Does anyone know what the situation is for finding PhD funding for say, mathematics in my case but otherwise science in general in Japan, assuming top academic performance+prestigious university?

I haven't heard of any information on this so I was wondering if anyone had any idea. Would I be right in guessing there's more variety of funding sources than just MEXT at PhD level?

From what I've been told, you pay out of your own pocket. Regardless, doing your PhD in Britain is a better move financially and career-wise. Not a single mathematician from a major Japanese university has received the Fields medal (however, a mathematician associated with the Kyoto Institute for Advanced Study, a research institute, has been awarded the Fields medal). On the other hand, various British universities have produced Fields medalists. However, if a particular Japanese university is the top university for one of your AoS, then that's a different story...

I’ve talked to various people about this and read around a bit.

If you can get MEXT I recommend it. Most universities mention that they provide financial support to students if you read around on their sites. Its pretty similar to what I know about grad school in the US where your advisor will generally provide you with a stipend and you work as a TA/RA. Schools can waive tuition too. Then there are the fellowships and also JASSO funding as well for privately financed students.

The kicker though is that you have to get in, which means you generally have to take an entrance exam. A lot of schools now have separate entrance policies to account for international students but they still require some sort of test generally. The separate entrance method can also depend on what program you are going in; some may not have any. Generally if a Uni has a int'l friendly entrance system it usually means their programs are either in partial English or full English.

Its worth noting though that the MEXT scholarship doesn't let you enter as a normal student. The MEXT is for "research student." These are students who are enrolled and taking classes plus getting credit, but are non-degree seeking. A lot of students (not just MEXT) tend to enter as 研究生 and then study for a year while taking classes and take the entrance exam, then they enter as a normal student. All the of the classes taken as a research student transfer into your program once accepted.

vix86 Wrote:If you can get MEXT I recommend it. Most universities mention that they provide financial support to students if you read around on their sites. Its pretty similar to what I know about grad school in the US where your advisor will generally provide you with a stipend and you work as a TA/RA. Schools can waive tuition too. Then there are the fellowships and also JASSO funding as well for privately financed students.

Do public universities in Japan provide the same level of funding to international students? In the US, for example, international students at public universities are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to funding. The most these students usually receive is a tuition waiver for three or four years. Almost all fellowships and scholarships are out of their reach since such funding is only available to citizens. On the other hand, private universities tend to offer international students the same funding as other students. Unfortunately, unlike the US, the best universities in Japan are public, and I would not be surprised if their funding policies are similar to those in the US.

Thanks for the information. I wanted to live in Japan so I'll likely be studying for a Masters (since it's a prerequisite for the PhD program) for a couple of years there (barring misfortune, just waiting for official entrance results/assuming finances work out ok), so I was just wondering what I'll end up doing after that. Either I'll get a job or continue with academics there if possible, but I doubt I'd want to come back to the UK to do a PhD. While I'm obliged to say it's possible I may end up wanting to go back home (though unlikely in my opinion), I'd have psychological hang ups about starting a PhD two years later than I otherwise could have due to my adventures abroad, so I would probably just find a non-academic job in this case.

I'm not sure whether having received MEXT Masters funding affects eligibility for MEXT PhD funding but that's not worth worrying about until I know the results of the former. Glad to hear there's options available.

How about trying for a fully funded US PhD and spending a year in Japan somewhere along the road? Might be fun if you can find a supervisor in Japan who works in a closely related field.

I'm pretty much set on doing any further education in Japan then settling down into a career, really. I mean, the university I'll hopefully be studying at is definitely strong at the subject I want to specialise in (I have a prospective supervisor already), but a good proportion of the reason is because I may want to move to there permanently+move in with GF (which outweighs the question of the number of field medalists in the faculty - a factor which is only of any relevance if your supervisor is one of them ).

Good points. I would think that for a non-Japanese, a PhD from a Japanese university is probably a better choice if the ultimate goal is to work in Japan... sends the signal that you're committed to the country etc!

I suggest looking very deeply into the hiring situation that foreign professors face in Japanese universities. From what I've heard, it's not good at all for people who want to stay long term and eventually receive tenure in Japan.

vileru Wrote:Do public universities in Japan provide the same level of funding to international students? In the US, for example, international students at public universities are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to funding. The most these students usually receive is a tuition waiver for three or four years. Almost all fellowships and scholarships are out of their reach since such funding is only available to citizens. On the other hand, private universities tend to offer international students the same funding as other students. Unfortunately, unlike the US, the best universities in Japan are public, and I would not be surprised if their funding policies are similar to those in the US.

From the handful of schools I looked at, tuition waivers were a common form of financial aid, but they also mentioned other aid as well. I can't really compare US vs Japan as a foreigner, but I get the feeling that the situation might be a bit better in Japan. Japan has been struggling very very hard to try and attract more students from overseas into their programs (see: improved entrance system). While there is fin. aid. I do notice that a lot of foreign students are stiff privately financed (40% at one of my schools of interest). Compared to the US, Japanese school tuition is cheap as well. Learning that tuition per year was in the 50-70万 range, blew my mind. I think you would definitely need to talk to you prospective advisor in advance though to get a good judge on the situation; its bound to vary from school to school. Considering that public schools tend to be the more prestigious schools in Japan, I would figure they might have superior funding options (東大・大大・京大 are all 国立大学).　I haven't looked at these three too closely though since they are a bit out of my league.

kitakitsune Wrote:I suggest looking very deeply into the hiring situation that foreign professors face in Japanese universities. From what I've heard, it's not good at all for people who want to stay long term and eventually receive tenure in Japan.

Is this really the case? I mean I have heard this before, but the person trumpeting it the loudest is.....Debito....and you have to take his junk as a grain of salt.

When I was studying abroad, I had the great chance to sit down (at an izakaya) with a professor from New Zealand that worked in Japanese religion (I believe) and had been in Japan for quite a while. I asked him about life in the academia as a white person here in Japan. In particular, the thing that had me really interested was academic politics. He told me that one of the great things about being a foreigner in the academia (least at this school), is as long as you play the foreigner card a bit strong, people ignore you. You won't get dragged into politics in other words. He wasn't part of any committees as far as I understand. He was left to teach classes and do his research which was what interested him. I never asked him about tenure unfortunately, I could dig up his email somewhere and see if he'd answer a question of mine though.

The thing is though that Debito's "non-tenure"/Blacklist stuff really only seems to apply to teaching English in the university system. I suspect that teachers in other departments probably can pick up tenure, but it'd come at a price: Teaching in Japanese and probably involving your self in the politics that most others get involved in.

That said. Doesn't the "worthless" degree thing only really apply to undergrad in Japan? Isn't most of your graduate work and future employment opportunity going to be heavily dependent upon the work you do on you research?

EDIT: Taking a closer look at the Blacklist. It does seem like his focus is on contract types and not positions. So even a person in say Mathematics could potentially end up under the same contract type. At issue is the lack of tenure tracks that Japanese get but non-Japanese don't get. The largest amount of exposure on this though comes from teachers wishing to teach English so obviously the focus is heavily on that and not other fields.

While a PhD from a Japanese university is not worthless, at least in the US, they really want you to have an American PhD. The standards for research and publication are different in Japan than in the US, so your research and publications may not count for much (or for anything) in the US.

I find that somewhat hard to believe. Japan turns out tons of decent research that gets published in all the top tier journals. Sure, maybe you need to pick the university you go to carefully, just like in the US, but it seems rash to write off all of Japan with a statement that Japan doesn't produce high quality research.

yudantaiteki Wrote:While a PhD from a Japanese university is not worthless, at least in the US, they really want you to have an American PhD. The standards for research and publication are different in Japan than in the US, so your research and publications may not count for much (or for anything) in the US.

To add, US PhDs from comparable institutions (e.g. America's top 20 compared to Japan's top 20) are in fact more valuable in Japan than Japanese PhDs. A PhD from Berkeley will earn significantly more in Japan than a PhD from 東大. I don't have the information on hand, but Google should be of help (I believe the top paid professor at 東大 has a Berkeley PhD). At any rate, I would assume the same applies for top British schools like Oxbridge and LSE.

@OP
As for your relationship, is your gf reluctant to travel abroad with you? If you're dedicated, it's possible to complete your coursework and dissertation in 2-3 years, especially in a field like math which requires little fieldwork or travel. There are several personal anecdotes stashed online of people who've done this, even at top universities. I assume such "fast-tracking" is impossible in a Japanese PhD program.

Nonetheless, if your heart is set on completing your education in Japan, then go for it. The above information is not meant to discourage you, but to give you a fuller picture of your options.

vix86 Wrote:I find that somewhat hard to believe. Japan turns out tons of decent research that gets published in all the top tier journals. Sure, maybe you need to pick the university you go to carefully, just like in the US, but it seems rash to write off all of Japan with a statement that Japan doesn't produce high quality research.

It might be different for science; I'm more familiar with the humanities, where articles tend to get published in journals run by your own advisor or other people at the school, so the standards of peer review aren't quite as stringent.

I'm still just boggled about which college to go to, nevertheless a 博士号. I've never understood why the college you go to affects your pay. It seems unfair. There's over 6 billion people on Earth now. Besides, there are certainly flaws in any institution.

I would imagine that Japan would be a much better local to study technology in. Japan is the land that has given us the robots that talk to you and serve you coffee. Just genius.

I would imagine the stereotype that Asians are smarter would make Japanese people more able to get jobs in America than Americans. The work ethic is certainly thought to be much more highly admired there than here, or at least that's the attitude exhibited where I live.

I just wish I could be in a dark room with a computer and pile loads of literature to spend my time and write about and in Japanese.

imabi Wrote:I'm still just boggled about which college to go to, nevertheless a 博士号. I've never understood why the college you go to affects your pay. It seems unfair. There's over 6 billion people on Earth now. Besides, there are certainly flaws in any institution.

I would imagine that Japan would be a much better local to study technology in. Japan is the land that has given us the robots that talk to you and serve you coffee. Just genius.

I would imagine the stereotype that Asians are smarter would make Japanese people more able to get jobs in America than Americans. The work ethic is certainly thought to be much more highly admired there than here, or at least that's the attitude exhibited where I live.

I just wish I could be in a dark room with a computer and pile loads of literature to spend my time and write about and in Japanese.

Unfortunately, the Japanese work ethic does not transfer over into the realm of Japanese academics.

And I would bet good money that the majority of top researchers in the Japanese robotics industries got their PhD's at US schools.

kitakitsune Wrote:And I would bet good money that the majority of top researchers in the Japanese robotics industries got their PhD's at US schools.

I feel this is really the mentality that Japan is trying to fight though. When they talk about wanting to attract brighter minds to their schools, what they are trying to say is "not only do we want to bring people from abroad to our schools, but also keep people here."

I just have a hard time swallowing the idea that America some how is the only place in the world where the best research is done. People talk about the name recognition of universities, and I think its funny because how do these unis get their recognition? Maybe they are really old, like Harvard, or maybe in the case of places like Berkeley, they have high standards AND turn out bright minds. But what gave them this status? By turning out great research and bright minds before hand... So its really a chicken and egg problem. I like to think there are probably a lot of great universities in Japan, but none of them can do much because the system dictates they need to turn out X number of Nobel prize winners before people seem to go "Oh, this is probably a really good school." I would also caution that maybe why the US is the HQ for research/training in the world might also have a lot to do with its superpower/imperial status.

Lets also not forget that "many of these professors at 東大 and the like went for grad school at <top tier uni in the US>." So is the logic here that all students should attend <top tier uni> for their education? Why can't, "This professor went to Berkeley, so if he's my advisor I'll get a similar kind of support from him that he learned at Berkeley." ? Lets not also forget that in Masters and (definitely) in Doctorate programs; you don't often take that many classes since its very research driven (this applies to US & Japan). So again, the results of your work will depend heavily on you and somewhat on the guidance you get from your advisor.

This is really something that has conflicted me in recent years as I decide where to go for grad school. I like Japan a lot and like being here more than the US. I feel Japan has strong universities and research (see stuff like RIKEN, nothing like it in the US), yet my mentor during undergrad years felt strongly about going to school in the US. Plus the consistent evidence of researchers from around the world coming to the US for grad school. So if any of you are torn between US and Japan for grad school....you aren't the only one.

vix86 Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:And I would bet good money that the majority of top researchers in the Japanese robotics industries got their PhD's at US schools.

I feel this is really the mentality that Japan is trying to fight though. When they talk about wanting to attract brighter minds to their schools, what they are trying to say is "not only do we want to bring people from abroad to our schools, but also keep people here."

Do you really believe that?

Japan has no problem bringing people over but it's on a temporary basis only.

My only evidence here is the rareness and sheer difficulty that Japanese speaking foreigners face in gaining tenure in Japanese universities or gaining 正社員 status in Japanese companies.

And another example that comes to mind is the Japanese government and corporate world's treatment of Brazilian immigrants after the most recent recession. 20 years ago they were all like, hey come to Japan and work, but as soon as business conditions slowed down they were the first groups to be fired. Instead of increasing education and retraining resources to help them people to find other employment options, the Japanese government simple offered them hard cash to go back to Brazil. Even though most of them successfully learned Japanese, made families in Japan, and many had teenage children who didn't speak a word of Portuguese. The people of Japan were clearly not concerned with keeping them here.

I never meant to suggest it was on a permanent basis. I only meant that the schools want to bring in more students from abroad and train them in their programs. The issue of whether tenure tracks exist at other Unis though is a major issue but separate from this. Generally you don't want to work at the same uni you graduated from, so judging the Unis that want to bring students over based on their existence of tenure tracks seems a bit crazy.

I've heard that tenure tracks have really started to dry up though in many places around the world now. They aren't nearly as common as they use to be and many new up and coming doctorates might be looking at a world where tenure is a relic of the pass. The issue of 正社員 though IS a major problem. Not just for foreigners but for even the Japanese.

But none of this is really serves the question of "Should I do grad school in Japan or the US?" though. Or funding, as per the OP question. I still like to think (in my little world), that your ability/value/suitability for a job position will be based on your prior work and what you can do.

vix86 Wrote:I just have a hard time swallowing the idea that America some how is the only place in the world where the best research is done. People talk about the name recognition of universities, and I think its funny because how do these unis get their recognition? Maybe they are really old, like Harvard, or maybe in the case of places like Berkeley, they have high standards AND turn out bright minds. But what gave them this status? By turning out great research and bright minds before hand... So its really a chicken and egg problem. I like to think there are probably a lot of great universities in Japan, but none of them can do much because the system dictates they need to turn out X number of Nobel prize winners before people seem to go "Oh, this is probably a really good school." I would also caution that maybe why the US is the HQ for research/training in the world might also have a lot to do with its superpower/imperial status.

It's not a chicken and the egg problem, but rather a problem of attracting the best researchers and giving them the resources to succeed. The paradigm example of this is Stanford, which had to catch up with the competition when it was opened around the turn of the last century (and it finally did reach the top in the early 60's). Obviously, Japanese researchers are at a disadvantage because it is difficult to attract the top researchers when they cannot speak the language of instruction (hence why the top universities tend to be in English speaking countries). In addition, due to geographical distance, Japanese researchers have less access to cutting edge research, researchers, and facilities. There are surely other factors, but the ones I just mentioned are the most difficult to remedy. At any rate, the most important factor that determines the quality of a university's research is, unsurprisingly, its researchers.

vix86 Wrote:Lets also not forget that "many of these professors at 東大 and the like went for grad school at <top tier uni in the US>." So is the logic here that all students should attend <top tier uni> for their education? Why can't, "This professor went to Berkeley, so if he's my advisor I'll get a similar kind of support from him that he learned at Berkeley." ? Lets not also forget that in Masters and (definitely) in Doctorate programs; you don't often take that many classes since its very research driven (this applies to US & Japan). So again, the results of your work will depend heavily on you and somewhat on the guidance you get from your advisor.

You don't take that many classes in doctorate programs? I don't know where you're getting your information, but as far as I'm aware, most U.S. doctoral programs typically dedicate the first two years to coursework in preparation for qualifying exams. These classes are far from easy and passing qualifying exams can be just as difficult as completing a dissertation. Considering that doctoral coursework is essential to building a broad base of fundamental knowledge in the major sub-fields of a discipline, the quality of instruction should not be overlooked.

As for advisers, although they are important, they are not the alpha and omega of a graduate education. There are other important factors, such as facilities, events (conferences, colloquia, etc.), visiting professors, and the quality of the students. Even the best adviser can't compensate for a lack of these things...

vileru Wrote:It's not a chicken and the egg problem, but rather a problem of attracting the best researchers and giving them the resources to succeed. The paradigm example of this is Stanford, which had to catch up with the competition when it was opened around the turn of the last century (and it finally did reach the top in the early 60's). Obviously, Japanese researchers are at a disadvantage because it is difficult to attract the top researchers when they cannot speak the language of instruction (hence why the top universities tend to be in English speaking countries). In addition, due to geographical distance, Japanese researchers have less access to cutting edge research, researchers, and facilities. There are surely other factors, but the ones I just mentioned are the most difficult to remedy. At any rate, the most important factor that determines the quality of a university's research is, unsurprisingly, its researchers.

Japan's not short on resources for research though. Its 2nd in the world in terms of R&D funding.
I think really the thing that has held back many of the unis though has been the language barrier, but that has been solved by getting "English-only" programs. The classes are in English and you write and defend your dissertation in English. I still think the entrance exam thing though is a big barrier that needs to be done away with. With the advent of the internet, distance isn't a problem and Japan has plenty of its own advanced facilities.

Quote:You don't take that many classes in doctorate programs? I don't know where you're getting your information, but as far as I'm aware, most U.S. doctoral programs typically dedicate the first two years to coursework in preparation for qualifying exams. These classes are far from easy and passing qualifying exams can be just as difficult as completing a dissertation. Considering that doctoral coursework is essential to building a broad base of fundamental knowledge in the major sub-fields of a discipline, the quality of instruction should not be overlooked.

As for advisers, although they are important, they are not the alpha and omega of a graduate education. There are other important factors, such as facilities, events (conferences, colloquia, etc.), visiting professors, and the quality of the students. Even the best adviser can't compensate for a lack of these things...

I've heard in the past that when comparing the graduate program styles between the US and Europe; the US tends to place a lot more significance on the research part of the process, while Europe tends to emphasize the classroom part a lot more. US students still take classes through out the program, especially when their doctoral candidates during prelims, but there is a very heavy focus on research.

vix86 Wrote:(…) I can't really compare US vs Japan as a foreigner, but I get the feeling that the situation might be a bit better in Japan.

Almost all PhD programs in the US at any school of repute are fully funded, i.e. you get the tuition waived or paid for, and around $15,000-22,000 per year as stipend or scholarship. If any place doesn't offer that, it's a sure sign you do not want to do your PhD there. The tuition figures US universities quote are for people who get an outside scholarship so that they can be charged.

vix86 Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:I suggest looking very deeply into the hiring situation that foreign professors face in Japanese universities. From what I've heard, it's not good at all for people who want to stay long term and eventually receive tenure in Japan.

(…) I suspect that teachers in other departments probably can pick up tenure, but it'd come at a price: Teaching in Japanese and probably involving your self in the politics that most others get involved in.

According to a Japanese colleague at 早稲田, sometimes Japanese universities are reluctant to hire foreigners because they try and often can get out of committee work, sometimes for simple lack of ability to write properly in Japanese. But unfortunately it's true that most universities will not offer tenure to a foreigner, but try to fill whatever teaching needs in English (not necessarily teaching English, but mostly teaching foreign students) they have with a five-year limited term appointment (任期).

vix86 Wrote:That said. Doesn't the "worthless" degree thing only really apply to undergrad in Japan? Isn't most of your graduate work and future employment opportunity going to be heavily dependent upon the work you do on you research?

Regrettably no, at least in academia. You can do amazing research, unless you come from a prestigious university and ideally have a well-known adviser, you're not going to get far. Part of the reason is that your PhD research is likely to be very specialized, and you won't have published much yet when you're on the job market, so it's hard to assess your potential. Hiring committees tend to play it safe and go with the prestige of the institution. That's true even in Mathematics, even though in theory it should be the least "political" as a subject.

A PhD is also a period in which you need a fair bit of mentoring, and you're more likely to get good mentoring from a leading figure in your field (unless that leading figure is a real prick and poor advisor, which is sadly rather common).

yudantaiteki Wrote:While a PhD from a Japanese university is not worthless, at least in the US, they really want you to have an American PhD. The standards for research and publication are different in Japan than in the US, so your research and publications may not count for much (or for anything) in the US.

Spot on with very, very few exceptions (like a handful of professors with Oxbridge PhDs in relative niche subjects like economic history).

My general advice to students considering graduate school is that you can never go completely wrong with a top US PhD because you can get a job anywhere in the world with it, while a PhD from elsewhere tends to restrict you to that labour market. The exception is a UK PhD and getting a job in Australia or New Zealand, but even that is changing and more and more US PhDs are hired there.

vix86 Wrote:I've heard in the past that when comparing the graduate program styles between the US and Europe; the US tends to place a lot more significance on the research part of the process, while Europe tends to emphasize the classroom part a lot more. US students still take classes through out the program, especially when their doctoral candidates during prelims, but there is a very heavy focus on research.

In the US, a PhD involves two years of coursework. In the UK one year, but that's not really "coursework" but rather a few seminars. PhDs on the continent rarely involve coursework. This is one of the many reasons why US PhDs tend to be trained more broadly.

So perhaps the idea should be this: if possible, get your PhD at one of the leading US universities, and try to spend time in Japan during your PhD, or come back to Japan as a post-doc for two years and then try to get a permanent position there. It's rare, but possible provided you really immerse yourself in the Japanese work/lab environment. Second best option would be a PhD from Oxford or Cambridge and then do the same thing.

To give this some context and qualifiers: I've only worked at a Japanese university as a visiting researcher, but I have been shortlisted for a tenured position at a 国立大学 once and was offered a position at one of the better private universities. I now have a position in economics at one of the unis mentioned here, so I'm not speaking from the perspective of a scientist. I also don't have anything particular against British academia, as you might see from my location, or against Japanese colleagues, but I'm trying to think what would be the best course of action.

I also think that being a professor in Japan is one of the best positions to be in as a foreigner: you have a fair bit of social status, a comfortable income north of ¥7-8 Mio per year, and generally well-educated people around you who won't treat you as the outsider all the time.

Of course, the issue is likely completely different if you're not aiming for an academic position but want a PhD to get a private sector research position.

Whilst Irixmark's advice is generally good, I think it depends hugely on the field you are in. For maths, in general, MIT and Cambridge are far better for your prospects than anywhere else in the world. It was the same for me when choosing where to go - Cambridge and Toronto are way better than anyone else in the world in my field (plant science, specifically photosynthesis). That matters much more than the general reputation of the place when it comes to getting future post-docs.

I thought a lot about doing my PhD in Japan and took advice from others who had already done so. The main thing I came away with is that the relationship between supervisor and student in Japan is completely different than in the UK. In the UK, your supervisor is like a mentor, but you conduct your own research and take credit for it. In Japan, according to three separate people who had done science PhDs there, the supervisor is like your boss; you follow their research ideas and they primarily take credit. The balance of power in the relationships is something I hadn't considered before, and it put me off. From speaking to science PhDs in the USA, it seems the situation there can vary from like the UK to like Japan depending on the institution and the individual.

You should really be choosing your PhD based on who is doing the research you most want to take part in, not which country you want to go to. Figure out exactly what you're interested in, then find the best person in that field and become their student.

As for funding, I know big government-funded science research organisations like RIKEN in Japan have plenty of funding for PhDs. Your best bet really is to contact individual universities and ask them, as funding is totally variable by field. Depending on the branch of maths, you might be able to get sponsorship from a company or institute.

Blahah Wrote:Whilst Irixmark's advice is generally good, I think it depends hugely on the field you are in. For maths, in general, MIT and Cambridge are far better for your prospects than anywhere else in the world. It was the same for me when choosing where to go - Cambridge and Toronto are way better than anyone else in the world in my field (plant science, specifically photosynthesis). That matters much more than the general reputation of the place when it comes to getting future post-docs.

Totally agree. For my field it's almost the opposite: Cambridge is definitely not the place to go to. I just wanted to emphasize that you need to get your PhD from a place that's actually leading in your field and whose graduates actually get a job like the one you're hoping to get.

Blahah Wrote:You should really be choosing your PhD based on who is doing the research you most want to take part in, not which country you want to go to. Figure out exactly what you're interested in, then find the best person in that field and become their student.

Second that. A PhD is a commitment of several years of your life while your friends get jobs, start to make savings, perhaps settle down somewhere already.

Just chiming in to make it clear I'm not thinking about a career in academia in the future.

Carry on~