I've been working on RTK for about 4 months now, and I'm at about 800. (Slow, I know. I'm a full-time student and working part-time.) After a month or so of using it I shared the method with my closest friend (who I actually met in my university's [terrible] JP language class), and he started it as well, albeit at a much slower and more staggered pace.

He messaged me these two links today, saying that he agrees with this blogger about RTK's shortcomings, and that he wanted instead to learn the kanji "in context".

Here is my response to him.




http://nihongoperapera.com/reviews/remem...kanji.html

http://nihongoperapera.com/flashcards-insufficient.html


His main arguments against Heisig :

["In this whole time, you learn no Japanese-- you don't learn any vocabulary, no grammar, just the meanings and the writings."]

Absolutely right. If you were starting from knowing no Japanese and doing only Heisig, your speaking and listening abilities would still be zero when you finished it.

["Heisig's extreme system completely strips the kanji of their context... "]

Again, true.

["...and will probably be a waste of time."]

And... Here's where I disagree. Anyone who wants to just learn enough Japanese to get by, "survival Japanese" as it's called, absolutely should NOT do Heisig. Heisig is for those people whose end goal is to know how to write and have the FOUNDATIONS for recognizing those kanji in context. It is far from a stand alone approach, and I absolutely agree that one should learn how to read them in contextual sentences, but don't you think it would just be that much easier if you already knew how to write them all first? This guy also complains about the keywords that are assigned to each kanji, which I personally think is one of the more intuitive aspects of RTK (Remembering the Kanji). By having a keyword for each character you essentially have a name for it, a label if you will. Later on as you are acquiring reading skills and learning them in context by doing, what else, actual reading, having a different name for each character will just make the transition that much easier. The point is not to make you remember the keywords forever, it's to make it easier for your mind to naturally transition from the English keyword to the Japanese meaning.

It's true, RTK is basically another step, but it is far from a step that you don't need. It essentially breaks down the process of learning the 2000+ joyo kanji into more manageable steps, allowing you to learn the writing (and as a bonus some of the meanings) of all of them BEFORE you have to learn the readings. If you think that you can get to a native-level of kanji understanding without it, then by all means, do so. I tried the traditional method (also known as beating your head against a wall) for years and could never write more than a few dozen. RTK is absolutely not for everyone; of course everyone will learn in their own way and at their own pace. But it should not be discounted so easily based on claims of "you won't learn them in context!". That comes after.

Also, both of the major Japanese language forums that I've read through (ajatt.com, kanji.koohii.com) both say that RTK2, the one Heisig wrote to learn the readings, is absolutely unnecessary and that it's better to learn them from reading native material and doing SRS flashcards.

(By the way, for a great way to learn them in context, aside from just buying books from Tsutaya, is the site http://www.readthekanji.com)

Hey, speaking of SRS flashcards, I believe the same blog had something to say about them too.

Again, his main arguments against them :

["Spaced repetition alone will not make you smart... I have serious doubts that Mnemosyne will drastically improve your grammar skills, or your writing ability... it is only a supplement. For real learning, you need to experience the language directly."]

I actually agree with all of these! Honestly, I don't really get the point of his argument... (I guess it is framed more as a warning.) Absolutely you could never learn a language solely through flashcards, just as you could never learn it just through RTK, or just through any singular source for that matter. SRS is terrible for learning grammar or writing, but it is the best system I've found for learning vocabulary, just as RTK is the best system I've found for learning how to write the joyo kanji. I use native podcasts, movies, and music to practice listening. I use readthekanji and books to learn reading. I don't get who this blogger is warning or arguing against... I doubt anyone seriously thinks that you could take any one of those things by themselves and learn the language efficiently.

/end

Thoughts, comments, rotten tomatoes?

I think you're right and on a learning path that many find effective. I also think you'll lose a lot of time from learning Japanese if you get too involved in such arguments. I could suggest some lines of reasoning for you to try, but instead, I'm going to go back to reading in Japanese instead of debating in English and advise the same to you.

He got to 600 characters and then he started messing them up. Clearly, he's the one doing it wrong. He seems to have missed the point of Heisig. It's not to get you to the point of Chinese people, it's to give you a familiarity with kanji, and most importantly a logical system to easily remember unknown kanji and easily differentiate between them. If he got screwed up at 600, thats his own fault, I don't care what he says.

I studied RTK for about a year and a half into studying Japanese. I finished in about 5/6 months. About a year and a half after I finished, I passed N1.

And no, SRS won't make you smart. Anyone who gets into it should know that going in. You learn Japanese by doing things in Japanese. SRS helps you remember things that you might not see all the time though.

edit: He mentions SuperMemo and findingMnemosyne, but fails to mention Anki. I'm not sure he knows what he's doing. Even if you like other software more than Anki, it's super popular so you should at least acknowledge it on your blog.

I see RTK primarily as a method of learning how to write the kanji. If you don't want to learn how to write, you don't need to do it; most learners can do without, going recognition only. Of course RTK also has a side-benefit of helping differentiate characters which to a beginner look like a bunch of squiggles; it's a very neat system.

TheSlyPig Wrote:["In this whole time, you learn no Japanese-- you don't learn any vocabulary, no grammar, just the meanings and the writings."]

This is a stupid argument. I studied from a traditional text alongside RTK; by the time I finished both, I knew basic vocab, grammar, AND I could write full sentences in kanji.

I think a lot of the haters of RTK just don't want to admit that they screwed up and wasted their time with slow inefficient methods. Also as another poster pointed out, we shouldn't have to justify ourselves; the results (being able to effortlessly read and write) will speak for themselves.

There are legitimate criticisms to be made of Heisig, but I don't think that link really addresses them.

TheSlyPig Wrote:["In this whole time, you learn no Japanese-- you don't learn any vocabulary, no grammar, just the meanings and the writings."]

this idea basically shows that the guy has no idea how large a project language acquisition actually is. who cares about all the japanese vocab you could have learned in those 2 months, compared to the 3 years it will take to get anywhere relevant? It's like saying you're more likely to become a millionare because you've got ten bucks in your pocket...

As a former RTK skeptic...

Quote:In this whole time, you learn no Japanese-- you don't learn any vocabulary, no grammar,

That's not a flaw of RTK. If you want to learn kanji, use RTK. If you want to learn grammar, use the many resources on the internet. Saying RTK does not teach you grammar is like saying donuts does not taste spicy. If you want something sweet, eat a donut. If you want something spicy, eat a hot curry.

Quote:just the meanings and the writings.

Quote:When I started using the Heisig method, I had studied Japanese for two years and kne about 400 kanji.

And for those 2000+ kanji, it does it well and in 3 months (even less in full-time hours).

In comparison, 400 kanji in two years isn't so impressive. And many of those 400 kanji will be simple kanji that even non-Japanese learners would probably know.

http://nihongoperapera.com/how-to-start-...anese.html

Quote:There's a lot of talk about finding "the fastest way" and "the most efficient method."

Quote:So take it slow and have fun.

Several reasons why "taking it slow" is not good advice:

1) While "taking it slow" in learning Japanese is fine for high school students, many learners are in their 20s and 30s and even higher. If we take it slow, we'll probably die before we can fully realize our Japanese skills and read our first novel/manga/whatever.
2) "Taking it slow" is bad advice for learning Kanji. The sooner you see the kanji, the sooner you can recognize them, and the sooner you can memorize them (RTK is for this).

Quote:I know that in a weird way it's cool that Japanese is so difficult. But in the end the difficulty of Japanese is not that it requires tremendous intelligence to speak, but rather that to master it requires tremendous (and sometimes tedious) time spent studying.

3) More time spent studying now means less time spent studying later. Since learning a language is about memorizing (see point 2 above), the memorization process can be completed sooner rather than later.

Finally the elephant in the room: If RTK is not an effective method for learning Kanji, what alternative methods are there?

That question is why I'm a former RTK skeptic.

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:I think you're right and on a learning path that many find effective. I also think you'll lose a lot of time from learning Japanese if you get too involved in such arguments.

I agree, I tend to stay away from arguments like this and I wouldn't have done so if it was not with my close friend. Arguing and debating each other is just a part of our friendship.

I only posted it here because, hey, I spent a some time on it and it has to do with Japanese. Thought perhaps someone could benefit from it.


Asriel and aphasiac, I couldn't agree more. To me it seems that he tried it and it either A: Just wasn't right for him or B: He was approaching it in the wrong way. Which sadly led to him condemning it for all on a public blog. To be fair though, he did link to the sample chapter and admitted the benefits of breaking kanji down into stories.

I would say just forget your friend.
I get tired of arguing with people over RTK when they either:

a)gave up early and never really put in much effort
b)never actually did RTK, but are critiquing it without doing the method

Instead of worrying about your friend, just worry about your own progress.
Work really hard at RTK and become really awesome at kanji.

Become a living example of why RTK is so effective.

When your friend asks you why you're so good, tell him/her that they
should have followed your suggestion.

chamcham Wrote:I would say just forget your friend.
I get tired of arguing people over RTK when they either:

a)gave up early and never really put in much effort
b)never actually did RTK, but are critiquing it without doing the method

Instead of worrying about your friend, just worry about your own progress.
Work really hard at RTK and become really awesome at RTK.

Become a living example of why RTK is so effective.

When your friend asks you why you're so good, tell him/her that they
should have followed your suggestion.

I like your attitude, that's the way people should think.

I think by now it's proven that Heisig is good and actually works at doing what it advertises to do, provided you see it through to the end. It's been repeatedly demonstrated that RTK can be finished in less than a month. What other method has this potential? I'm not aware of one.

Most people seem to miss the "what it advertises to do" part. You'd think someone would at least invest a bit of time in figuring out what they are signing up for before they actually donate the next 100 hours of their free time. People, right?

Asriel Wrote:If he got screwed up at 600, thats his own fault, I don't care what he says.

Exactly this. Rather than say "Heisig sucks and doesn't work", it's more accurate for him (or anyone) to say "Heisig didn't work for me", because it clearly works at doing what it is supposed be doing. Or maybe they have inferior non-RTK genes (and should be banned from reproducing).

Most people don't finish Heisig in 3 months, let alone 1.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Most people don't finish Heisig in 3 months, let alone 1.

This is true, but if you can knock it out in six months, you're still doing well I think.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Most people don't finish Heisig in 3 months, let alone 1.

Truth. RTK took me over a year, but then I work full time and did vocab at the same time.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Most people don't finish Heisig in 3 months, let alone 1.

I'm talking about potential, not averages. The method puts that goal well within the bounds of mortal achievement. The most fervent kanji extremist can expend every last bit of time and effort on an inefficient method and likely not achieve the same goal in that kind of time frame. You can't exploit potential if there isn't any.

But what is the "goal" of Heisig? Heisig in itself is useless, it's only useful as a step to Japanese proficiency. Whether someone finishes Heisig in 1 or 6 months is irrelevant. You can't compare learning to write 2000 kanji from English keyword to someone using a more traditional method because the goals and results are totally different. The comparison only becomes meaningful when both the Heisig and traditional person have advanced further into their study.