Warning: I rant, and am not very concise. The question/point of this post can be found under the line if you don't feel like reading.

I'm in something of a rut here.

I'm getting very frustrated with RTK 1; I want to be done with it so I can move on.

When I got to around frame 500, being fed up with the idea of having to go through all 2000, I switched to RTK Lite so that I could try to move on to attempting to read earlier (Was this misguided? I do plan on going through the whole book along the way).

Anyway, the thing that's really bogging me down, is the writing. Writing while reviewing is just too slow. I feel like I could make leaps and bounds of progress faster without learning how to write them; and not only that, I can't conceive of a reason I would need to be able to hand-write these characters anyway.
But according to Heisig, not practicing the writing would be "Missing one bird with two stones". So I assume that the writing practice is a part of the memorizing?

The writing is making me hate my daily practice, turning it into some chore with no visible progress with my language learning; even though I know what the system is about, and I have seen for myself how much easier its going to be learning to read after becoming familiar with the characters. The method is spot on with what I am learning about memory during my Psych classes.

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So, what I want to know is, is it possible to make writing practice less tedious, time consuming and frustrating, or should I just drop it all together, and try to learn just reading, because that's all I care about anyway?

I have ADD by the way, so getting this into a routine I can do with minimal frustration is imperative if I want to finish this.

[s0apgun]

Dude, then DON'T WRITE THEM! I know I don't!

By the time you commit all 2000+ kanji to your memory, lets say that magic 90% everyone tosses around then try writing them. It will be much easier when you have a firm grasp on how the kanji are put together.

Heisig says to make real flash cards, did ya listen to him on that too? SRS (no writing) + Timebox is going to be the best thing for you.

Nah, screw hand-made cards. I use Anki; I haven't messed with the time boxing though.

Thanks for your feedback, I just like to know that there's somebody who would advocate, or at least not virtually punch me in the nose for, looking for justification to not write the characters during reviews.

[s0apgun]

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...timeboxing

Try taking a timer while you're doing SRS and time how long until you notice you start getting distracted or lose interest. For example if you lose interest after 15 minutes. Use that for your timeboxing in anki. Do maybe 2-4 "15 minute" timebox sessions through out the day.

No point in staring at the SRS if you're not getting anything done. I love the anki on my phone that way I can chug along all day long, as I too get distracted. 1 or 2 here and there and before you know it you're done and it feels like you didn't even work at all!

I do about 25-50 new cards a day with no problem. I finish many hours before going to sleep. I'm around 1500 in RTK right now.

If you really, really don't want to write them, then don't. For me, writing is really helpful because the act of writing helps me remember the kanji and keep them in my memory. Also, I actually enjoy writing them more than looking at them. But the important thing is to keep going and not get frustrated, so you could drop the writing until the mood passes. Also, you could just write a few of them in every review session, like 5 or 10 (or 2 or 3 if you really hate it).

PsychWardSoldier Wrote:I can't conceive of a reason I would need to be able to hand-write these characters anyway.

Japanese people love paperwork, so if you go to Japan it would be helpful to be able to write things like your address.

If it bothers you as much as you say it does, then I would have to agree: it's better to drop the writing than to drop out altogether.

Your observation that writing takes up a lot of time is also correct. I can do a vocabulary recognition card in about 5 seconds, but an RTK card with writing takes around 20 to 25 seconds, or 4 to 5 times as long. I do about 40 RTK reviews each day. If I dropped the writing portion, I could probably complete the reviews at the same rate as vocab cards, cutting 10 to 14 minutes off my review time each day. I don't think I'd ever consider dropping it, though. Instead of being frustrating, I've always found the process of writing the characters to be rather fascinating, so I rather look forward to it each day.

Anyway, perhaps you can ease into the writing portion and try to pinpoint exactly why it frustrates you too much(i.e. whether it's a matter of time spent writing or whether it's the difficulty in recalling the strokes), or even postpone it until you get through with the book. You might try only writing characters for the first few reviews of each day, or writing the character after you reveal it, or tracing them in the palm of your hand with your finger or using MSPaint instead of pencil and paper, or maybe taking a five minute break to cool off after missing too many cards, or going at a slower pace and adding fewer new cards per day, and seeing if any of it helps. In any case, the more time your spend practicing, the less frustrating you should find it.

[Zgarbas]

I just quick trace with my finger.Much quicker than the actual writing, but if I make a mistake I still know it.

I guess I used kind of a blended method. I only wrote the cards that were difficult remember or that I kept mixing up.

It also did a variation of the Heisig method, where I included a minimum of one or two sample words with each kanji. It made more sense to me to write 料理, which has a concrete meaning, instead of just 理, which is broader and more vague. That's just me though.

I write newer characters when they come up for the first or second review, but unless it's one that is difficult, I don't write them anymore once they become more familiar. I do make sure that I can clearly visualize the kanji though. Or, sometimes I draw them with my finger - somehow that feels faster and easier.

I used to write the ones I get wrong.
Sometimes I would write them out anyway because I didn't trust myself if the answer is right.

I finished RTK 2 years ago though, but for vocab I still write it out by hand.

In real life you may not hand-write but I feel like it all helps when learning what a word means.

Zgarbas Wrote:I just quick trace with my finger.Much quicker than the actual writing, but if I make a mistake I still know it.

I cycled between writing in my palm with my finger for a while and then writing on paper for a while. It's certainly much easier and quicker to just write with your fingers.

Thanks for the advice all.

I think I'll start writing out the characters I miss with my finger, that doesn't sound too annoying. At least I'll get some practice with stroke order, and I won't feel so bad for skipping a part of the process.

s0apgun Wrote:http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...timeboxing

Try taking a timer while you're doing SRS and time how long until you notice you start getting distracted or lose interest. For example if you lose interest after 15 minutes. Use that for your timeboxing in anki. Do maybe 2-4 "15 minute" timebox sessions through out the day.

No point in staring at the SRS if you're not getting anything done. I love the anki on my phone that way I can chug along all day long, as I too get distracted. 1 or 2 here and there and before you know it you're done and it feels like you didn't even work at all!

I do about 25-50 new cards a day with no problem. I finish many hours before going to sleep. I'm around 1500 in RTK right now.

Hate to post back to back, but thanks for pointing me to the timebox controls. I don't know why I never bothered not looking at them. Bloody PERFECT for ADD guys like me.

I think that with the Time boxing, and with "writing" the missed kanji on the palm of my hand instead of writing them all out on paper every review, I've got an morale boost for continuing my studies.

Thanks guys.

I jot them down on paint as I always use Anki on my computer. This is done more so I can be sure I have the primitive placement down and that I am also remembering peculiarities of the particular symbol (for example the way the attire primitive changes in kanji like "distant"). I never pay attention to stroke order and they usually turn out very deformed, but that is irrelevant. For kanji I have loads of experience with (easy ones or matures), I don't even do that. Doing it this way also helps because I tend to watch anime during reviews and do a couple of symbols every once in a while, which makes having pen and paper around all the time inconvenient.

I won't be writing kanji by hand unless I visit Japan or do JLPT, and by that time I'll have been reading for so long I'll probably have long since abandoned SRS and thus forgotten stroke orders anyway, why learn them? As long as one can easily recognize the kanji, they can be written to be at least legible even without dedicated practice.

I never used to wrtie my reviews I though I was doign pretty good with my SRS ( sometimes I used the finger trace thing, I count that as non writing)

Then one day I decided to write them out...my % dropped to 50% turns out Kanji I thought I had down were in some way not quite right ( in small ways that made big differences) even those I traced out with my fingers that I thought I was getting right so now during reviews I write them all out. Putting ink to paper is a good way putting down in hard form what you actually do know rather that what your brain thinks it knows based of some hazy memory.

Don't write then if you hate it so much.

Personally I do it as writing things by hand is essential for me (in English or Japanese).

don't be careless with stroke order either.
if you want to read cursive/brush stroke kanji, knowing the stroke order helps a lot.

but it's not like there's a lot of rules to remember.

I invest alot of my time in handwriting, maybe too much.

I started to learn japanese around 24 december 2011.

Right now I finished 406 kanjis from RTK1, hiragana and katakana.
I think I move so slowly because I have alot of time but I want to make a steady progress. I have a japanese notebook where I'll write all the kanji in random order, 15 times x each.

In 8 days in february, I've spent:

295 total minutes on handwriting kanji
150 minutes adding new kanji
150 minutes doing RTK revs
50 minutes doing Anki kana revs
40 minutes using lazy kanji flashcards while in sauna
110 minutes jpod/michel thomas

Two days ago I added (only) 10 kanjis in the morning and reviewed them after 6 hours, I could only remembered 1!. So next day I wrote them many times... but this might help only short time. Anyways I never miss reviews everyday.

Gaijinme Wrote:I invest alot of my time in handwriting, maybe too much.

I started to learn japanese around 24 december 2011.

Right now I finished 406 kanjis from RTK1, hiragana and katakana.
I think I move so slowly because I have alot of time but I want to make a steady progress. I have a japanese notebook where I'll write all the kanji in random order, 15 times x each.

In 8 days in february, I've spent:

295 total minutes on handwriting kanji
150 minutes adding new kanji
150 minutes doing RTK revs
50 minutes doing Anki kana revs
40 minutes using lazy kanji flashcards while in sauna
110 minutes jpod/michel thomas

Two days ago I added (only) 10 kanjis in the morning and reviewed them after 6 hours, I could only remembered 1!. So next day I wrote them many times... but this might help only short time. Anyways I never miss reviews everyday.

DONT write each kanji more than once when you learn it, believe me. I just write once, only when im writing it down in my notebook with meaning in my language. Writing more than this has no use.. no, it actually makes you learn the wrong way. You could remember only 1 kanji from 10, because you were also focusing on writing them, instead of only remembering. It's easier to write something as soon as it appears in your mind - but you want to remember them, not just write down. Write kanji in your mind, not in your notebook, it will help you to remember them. You shouldn't try to improve your handwriting, while learning new kanji, focus on remembering them first(or at least dont write them, unless you're sure you remember them well). That's what i think about it. Im just after 1000 frame, but i was trying the same thing. If you dont remember them, relearn stories. Heisig's method becomes kinda useless, when you're trying to remember the kanji you've forgot, by writing them.

I understand but there are characters like 衣 or 初.
I have to write the new primitives...

I will write them less since I'm advancing way to slow! And I will get back to most of the kanjis anyways with other methods

This post is going to make me come off as kind of a huge jerk, but at this point I don't really care.

Those of you complaining that writing is just taking "far too long" because it's taking you upwards of 25-40 WHOLE minutes a day to do RTK should just stop now. Save yourself the trouble. Forget you ever thought you were going to try to learn Japanese in the first place.

Language learning, especially Japanese, takes lots and lots and lots of time. If you don't have the patience or aren't comfortable putting in that kind of time then be honest with yourself about it. This forum is nice for study tips, but I'm not sure anyone can really give you tips about how to develop a fundamental work ethic. You either have that work ethic or you don't.

If you don't feel like RTK is helping you then quit RTK. It's fine if you'd rather spend that 40 minutes working through a textbook. Lots and lots of people have learned Japanese without RTK. I, and others, believe using RTK is worth it and makes it easier. Others feel differently, and that's perfectly okay.

Just try not to complain in such a way that comes off as.."I couldn't possibly spend a reasonable amount of time every day studying Japanese!" It makes those of us who have spent the time, who are at a high level, who do know how much time and effort it takes just give a big *sigh* as we see yet another person we know will probably fail.

I don't like to see people fail. I wish more people were successful at learning Japanese. I'm also not saying this to be mean to any of you. I wish someone would have pulled me aside and told me some of this sooner. I don't want to see any of you fail, but all of you need to very clearly understand that if you don't put the time in then you will not get better.

If I could cut the time I spend writing these things out of my study time I would, I just think it would be doing me a disservice. The writing helps cement them and improves my ability to recall their shape, especially when I have to come up with a random kanji out of the blue.

In essence, I find it annoying to spend time writing them out, but know it's one of those necessary evils.

I agree with what erlog says though, if spending that extra time is such a hindrance, maybe take a moment to determine what amount of effort you're really willing to give to the specific area of kanji learning (don't give up completely on the language as a whole, just move onto a different area of learning).

This is probably one of those situations where it matters whether you want to eventually be fluent or passable. If you want to move on to something else faster, like the spoken language, then maybe that would be the better choice to focus on for now.

This language is difficult and will take time. Pick what needs work, be it writing, reading, or speaking, and focus on that choice if it makes you feel you're making better progress. Sooner or later you have to study all facets anyways, if the ultimate goal is to be fluent.

I dunno, this is one of those grey areas where one way of study works well for one person and a different works well for another. I like writing them, so I'm on team writethedamnthingsout.

erlog Wrote:This post is going to make me come off as kind of a huge jerk, but at this point I don't really care.

Those of you complaining that writing is just taking "far too long" because it's taking you upwards of 25-40 WHOLE minutes a day to do RTK should just stop now. Save yourself the trouble. Forget you ever thought you were going to try to learn Japanese in the first place.

Language learning, especially Japanese, takes lots and lots and lots of time. If you don't have the patience or aren't comfortable putting in that kind of time then be honest with yourself about it. This forum is nice for study tips, but I'm not sure anyone can really give you tips about how to develop a fundamental work ethic. You either have that work ethic or you don't.

If you don't feel like RTK is helping you then quit RTK. It's fine if you'd rather spend that 40 minutes working through a textbook. Lots and lots of people have learned Japanese without RTK. I, and others, believe using RTK is worth it and makes it easier. Others feel differently, and that's perfectly okay.

Just try not to complain in such a way that comes off as.."I couldn't possibly spend a reasonable amount of time every day studying Japanese!" It makes those of us who have spent the time, who are at a high level, who do know how much time and effort it takes just give a big *sigh* as we see yet another person we know will probably fail.

I don't like to see people fail. I wish more people were successful at learning Japanese. I'm also not saying this to be mean to any of you. I wish someone would have pulled me aside and told me some of this sooner. I don't want to see any of you fail, but all of you need to very clearly understand that if you don't put the time in then you will not get better.

I agree with you a 100%, I feel the same way. Writing does actually help but most people tend to put it off because they don't think it's useful. Some people do feel writing is a pointless skill when compared to reading, speaking or listening but it's the one that will help you form better memory for reading and will help with speaking. Then again, figuring stuff out for yourself is key too. It's good to experiment and find your own pace.

Maybe a little offtopic, but i would recommend using http://www.yamasa.cc/members/ocjs/kanjid...3?OpenForm site when learning new kanji, it's not always clear from which side you should start writing some kanji and the site has everything you need to get a good start with writing. If i write kanji once, and then write it in mind the correct way every time, there isn't really a problem with writing. Im going to write them later quite a lot anyway, i dont do it now, because it would go in the way of remembering them by Heisig's method. Unless im sure, that i dont need to recreate story from memory or take time to build it again, im not going to write them more than once- that would make me trying to remember them by writing them xx times down, and that shouldn't be the way to learn while using stories.

kainzero Wrote:don't be careless with stroke order either.
if you want to read cursive/brush stroke kanji, knowing the stroke order helps a lot.

but it's not like there's a lot of rules to remember.

I second this.

Also reviewing using AnkiDroid makes the process of writing Kanji while reviewing easier, and I skip obvious one and write in a VERY messy way.