Would someone please speak to the rational behind why some terribly uncommon words appear within the first 50 Kanji introducted in RtK? For example, what practical reason is it for me to learn the Kangi for "gall bladder" before I learn the Kanji for something more common such as "father", "mother", "bathroom", or even "beer"?

Under Hesig's method, order doesn't matter because you are supposed to learn all of the book before beginning to actually use them. The book is not layed out by frequency, but by primative order. Therefore kanji that can be easily constructed using primatives you already know, but are not especially useful, will come before more common but more complicated ones.

Oops, guess I posted this shortly after another post with the exact same question... http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...2#pid11032

Please take the time to read the introduction to "Remembering the Kanji" by James Heisig
http://www.ic.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/p...RK4-00.pdf

Give the method a try, it's definitely worth it for many people.

rational -> rationale


Gall bladder consists of 3 very simple parts: moon, sun, line. Father and mother have forms entirely of their own: 父 母, and if you want to write "bathroom" in kanji, it's 便所, お手洗, or 化粧室. Yikes. There is no kanji for "beer."

In any case, 胆 is far more useful than you might think.

I suggest you go back and read the introduction and preface. The reason for the ordering of the characters in the book is fully explained there.

Many kanjis in RTK looked so rare that I tought I would never use them, but I'm getting surprises all the time. Like the plum (梅） kanji that comes up in tsuyu (rain season). In fact, I got a major surprise when I opened up the first page of Breaking into Japanese Literature and found no less than 7 non-Rtk1 kanjis. Before I completed the book, I was under the impression that the jouyou set of kanjis was pretty much the end of it. I wonder what people who have had more experience post rtk1 have to say about the frequency of non rtk1 characters.

麦酒 [びーる: BI - RU] (n) (uk) beer

Older loan words were assigned kanji at the time...

RTK1 is nothing. I read the manga Bleach and regularly encounter kanji that aren't even in RTK3.

Perhaps there is an argument to be for the learn more section of the site to be more prominent? Certainly the popularity of Fabrice's site seems to be exploding but it appears that, and this is no criticism, people are finding the site without knowing about its origins.

RTK1 and kanji コーヒー really are a winning combination

How will you be able to read うに 海胆 at the sushi shop without gall bladder?

You'll end up seeing many kanji like that, that may appear obscure but are actually used in some compounds in everyday situations. Its true that 胆 is nowhere near as frequent in usage as for example 母 'mother', but the order of Heisig's RTK is supposed to yield very good learning efficiency compared to learning each kanji in unrelated order.

As it is, gallbladder should take you just a minute to learn in the order of the book, and it will strengthen your association of 月 primitive with 'flesh', which is used quite often.

JimmySeal Wrote:In any case, 胆 is far more useful than you might think.

I was about to say the same thing in the other similar thread. Just because a keyword does not seem useful in English, does not mean the same for the kanji assigned that keyword.

sheetz Wrote:RTK1 is nothing. I read the manga Bleach and regularly encounter kanji that aren't even in RTK3.

yea, but most of those kanji are 当て字 (ateji) used to describe swords or peoples names. You will not find them used in newspapers. If the furigana was not written by some of the words containing those difficult kanji, people would not be able to read them. The clear fact that they use 当て字 in Bleach means that they can use all sorts of wild kanji for words.

example: 殺された written as 殺られた with furigana - やられた. this is not the standard usage of the 殺 kanji, but it helps clarify what was meant by やられた.

Magnadoodle Wrote:Many kanjis in RTK looked so rare that I tought I would never use them, but I'm getting surprises all the time. Like the plum (梅） kanji that comes up in tsuyu (rain season). In fact, I got a major surprise when I opened up the first page of Breaking into Japanese Literature and found no less than 7 non-Rtk1 kanjis. Before I completed the book, I was under the impression that the jouyou set of kanjis was pretty much the end of it. I wonder what people who have had more experience post rtk1 have to say about the frequency of non rtk1 characters.

I don't have a ton of experience yet, but I think it all depends on what you're reading. I think Breaking into Japanese Literature uses more non-RTK1 kanji than other books because the stories are old or take place in an unusual setting. I read a short story in which the main character went fishing. So there were non-RTK1 kanji for the names of fish and such. Some books give furigana for non-joyo kanji or even for some of the rarer joyo kanji. Other books might not really use non-joyo kanji.

Basically, I learn new kanji as I come across them, unless it's something like fish... I find a lot of the non-RTK1 kanji that appear aren't in RTK3, so I'm definitely not going to use RTK3. Learning them as I see them ensures I'm not learning kanji that I'll never see...

The handful of 2Kyuu vocabulary (from Meguro) I've been through just today has three RTK3 kanji so far: 2145, 2721, and 2280, in addition to a few dozen others I've input in the past month, found in texts here & there ([kana]achikochi[/kana] uses 2043, which I would show if I knew how to do kanji here!). So I think RTK3's stuff is more common than not, as RTK1/Joyo are a foundation at best.

My JLPT2 vocab. files also contain non-RTK1 kanjis, but I think that these kanjis would have furigana in the exam. The kanji list for 2kyuu (http://jlptstudy.com/2/index.html) only contains 739 kanjis. Even JLPT 1 has very few kanjis beyond the jouyou list. In real life tough, there might not be furigana, so it's good to know the kanji.

Yeah, I'm not saying you need to know them for the exam, just that there are very common words whose kanji are not in RTK1/Joyo. I also find it easier to figure stuff out from context knowing the kanji, and it makes for more robust pathways in my memory.

yorkii Wrote:

sheetz Wrote:RTK1 is nothing. I read the manga Bleach and regularly encounter kanji that aren't even in RTK3.

yea, but most of those kanji are 当て字 (ateji) used to describe swords or peoples names. You will not find them used in newspapers. If the furigana was not written by some of the words containing those difficult kanji, people would not be able to read them. The clear fact that they use 当て字 in Bleach means that they can use all sorts of wild kanji for words.

example: 殺された written as 殺られた with furigana - やられた. this is not the standard usage of the 殺 kanji, but it helps clarify what was meant by やられた.

I think he might've referring to characters like 卍 and the like.

If you want to get some weird looks from people just write the gall bladder or placenta for them. The greatest words to know in this respect are the likes of 胆石 and such.

=P

how often is the kanji for gall bladder used?.. ive been having alot of trouble with this kanji.. mostly because i have absolutely no idea what one is.. ive heard the word once or twice before but its very uncommon (in english).. and so is decameron.. ive got no idea what that word means. ive never heard of that word before.. and i cant find a good definition.. because i dont know what it means in english i cant seem to remember the kanji.. it makes me feel stupid.. like i should work on english instead of trying to learn japanese..

does anyone know a way of helping one remember these? or can you tell me what they are?

ps how does one set vista to be able to write japanese characters? i knew how with XP but vista is way different.. grr i hate new computors.. they always look so awesome until you take them out of the box..

Vista should come with Japanese support. Look in your Regional and Language Options.

Decameron is explained by Heisig as ten days. The "deca" prefix means ten.

Gall bladder is used pretty often in words like 大胆 (bold).

I too found gall bladder odd. According to Rikaichan dictionary, 胆 means liver, which is more familiar. BTW, I've notice that when I check Heisig's translations, Rikaichen tends to differ more than Moji ( no other way to study than with Firefox! ) almost as if Moji was based on Heisig and and either Rikaichen was archaic or Heisig eccentric. I don't worry about relevance anymore, but look for meanings that help with memorable stories.

As for decameron, I just find it fascinating that a such time arrangement is still used in Japan. One of the first naughty pictures I saw as a teen, no trouble with vivid recollection there

J

oh so thats what a gall bladder is.. why would an organ have anything to do with the word bold? is it a cultural thing? like how people say that you should follow your heart? if it is a cultural thing what does it stand for?.. (like how heart=love here in america) what does gall bladder=?

ahh so ten days then.. i was really confused as to why there would be a kanji for a collection of novels from the 1300's.. grrr this is all because my books havent arrived yet.. my new computor wont let me open up the sample pdf of RTK1 because it supposedly a security risk.. the postman needs to hurry up and bring me my books.. i feel like ive been waiting forever even though its only been like 3 days..

oh and i tried getting vista to let me write in japanese.. oh it let me write.. but it wouldnt turn it off.. i was stuck with it only allowing me to type in hiragana/kanji for a while.. i think its ok now though.. i just had to go back and find out what got messed up.. apparently there is no mouseclick button to turn it back to english with vista.. i have to learn the key cammand.. however vista does have a way of looking for the kanji you want to use by drawing it on a little square so i guess that makes up for it..

Vista does have a language toolbar which you can choose to use somewhere. XP also had that IME pad. The Vista IME is exactly the same as the XP IME.

Rikaichan is based on EDICT

胆 can mean either liver, guts, or courage. This makes sense in English too. If you have guts, you're courageous.

Smackle Wrote:Vista does have a language toolbar which you can choose to use somewhere. XP also had that IME pad. The Vista IME is exactly the same as the XP IME.

Rikaichan is based on EDICT

胆 can mean either liver, guts, or courage. This makes sense in English too. If you have guts, you're courageous.

yeah but XP had a button to make english come back up.. i need a stupid key command for vista.. though perhaps i pressed the wrong button and made the button for turning it back to english disappear..


aaahhh i see so its guts.. that makes sense now.. thanks!

In fact it translates pretty well--think of the idiom "he's got galls to come in here and say a thing like that!" That's how I remember 大胆.