker in the drama.
Something that really worked for me is that randomly I would pause the drama at moments.
Then, I would ask myself, "how would I answer that question? Or "what would I say"? Then, I'd unpause
to hear what the character says. Then I pause it again and ask myself "what did he/she just say" and more importantly, "what didn't they say and why?". It helps you to become the character and imagine yourself in their world. This really helps when you come across similar situations in real life.
This will really help with conversational skills, even if you don't have an native japanese friends.

Also, a lot of what makes your Japanese fluent consists of what you DON'T say, which might sound weird. Sometimes gaijin say too much when a few simple words can suffice. This requires a sense what's going on in other people's heads. Those are the kind of things you get from constantly listening to native speech.

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Arupan Wrote:Why do you refer to yourself and other non-Japanese as "gaijin"? That alone makes your thinking quite biased.

Because I am a gaijin ("foreigner") and I'm referring to foreigners learning Japanese (as opposed to natives learning Japanese in Japan). When I say "natives", I mean anyone born and raised in Japan regardless of their ancestry. There's no bias at all.

Tzadeck Wrote:You could listen to Japanese for hours every day for ten years and still suck at Japanese. I think everyone who has lived in Japan has met that guy who has never really studied but has lived in Japan for years and years, and consequently can't speak any Japanese.

Basically, learning is active. If you want to sound more native-like through lots of input, you have to find ways to use what you learn from that input in an active way. It won't happen simply because you hear lots of input.

I wasn't thinking that watching dramas would be the only thing you do. I don't think that's what the TS should have been doing either, but I think it sounds like he could do more of the likes of it.

And I still can't take examples of people who've lived in Japan for X years but don't know anything as a case against input learning, we've discussed "gaijin bubbles" and shutting oneself out of its environment on here before. Yes, you can be "listening" to a language and have it go completely over your head, everyone who's been watching anime with English subtitles before getting into Japanese knows that.

Arupan Wrote:Why do you refer to yourself and other non-Japanese as "gaijin"? That alone makes your thinking quite biased.

I suppose you're thinking it's a slur. The other day I saw this video on youtube, some guy who lived in Japan and thought it was equal to "nigger".

Talking to my Japanese GF, I've began realizing how often we say things in English that don't make literal sense at all. Also, there are a lot of words that have hidden connotations that a foreigner wouldn't pick up on.
Examples from last night: "communion" (as in, the blood and body of Christ), "enabler" (inviting a recovering alcoholic to a party with an open bar).
I wish there were a list of these types of things. Also, "collocations" that don't make literal sense, and the best explanation for why it's said that way. More than just, "I don't know, that's just how we say it! Deal with it!" lol

Zarxrax Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:Don't make up your own sentences.
You'll just end up making sentences that only a gaijin would make....

Well that's kinda silly, if you are saying I should memorize every possible sentence that could ever be said...

no its true. the point is not to memorize every sentence. the point is to learn to use the sentence patterns that correspond to the new language environment. you need to learn to say things differently, in a very specific way... but beyond that it's just a pattern and there are only so many commonly used ones. it's not so much to learn.

if memorization is a problem for you vocab will be a bigger stumbling block.

moreover I could probably create a new thread on this but won't because there are already too many.

i know some people like to read a lot of debito and get worked up over the term gaijin. this isn't selma and people need to chill out. japanese people use this word in a way that is generally descriptive and not descriminatory. it can be the latter but usually isn't, so to go and take offence, where 99% of the time it wasn't intended, is rediculous.

...a sphincter joke would go here but i couldn't be bothered...

Tzadeck Wrote:You could listen to Japanese for hours every day for ten years and still suck at Japanese. I think everyone who has lived in Japan has met that guy who has never really studied but has lived in Japan for years and years, and consequently can't speak any Japanese.

Basically, learning is active. If you want to sound more native-like through lots of input, you have to find ways to use what you learn from that input in an active way. It won't happen simply because you hear lots of input.

Exactly. The only difference between those who gain more from input and those who don't, is interest in learning, and so being active (in one way or another, for example paying attention to how and when things are said...), just like students in a class room, some may benefit greatly and don't need to study much at home (because they connect what they learn with other related things, deeply think about what they hear, pay more attention, etc.), while others may gain so little, because of the lack of interest, that the lecture becomes practically useless, even though you can say that both types pay attention to the lecture.

undead_saif Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:You could listen to Japanese for hours every day for ten years and still suck at Japanese. I think everyone who has lived in Japan has met that guy who has never really studied but has lived in Japan for years and years, and consequently can't speak any Japanese.

Basically, learning is active. If you want to sound more native-like through lots of input, you have to find ways to use what you learn from that input in an active way. It won't happen simply because you hear lots of input.

Exactly. The only difference between those who gain more from input and those who don't, is interest in learning, and so being active (in one way or another, for example paying attention to how and when things are said...), just like students in a class room, some may benefit greatly and don't need to study much at home (because they connect what they learn with other related things, deeply think about what they hear, pay more attention, etc.), while others may gain so little, because of the lack of interest, that the lecture becomes practically useless, even though you can say that both types pay attention to the lecture.

i think he's saying that you need to speak... listening alone won't get you to natural speech patterns. i thought it would, ajatt says it will... turns out we were wrong and i wasn't able to say anything until i made some native friends and started talking. the up side of this is that when you do finally turn that corner, your progression accelerates rapidly.

undead_saif Wrote:Exactly. The only difference between those who gain more from input and those who don't, is interest in learning, and so being active (in one way or another, for example paying attention to how and when things are said...), just like students in a class room, some may benefit greatly and don't need to study much at home (because they connect what they learn with other related things, deeply think about what they hear, pay more attention, etc.), while others may gain so little, because of the lack of interest, that the lecture becomes practically useless, even though you can say that both types pay attention to the lecture.

Are you saying that you think people learn absolutely nothing from listening and reading Japanese? That's not was Tzadeck's saying, he's saying that you also have to actively use what you learn to retain it. Or am I wrong, Tza?

dtcamero Wrote:i think he's saying that you need to speak... listening alone won't get you to natural speech patterns. i thought it would, ajatt says it will... turns out we were wrong and i wasn't able to say anything until i made some native friends and started talking. the up side of this is that when you do finally turn that corner, your progression accelerates rapidly.

It was ages ago I read the AJATT articles, does he really say that you'll sound natural as soon as you start speaking? Because I agree with you, you will need to speak a lot in order to speak well, but I found that the foundation of a high comprehension ability and being used to the language is making it incredibly easy to improve my speaking compared to other learners. I only had my first real conversation a few weeks ago, and of course my pronunciation was awkward and my active vocabulary felt lower than I thought it was, but with every day of casual talking it's been improving incredibly as you're saying. I think of it as it getting up to where it should be already, but I know I sound naive.

Also we have to remember what AJATT claims to be, being exposed to the language all freaking day long for 18 months is a lot more than an hour or two for three years. Maybe you did something like that though? Sorry for carrying this off topic, you don't have respond of course, I'm rambling.