I very arbitrarily picked Norwegian Wood by Murakami Haruki, because he was the only contemporary Japanese writer I had heard of and I liked the Beatles song. (By blind luck I chose a novel that's comparatively easy, though if I had it to do over again I would've chosen a children's chapter book; not even something as hard as Harry Potter, but maybe one of the Majo no Takkyuubin chapter books, which are for kids in about 2nd-3rd grade.)

I read it alternating periods of intensive dictionary lookup with periods of looking up only the most crucial words. Not in any kind of systematic way, just based on whether I had my dictionary with me, and whether I felt like going to the trouble. I didn't focus on making sure I understood individual sentences; rather, if there was a part I didn't understand I let myself float along till the next part, so long as I kept the general gist of things. To my own surprise, for the most part I did understand what I read, and the hard parts mainly resulted from my own lack of understanding of the cultural and social and political environment of 1960s Tokyo.

pm215 Wrote:

Fillanzea Wrote:I know of one other graded reader in Japanese, which is Roy Andrew Miller's "A Japanese Reader: Graded Lessons for Mastering the Written Language." I don't like it very much; the book was first printed in 1962, and it really shows, with many examples of old-style orthography and few examples that will be useful to modern students. The book progresses from the fundamentals of the writing system to "Liberalization Plans in Foreign Trade Exchange" and "The Forms of T'ang Poetry" in less than two hundred pages, leaving little room for explanation. It's also worth noting that nearly all of my Japanese books, including everything from novels to popular texts on psychology, are easier than even the 'intermediate' articles in this reader.

Yeah, I have a copy of this; I wouldn't recommend it for studying but it's kind of interesting to come back to it occasionally to see whether any of it has got any easier...

If you actually do have a need to read old pre-kana-reform texts it does have a reasonable summary of the changes and some example texts, but as you say not many people really need that any more.

The funny thing is, only a month or two after I wrote that review on Amazon, I went to Japan as a Monbukagakushou scholarship student -- where my advisor had me reading classical Japanese and Meiji literature and stuff and I had to adapt real quickly to pre-reform kana usage. That was not a happy time in my life. But I think the koten books I read that were aimed at young native speakers were actually more helpful in that respect than Miller's reader.

My first novel reading method for what its worth - don't remember if I read it somewhere or made it up but it has yet to fail me.

First you have to know the language basics (for Japanese I'd say Rtk and Kanji Odyssey completed, for French it was just 1000 SRS sentences for me). Find a novel you would be interested enough to read in your own language and calculate the first 10% of that novel's length.

For me I had a 600 page edition of 2000 leagues under the Sea in French so 10% was page 60 or so. Force yourself look up everything you don't understand on those first 60 pages (probably a good idea to SRS it too). This process will give you familiarity with the vocab used in the rest of the novel, the author's style, and most importantly an understanding of the story context.

The process can be uncomfortable and boring going word by word at times, but the key is that you can look forward to the payoff of reading the other 90% much more rapidly and with enjoyment only occasionally looking up critical parts for understanding.

I have yet to find a novel where the first 10% does not work as a linguistic map for the other 90% that is sufficient to at least follow the story.

When I started reading Norwegian Wood I knew about 400-500 kanji. I was in the 4th year of a high school Japanese course, so it couldn't have been much more than that. It wouldn't have worked for everybody, but I don't think anyone who wants to read authentic texts should feel like a lack of kanji knowledge is holding them back, especially when there are books for elementary children that are full of furigana.

More on kanji usage in Norwegian Wood and why it supports my thesis:
http://emilyhorner.com/japanblog/?p=4

The jump from N3 to N2 isn't that big in the scheme of things. I think once you've got to N3, you're past that painful phase and it's just a matter of learning more. It's only in the previous scale, JLPT3->JLPT2, that it was huge.

I went from around N4 level to around N2 level in a year, and could pass an N3 test about 6 months in (well, a practice one anyway, i don't think there were any official ones yet). I did, however, have to work my arse off.

Hyperborea Wrote:No ill intention in the "broke college kid" comment. It just seems that a majority of the people posting are in that category or just barely beyond it. The choice of how to study and what to use depends on what your constraints are.

If money was tight, then I think that reader series, for somebody at the right level, while good is not essential. If money's not tight but instead time is then it seems to me to be a good value. Expensive yes but worth the cost.

As for a long novel, I could probably buy a few for that cost but at my current level I couldn't read them without great difficulty, if at all. I also picked up Harry Potter on my last trip to Japan though for later since it's still beyond my reading level. I got the audio CDs to go with it. They weren't cheap (~¥4,500) but I think they will be a very useful tool and a time saver.

I was just comparing the money spent on the stories to their benefit.
However, I've just contacted my Japanese and asked her about those stories. She thought that it was a weird choice because of the contents, and, because there are many Japanese publications that can provide the same graded reading experience with a wider variety and a much cheaper price.
After all, she could find the books in the library of some Japanese secondary school or something. She said that she will borrow them for me. I'll start reading Level 2 next week

kainzero Wrote:you could also read kyoko shimbun if you get tired of the dry content of the news, lol.

http://kyoko-np.net/

lol, what is that website exactly?!!

greatfool Wrote:My first novel reading method for what its worth - don't remember if I read it somewhere or made it up but it has yet to fail me.

First you have to know the language basics (for Japanese I'd say Rtk and Kanji Odyssey completed, for French it was just 1000 SRS sentences for me). Find a novel you would be interested enough to read in your own language and calculate the first 10% of that novel's length.

For me I had a 600 page edition of 2000 leagues under the Sea in French so 10% was page 60 or so. Force yourself look up everything you don't understand on those first 60 pages (probably a good idea to SRS it too). This process will give you familiarity with the vocab used in the rest of the novel, the author's style, and most importantly an understanding of the story context.

The process can be uncomfortable and boring going word by word at times, but the key is that you can look forward to the payoff of reading the other 90% much more rapidly and with enjoyment only occasionally looking up critical parts for understanding.

I have yet to find a novel where the first 10% does not work as a linguistic map for the other 90% that is sufficient to at least follow the story.

Hmmmmm....that's an inspiring method

zigmonty Wrote:The jump from N3 to N2 isn't that big in the scheme of things. I think once you've got to N3, you're past that painful phase and it's just a matter of learning more. It's only in the previous scale, JLPT3->JLPT2, that it was huge.

I went from around N4 level to around N2 level in a year, and could pass an N3 test about 6 months in (well, a practice one anyway, i don't think there were any official ones yet). I did, however, have to work my arse off.

Wah! I AM working my fat-Middle-eastern ass SO hard...
I hope that I can pass N2 by the end of the year XD

fifo_thekid Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:you could also read kyoko shimbun if you get tired of the dry content of the news, lol.

http://kyoko-np.net/

lol, what is that website exactly?!!

The Japanese equivalent of The Onion and other comedy news sites.

Fillanzea Wrote:More on kanji usage in Norwegian Wood and why it supports my thesis:
http://emilyhorner.com/japanblog/?p=4

I think your link deserves way more visibility.

Your blog entry is an excellent analysis on kanji usage and, to me, it shows how you can progress with Japanese without being bogged down with 2000+ kanji. In a way, I think, you show how to continue with the approach I happen to describe in this thread.

I'm going to buy and read Norwegian Wood - regards.

Fillanzea Wrote:I know of one other graded reader in Japanese, which is Roy Andrew Miller's "A Japanese Reader: Graded Lessons for Mastering the Written Language."

Another one is an 8-volume series by Naganuma Naoe, but it's extremely difficult to find even in libraries (for some reason they often have the useless "word books" and "kanji books" but not the readers themselves). They're sort of reminiscent of Miller in that volume 1 starts with これ　は　ペン　です and volume 8 has 漢文 and the Tale of Genji in the original.

I really wish Japanese had something like John DeFrancis' Chinese readers, which cover 400 characters in each book and are 800-1200 pages each, introducing huge amounts of vocabulary and having lots of practice passages, sentences, dialogues, and extracts from real publications. The closest anything comes is Jorden's Written Japanese, which is outdated and only covers 425 kanji, and Japanese The Written Language, which is still in draft and only covers 400 kanji.

Unfortunately all the other "readers" and textbooks available emphasize number of kanji over amount of actual reading.

Bokusenou Wrote:

fifo_thekid Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:you could also read kyoko shimbun if you get tired of the dry content of the news, lol.

http://kyoko-np.net/

lol, what is that website exactly?!!

The Japanese equivalent of The Onion and other comedy news sites.

nice! i'll be checking this website everyday for sure XD

Fillanzea Wrote:When I started reading Norwegian Wood I knew about 400-500 kanji. I was in the 4th year of a high school Japanese course, so it couldn't have been much more than that. It wouldn't have worked for everybody, but I don't think anyone who wants to read authentic texts should feel like a lack of kanji knowledge is holding them back, especially when there are books for elementary children that are full of furigana.

More on kanji usage in Norwegian Wood and why it supports my thesis:
http://emilyhorner.com/japanblog/?p=4

The authors of Kanji in Context make a similar argument except they use a baseline of about 1200 kanji before someone can comfortably dive into novels and such. Still, much less than 2000 kanji.

Definitely. People get way, way too hung up on kanji counts and what percentage "coverage" you have, but reading is so much more than that. Your number of kanji studied is virtually meaningless as a measure of how much trouble you'll have reading something or how much you'll gain from it.

[Zgarbas]

How weird, I was sure I'd answered this o.O...
Anyway, I'm also starting with Murakami. First Underground, then Hard-Boiled Wonderland. I am totally doing greatfool's method .

(and the fact that I got that entire text passage without having to look it up was a pretty unexpected confidence boost o.O)

yudantaiteki Wrote:Definitely. People get way, way too hung up on kanji counts and what percentage "coverage" you have, but reading is so much more than that. Your number of kanji studied is virtually meaningless as a measure of how much trouble you'll have reading something or how much you'll gain from it.

100% agree. I think people confuse reading (understanding a sentence with complex grammar and semi-unfamiliar vocab) and reading (being able to pronounce the kanji). For a native, how many kanji you know is an important metric: it's assumed you already know the word once you can sound it out. For an L2 learner, it's irrelevant.

Reading is a skill. You improve it by reading as much as you can, not by reading a small amount with an unusually high kanji coverage. I mean, what, is the goal to cram as many different kanji into as short a passage as possible? What's the point?

I would hesitate to call kanji count irrelevant, but people shouldn't get hung up on it the way they do. It's a testament to how few people make it out of beginner level that it dominates discussion in Japanese learning forums on the internet.

I think more of a tough-love attitude about it would go a long way. This forum does a pretty good job of that already by treating the ~2000 kanji in Heisig as an achievable short term goal rather than an impossible ridiculous dream.

I think people in general should definitely be diving into native sources as early as they feel comfortable. Things change so much when you start being able to use Japanese to do things you like to do. It takes a bit to kick start that positive feedback loop, but once you do it's a really positive feeling. The more things you do that you like, the more you can do, the more you want to do, the more comfortable you feel, the more things you can do that you like. It starts to feel like you can't not learn.

erlog Wrote:I would hesitate to call kanji count irrelevant, but people shouldn't get hung up on it the way they do. It's a testament to how few people make it out of beginner level that it dominates discussion in Japanese learning forums on the internet.

I think more of a tough-love attitude about it would go a long way. This forum does a pretty good job of that already by treating the ~2000 kanji in Heisig as an achievable short term goal rather than an impossible ridiculous dream.

I think people in general should definitely be diving into native sources as early as they feel comfortable. Things change so much when you start being able to use Japanese to do things you like to do. It takes a bit to kick start that positive feedback loop, but once you do it's a really positive feeling. The more things you do that you like, the more you can do, the more you want to do, the more comfortable you feel, the more things you can do that you like. It starts to feel like you can't not learn.

I agree with what you said.

From reading the posts on this thread, I get the impression that there may be quite a few who find learning the jouyou kanji (I refer to the Heisig method only) much harder and much more of a chore than reading and building one's vocabulary. Speaking from my experience only, I found that learning the jouyou kanji through the Heisig method was the easiest part of the learning process. Learning grammar is easy, too, but there are many grammar points to absorb, and accompanying caveats to remember. For me, building one's vocabulary is the hardest part of the process, and slogging through text which is chock-full of unknown words is certainly painful, but at least any kanji I encounter are familiar by this point. That, to me, is no small thing. (And many of those keywords actually make sense.)

In my case, I didn't encounter the Heisig method until I was at an intermediate level, and my snap judgment was that I didn't want anything to do with it. So honestly, I don't know how my studies would have progressed if I had made use of Heisig's method.

But my experience was that I was spending a lot of time and effort on kanji, or failing to spend a lot of time and effort on kanji (and just reading light novels instead!), and I kept berating myself for my lack of kanji knowledge and my lack of persistence in studying. But, all the while, I was reading books, and I was reading manga, and I was acquiring an enormous amount of sight vocabulary that way -- sometimes by looking words up in the dictionary, sometimes by guessing based on context -- even if I couldn't have told you the first thing about any of those kanji in isolation.

It was very enlightening to first make that connection -- I want to read books, I am reading books, so why am I setting myself up with some arbitrary goal with regards to something that's not really getting in the way of my ability to read books?

Fillanzea Wrote:In my case, I didn't encounter the Heisig method until I was at an intermediate level, and my snap judgment was that I didn't want anything to do with it. So honestly, I don't know how my studies would have progressed if I had made use of Heisig's method.

But my experience was that I was spending a lot of time and effort on kanji, or failing to spend a lot of time and effort on kanji (and just reading light novels instead!), and I kept berating myself for my lack of kanji knowledge and my lack of persistence in studying. But, all the while, I was reading books, and I was reading manga, and I was acquiring an enormous amount of sight vocabulary that way -- sometimes by looking words up in the dictionary, sometimes by guessing based on context -- even if I couldn't have told you the first thing about any of those kanji in isolation.

It was very enlightening to first make that connection -- I want to read books, I am reading books, so why am I setting myself up with some arbitrary goal with regards to something that's not really getting in the way of my ability to read books?

From my short experience, I can say that learning using RtK has two benefits that you are missing now:
1- The almost flawless writing capability that you acquire when you use Heisig's method.
2- Knowing the meaning of the individual Kanjis when allows you to "guess" the meaning of the words that you've never seen before.
For me, those two factors were very influential in my studies...

fifo_thekid Wrote:From my short experience, I can say that learning using RtK has two benefits that you are missing now:
1- The almost flawless writing capability that you acquire when you use Heisig's method.

...Which I really don't care about except for bragging rights. I'd like to get to the point where I can pass level 2 of the KanKen, but realistically, I'm never again going to live in Japan or get a job there, and even when I did live there I almost never had to write kanji from memory. (My teachers didn't mind if I used my electronic dictionary on exams, and neither did I.)

Quote:2- Knowing the meaning of the individual Kanjis when allows you to "guess" the meaning of the words that you've never seen before.

I do pretty well at guessing the meaning of words I've never seen before. Some of that is kanji knowledge I've gained from studying kanji; some of that is kanji knowledge I've gained from extensive reading and vocabulary study; some of that is just that I'm good at inferring meaning from context. My problem when I was at a high intermediate level is that there were a lot of kanji compounds where I understood the meaning but didn't know how to read them. RtK wouldn't have helped with that.

This is all a moot point because I do not want to do RtK. Part of that is because I have enough kanji knowledge that the RtK stories would interfere with the mental concepts I already have. Part of that is because it doesn't make sense to relearn a huge number of kanji from scratch just so that I can shore up my skills with a handful of rarer ones. If I want to improve my kanji writing, I'll study a KanKen test prep book.

fifo_thekid Wrote:From my short experience, I can say that learning using RtK has two benefits that you are missing now:
1- The almost flawless writing capability that you acquire when you use Heisig's method.
2- Knowing the meaning of the individual Kanjis when allows you to "guess" the meaning of the words that you've never seen before.
For me, those two factors were very influential in my studies...

-writing capability
from the perspective of art, yeah, you can put together radicals but without years and years of rote, disciplined practice, it is nearly impossible to write well balanced characters both individually and in the context of a manuscript.
as far as writing "good enough," as most japanese people do, there's still a certain style that you naturally acquire through handwriting. i'm also finding that being able to convert words into kanji/kana is a bigger obstacle to writing as i hear it, than being able to actually write the kanji.

-guessing the meaning through keywords
i also found that seeing a kanji used in different vocabulary can establish a feel for what the kanji means without having to rely on the keyword. it's not exclusively limited to heisig. the keyword stuff, i dropped almost immediately.

The first books I read were probably collections of short stories aimed at elementary school students. There are quite a few aimed at each of the different grade levels. You could probably use them as a cheaper alternative to graded readers aimed at non-native speakers.

The first novels I read were things like Harry Potter and books of some of the studio Ghibli films where I already knew the story in English. I think I was probably around N2 level when I started reading those sorts of books.

Norwegian Wood was probably the first book I was able to read without needing to use a dictionary all the time; a pretty significant development because it then meant I could read even when I was in a situation where pulling out a dictionary all the time was inconvenient.

[Zgarbas]

First thing I read was Penguin's Japanese short stories with parallel translation. The texts varied in difficulty, with furigana over most kanjis and nice explanations for weird or confusing parts. I'd definitely recommend it.