vix86 Wrote:

caivano Wrote:I think the way society treats the role of women in Japan is a huge factor in a lot of Japan's problems, economically and socially. If a country is underutilising half of the human resources and overworking the other half it's obviously inefficient and unhealthy.

Partially, but it really comes down to outdated work ideals, where people believe 6 day work weeks and 10 hour days will increase the production of a company. It doesn't. I don't believe people are heavily overworked in the sense that they have mountains of stuff to do, they are merely overworked in the amount of time they spend at work pretending to be busy half the time.

True. All studies show that Japan is actually surprisingly "unproductive" in terms of output per hour, and not just in the mom-and-pop stores. But "effectiveness" is valued more than "efficiency" in Japan.

Irixmark Wrote:

vix86 Wrote:

caivano Wrote:I think the way society treats the role of women in Japan is a huge factor in a lot of Japan's problems, economically and socially. If a country is underutilising half of the human resources and overworking the other half it's obviously inefficient and unhealthy.

Partially, but it really comes down to outdated work ideals, where people believe 6 day work weeks and 10 hour days will increase the production of a company. It doesn't. I don't believe people are heavily overworked in the sense that they have mountains of stuff to do, they are merely overworked in the amount of time they spend at work pretending to be busy half the time.

True. All studies show that Japan is actually surprisingly "unproductive" in terms of output per hour, and not just in the mom-and-pop stores. But "effectiveness" is valued more than "efficiency" in Japan.

What does effectiveness mean in this case? It would seem a company that is not efficient is also not effective.

vix86 Wrote:Partially, but it really comes down to outdated work ideals, where people believe 6 day work weeks and 10 hour days will increase the production of a company. It doesn't. I don't believe people are heavily overworked in the sense that they have mountains of stuff to do, they are merely overworked in the amount of time they spend at work pretending to be busy half the time.

Yep that too.

kusterdu Wrote:

Irixmark Wrote:True. All studies show that Japan is actually surprisingly "unproductive" in terms of output per hour, and not just in the mom-and-pop stores. But "effectiveness" is valued more than "efficiency" in Japan.

What does effectiveness mean in this case? It would seem a company that is not efficient is also not effective.

What it means is simply that if you make your workers work 12 hours to produce the same output as a company that just makes them work 8 hours, your company is effective (gets the product done) but not as efficient.

It's a stereotype, but in Japanese companies the hours you put in are considered more important than getting the job done in the least amount of time. So getting things done at any cost (effectiveness) is prioritized.

Not that it's very different here in the UK... but it is certainly different in the US and Canada (the more efficient you are, the more work you get... but you also are rewarded), and from what I've heard in Sweden, too, because people value their free time and don't want to hang around the office until 8pm just to be seen pretending to do work.

Not that you need a lot knowledge of Japanese to figure out how stupid that system is... but perhaps some people aren't expecting that kind of work life.

Also, without a positive view of work and the company, one can neither be efficient (work/time) neither be truly effective (do good job).

So, one needs lesser working hours, enough payment, enough respect and paid vacation days. I'm SURE at that point employees will VOLUNTEER to work an extra hour for free.

TBH, this also requires an honesty and loyalty toward work on the employee's side, maybe there should be some effective evaluation system that can filter 'good' employees from 'bad' ones, which will higher the standards and so the 'bad' ones will have to enhance their attitude toward work.

Edit: What I'm trying to point out is that not only 10 working hours aren't necessary, but also 8 hours can be lessened, maybe 6?

kusterdu Wrote:

Inny Jan Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:the puns are strong with this one...

LOL, that's the best pan I've heard ever, no need to SRS it.

It sounds like you guys are trying to take a swipe at me, but I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

no offense intended. i just thought it was funny you were talking about the thread derailing when someone brought up women's train cars.

undead_saif Wrote:Also, without a positive view of work and the company, one can neither be efficient (work/time) neither be truly effective (do good job).

So, one needs lesser working hours, enough payment, enough respect and paid vacation days. I'm SURE at that point employees will VOLUNTEER to work an extra hour for free.

TBH, this also requires an honesty and loyalty toward work on the employee's side, maybe there should be some effective evaluation system that can filter 'good' employees from 'bad' ones, which will higher the standards and so the 'bad' ones will have to enhance their attitude toward work.

Edit: What I'm trying to point out is that not only 10 working hours aren't necessary, but also 8 hours can be lessened, maybe 6?

I feel like in the US there's a work revolution coming on, given companies like Zappos. I've heard of different concepts like "work wherever and whenever you want, as long as you get the job." I found the book Drive to be full of examples of these companies.

On the other hand, I wonder if you actually did make all working hours optional, if Japan would still show up for overtime...

Irixmark Wrote:What it means is simply that if you make your workers work 12 hours to produce the same output as a company that just makes them work 8 hours, your company is effective (gets the product done) but not as efficient.

It's a stereotype, but in Japanese companies the hours you put in are considered more important than getting the job done in the least amount of time. So getting things done at any cost (effectiveness) is prioritized.

I'm not sure effectiveness is a good word for this. The quality of work produced by workers working 12 hours a day is going to suffer as well as the efficiency.

Call it what you will, but low quality of production or workmanship is not what would associate with Japan.

Irixmark Wrote:Call it what you will, but low quality of production or workmanship is not what would associate with Japan.

You really only see the lack of efficiency in industries outside of manufacturing. Japanese service industries are notorious for this and I'm pretty sure this is what most people are referring to.

You'll never see factory workers in Japan sitting around running the clock to show their commitments to the company.

I think Japanese banks must be the best (or worst) example. Long working hours in the back office, but ridiculously short opening hours. Absurd numbers of forms and paper-based transactions in 21st century. Nonetheless they get the job done somehow (after screwing up terribly in the 1990s).

Irixmark Wrote:I think Japanese banks must be the best (or worst) example. Long working hours in the back office, but ridiculously short opening hours. Absurd numbers of forms and paper-based transactions in 21st century. Nonetheless they get the job done somehow (after screwing up terribly in the 1990s).

well there was that olympus accounting scandal...

Irixmark Wrote:I think Japanese banks must be the best (or worst) example. Long working hours in the back office, but ridiculously short opening hours. Absurd numbers of forms and paper-based transactions in 21st century. Nonetheless they get the job done somehow (after screwing up terribly in the 1990s).

I've always wondered why large international banks, such as HSBC and Citibank, have such little presence in Japan. Given their efficiency and more versatile services, Japanese banks would not be able to compete with them. There is no Japanese bank that has 24hr ATMs throughout the world sans ATM fees. Furthermore, there is no Japanese bank that does not charge a fee for withdrawing on weekends. I have no idea why international competition hasn't made any headway here. I can only guess that there must be some protectionist measures in place.

Just not a lot of money in personal banking in Japan. On the flip side, HSBC, Citibank, and a bunch of other big banks have significant IB/CB and other operations in Japan. Just not personal banking.

vileru Wrote:Furthermore, there is no Japanese bank that does not charge a fee for withdrawing on weekends.

My J-bank (UFJ) doesn't charge money for withdrawals ever and has 24/7 atms. It depend on what kind of account you open and how much money you have in it. My post office bank also doesn't charge money on weekends but the ATMs are available for short hours unless I go to one of the major offices.

HSBC just withdrew from retail banking in Japan.

Japanese banks are pretty inconvenient but I don't think that UK banks are good either tbh. They offer way more options and are ahead on technology etc but the customer service is crap and I don't trust any of them to not try and rip me off with fees at every opportunity.

kitakitsune Wrote:Just not a lot of money in personal banking in Japan. On the flip side, HSBC, Citibank, and a bunch of other big banks have significant IB/CB and other operations in Japan. Just not personal banking.

I considered this possibility, but if it was the case that there is no money in personal banking in Japan, then what incentive would Japanese banks have to stay in the personal banking business? However, maybe the idea has some merit. There may very well be some money in personal banking, which is why Japanese banks already in the business aren't going anywhere, but the risk/reward ratio for new entrants is not enticing enough to make their efforts worthwhile.

Edit: I should point out that I initially dismissed the idea that there is no money in personal banking in Japan at the first sign that it may be wrong, even though it made a good deal of sense after I gave it some thought. Obviously, I was biased towards there being some protectionist policies in place. I wouldn't ordinarily point this out, but I think it's worth emphasizing since it's common for foreigners in Japan to make similar mistakes (cf. Debito). As much as some people would like there to be some conspiracy against foreigners, most inconveniences have much more plausible explanations.

Disclaimer: This is idle speculation.

It could be that the reason there is no international banks prominent throughout Japan's personal banking realm may be bar of entry. Japan in past decades has been very effective at keeping out international competition by creating artificial bars of entry in the law. Like maybe you need X amount of resources/customers/whatever before you can officially operate within a sphere of Japan. Another example might be like "No company can operate without a domestic sponsor" type deal. There could be numerous obstracles put in the law and regulation that force any non-domestic company to meet. I believe China operated like this for awhile, they used the "domestic sponsorship" thing. Lets not forget too that some of Japan's oldest and largest companies (Zaibatsu) were banking companies (UFJ-Mitsubishi).

[s0apgun]

In Japan, I am under the assumption that they don't use very many credit cards/loans and they mostly rent. Those two things are huge reasons why banks would not find Japan a lucrative market.

s0apgun Wrote:In Japan, I am under the assumption that they don't use very many credit cards/loans and they mostly rent. Those two things are huge reasons why banks would not find Japan a lucrative market.

Meanwhile with Britain's national obsession with home ownership and property speculation it's all gravy for the Banks. 8-)

s0apgun Wrote:In Japan, I am under the assumption that they don't use very many credit cards/loans and they mostly rent. Those two things are huge reasons why banks would not find Japan a lucrative market.

People use/have credit cards in Japan. Shit I have one. You just can't use them everywhere like you can in the US.

Loans I can't comment on too well but they exist as well. I think the process for getting a loan is some what more drawn out though to be honest. Japan lacks large credit report agencies so its not easy to tell if someone may be a risk. I suspect banks tend to base their decision for loaning on your current assets, employment, and position where you are employed. Remember that Japan has never fully recovered to prosperity from their prior assest bubble collapse. Loans/Lending dried up when the bubble collapsed.

The Japanese banking market remained very closed to outside investment until the mid-1990s, when the Hashimoto government tried to open up the system with the so-called Big Bang, a reference to the 1980s reforms in Britain.

In brief, there are two reasons: First, most Japanese companies that are listed on stock
exchanges have a "main bank", and loans from this main bank have long comprised the largest source of external funds. This means that a foreign bank entering the market could take deposits, but few profitable firms to lend to.

Second, the Ministry of Finance actively discriminated against foreign bank entry by favouring domestic banks, passing information about foreign competitors on to domestic banks, delaying licensing processes, etc.

Even today Japanese banks and MOF often close ranks when it looks like a foreign firm could buy out a Japanese bank, most recently with Aozora. That's not just protectionism or economic nationalism for its own sake, I would think, but also because banks still provide cozy positions for MOF bureaucrats via 天下り when they retire.

The only "success" story is 新生銀行, which started when a failing Japanese commercial bank was bought by a US private equity firm. Shinsei's better service is credited with the improvements (no matter how slight) in customer service offered by Japanese retail banks.

I remember that in 1999 you couldn't get cash at any ATM on weekends except at Citibank in Shibuya. The ATMs at 7-Eleven where a major change, although last time I was in Japan my bank card didn't work there any more. A common experience is also that your foreign credit card doesn't work in Japan, which sort of defeats the purpose of having one at all...

I remember running out of money in Fukuoka one Sunday in 2001. (I had come up from Nagasaki to do some shopping, and stupidly turned in my return ticket when I got off the train.) I was looking around so desperately to find anywhere I could get some cash -- I seriously thought I was going to be spending the night on a park bench. It's silly that it should come to that in one of the most technologically developed countries in the world.

(I told my story at the train station and they turned up my ticket, so the ending was a happy one, but I was pretty worried there for a while.)

It would suck if the more Japanese you know the less enjoyment of Japan you will have when you get there, I hope when I go to akihabara or mikupa , the experience will be the apex of all orgasms.

Irixmark Wrote:That's not just protectionism or economic nationalism for its own sake, I would think, but also because banks still provide cozy positions for MOF bureaucrats via 天下り when they retire.

Amakudari was "reformed" about 5 years ago. If I'm not mistaken they put in place laws that made it difficult for politicians to retire into positions they had direct connection to while in office. No idea if this applies to bureaucrats and I'm sure it doesn't eliminate it all. I honestly don't believe anything actually changed too much, but it was interesting to see a be bit of reform take palce.

Quote:The only "success" story is 新生銀行, which started when a failing Japanese commercial bank was bought by a US private equity firm. Shinsei's better service is credited with the improvements (no matter how slight) in customer service offered by Japanese retail banks.

This. is. hilarious. Shinsei has some of the better policies (like they reimburse ATM fees at conbinis I believe) and generally better customer service. Still can't get those ***** bank hours working properly though!!! Still, it stands out as a shining example of why protectionism can be such a bad thing. The frustrating part is that many of the hurdles you mentioned wouldn't be removed even if Japan completely signs in the TPP because foreign banks would still get bugged down in bureaucratic red tape.