Hey guys,

Recently been thinking, I've never been to Japan and probably wont get to go for another year or so, has anyone ever learnt the language, made it to Japan and are disappointed?

I cant imagine how that would feel, spend the last few years learning Japanese finding out you don't like the country.

Something to think about.

Not at all, compared to England Japan is like heaven.

Absolutely did not disappoint me (and I hope to be returning in a few months), but I suppose it depends on your expectations. It is far from a paradise, but I found that the good things that people say about it are generally true.

See this thread - http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3076

This is actually one of my greatest fears and I have pondered this very same question numerous times. I'm not even sure why I started learning Japanese but I hope that I'll be able to visit the country in 2013 to see if it was worth it...

And something tells me that I won't be disappointed.

There's a lot of things to like and a lot of things not to like. And a lot of these things don't depend on the country but on actual society.

I think the only major disappointment was how bad at I am at the language.

bakuchiku Wrote:Not at all, compared to England Japan is like heaven.

I really hope this is true, England (well where i am in England anyway) is pretty drab, no idea why people come here from all over the world!

kainzero Wrote:I think the only major disappointment was how bad I am at the language.

It's this one I really fear. But I'm studying for it.

In some ways Japan disappointed me, in other ways it did not. It was culturally very different to England, and even though the Japanese are known to be polite, in certain circumstances they didn't come across as such (at least compared to Brits, who are also excessively polite). Although I encountered some instances of xenophobia, I also ran into a number of people who were thrilled to meet me and talk about England.

It fascinated me as much as I thought it would, though. I think the main thing to bear in mind is that it won't necessarily be bad, but it will be different. If you can accept that, you'll have a good time.

I visited in 2009 and am going back this year.

thejoshlord Wrote:I really hope this is true, England (well where i am in England anyway) is pretty drab, no idea why people come here from all over the world!

Could be to experience our rich culture and history. Or perhaps to study at our world renown universities. However, the weather is most definitely shit.

Japan actually seems more interesting if you don't know the language, haha. But I think that's true of any country that you feel safe in (if you don't feel safe you just get worried). It's very interesting to be in situations in which you don't really understand what is going on. My first year or so in Japan I was pretty confused a lot of the time, and it kept things interesting.

When I first came to Japan I was really excited about almost anything, just because it's so different from America. The first time I went home to America for a couple of weeks I thought it was very boring there.

After a little time goes by most people get culture shock. For a laid-back person like myself minor culture shock usually ends in laughter and asking yourself "Why do people do that here? Srsly"

All and all I've always loved Japan, and have lived there for four years.

I find that as I stay here longer I feel frustrated about bigger problems rather than small culture shock frustrations. Part of this is that I know enough Japanese people now that I've seen shitty things happen to some of them, or I've had friends be victims of social problems in Japan that are ignored moreso than in America.

I also find that there is a lot more I like about America now, and there's certain things about Japan I'm never going to get used to or like. Now I have a very balanced view, where there are things about America I like and things I dislike, and there are things about Japan I like and things I dislike.

For example, I remember when I first came to Japan I thought that everyone is so much nicer than in America. But after three and a half years in Japan I went back to America for the second time, and I thought wow, people here are so nice. Of course, the reason for this is that people are nicer in completely different ways. When I lived in America I was used to people being nice in certain ways, but not others, so when people were nice in that other way it seemed so surprisingly nice. Now I think of each country being nice in specific ways: like 'People in Japan are more polite than Americans,' but at the same time, 'Americans will really go out of their way to help you and be hospitable even when they don't know you well, in a very big way, much moreso than in Japan (don't get me wrong, the Japanese are more hospitable in smaller ways, just not very big ways)' So there are certain ways that Americans are very nice, and certain ways that Japanese are. (Those are kind of strange examples; when you take many more examples on balance it's hard to say that one country has nicer people than the other--it's just different)

This thread reminded me a bit of the introduction to Read Real Japanese Fiction. The editor talks about how learning a langauge is like taking a very long train ride, but you don't know where the train is going. What will you think of the place you arrive at? Who knows? The way learning a language will change your life is not clear. Maybe you'll be interested in something you never knew about before. Maybe you'll meet people who will change your life. Maybe you'll have experiences you don't like. But you should just be excited that life is going to be interesting, and you never know what is going to hapen.

Japan will only let you down if you go thinking it's all sparkly rainbows and smiles. Its a country, just like every other. It has its good points as an outsider (trains.. that work!) and its bad points (every kid in the supermarket points at you) but overall, it is what it is, another first world country.

As for speaking Japanese, I know people who'll tell you not speaking the language added to the fun of figuring stuff out, and just going places and doing things without really having any prior knowledge beforehand to colour it.
I'm not in that camp, and knowing I could at least communicate put my mind at ease.

Just don't fill your head with romantic ideas, be realistic and you'll be fine. Also helps with not suffering culture shock.

At the risk of being the only one posting in a negative light, I`d like to add a few caveats to whats been said. I have been here for coming close to three years now. While I have had numerous great experiences and don`t "regret" my decision to come, I feel that there are certain things which go unsaid on a message board such as this and I would like to mention a few of those now.

Firstly, politeness is relative and the myth that Japanese people are polite is one that is quite over hyped and played out in my opinion. The Japanese language itself is littered with examples of set phrase "politeness raisers" as it were, however outside of a purely service based encounter such as would occur in a shop etc, you as a foreigner are very unlikely to be treated to this honeyed language. Many times I have had Japanese coworkers choose to knowingly "yobisute" me, that is drop all appropriate honorifics from my name. This may seem like a petty complaint, but when it is employed day in and day out and knowingly used in a manner which is intended to belittle you, it can become quite grating. I cannot speak for everyone, and perhaps this won`t bother you as much, but no matter the racial or linguistic origins of a coworker back home, I would always endeavour to treat them in the same manner as everyone else. This includes using their name in the manner appropriate in our country of residence, thus Taro Tanaka would, if we were in my home country, be referred to as Mr. Tanaka and not Mr. Taro, whereas in Japan you as John Smith are very likely to be called John, or John-san as opposed to Smith, Smith-san or Smith-sensei (irrelevant of whether you fill out the form correctly, or inform peole of which is your Family and which is your Personal name), although your coworkers will refer to each other in the correct fashion, replete with appropriate use of the sensei/san honorific.

This double standard applied along racial lines is one of my pet peeves.

Another point when it comes to politeness or lack thereof is the tendency of (particularly older) Japanese to refer to you as gaijin or gaijin-san as opposed to your country of origin, or any other number or appropriate modes of address ( e.g. Onii-san, or your BLOODY name even after having been told what it is.) This again smacks of discrimination and would be equivalent to me insisting upon calling Japanese people I meet in England, "Mr. Gook" or "Mr. Chink" instead of their names.


Perhaps the biggest surprise/disappointment you are likely to encounter if you are aware of it, is the complete lack of the rule of law in Japan. Do not take this to mean that Japan is the wild west, it is not and you are quite unlikely to be the victim of violent crime here. The real problem though is what can befall you if you run afoul of the police. As a foreigner (racially and legally) you are offered no protections under the law. Human rights in Japan are contingent upon citizenship ( and fair treatment contingent, arguably, upon race). A previous public prosecutor in Saga-ken has attested that in training he was told that yakuza and foreigners have no rights and can be treated in any way you like.

While in the common law tradition, there are guarantees of a fair trial and legal representation (even competent interpretation), In Japan, this is not the case. You can and will be held for 23 days without charge and without access to a lawyer ( or at times medical treatment). You may be provided with a hostile interpreter with sub-par language ability. While I personally have never run afoul of these problems myself, it has resulted in me being wary (afraid) of the police in this country. I have on occasion been assaulted and out of fear/prudence, decided it was best not to contact the police. I have had a friend told after he tried to press charges for a grievous assault (resulting in a shattered nose requiring surgery), that if he tried to press charges he would be deported (despite not retaliating on his assailant)

I fear that I have gotten carried away with myself and would like to apologise if that is that case, I will just summarise some of the other disappointments in Japan

1. Lack of opportunities for career advancement.
2. Substandard accommodation.
3. Racist and discriminatory social institutions (not every individual person!)

For the O.P. I would stress that Japan is not a bad place per se, as long as one comes into it with their eyes wide open (lots of green tea and onsens!!! ). Many Japan forums and societies insist upon playing up the good aspects of Japan, while ignoring the bad points and shouting down those who dare to bring them up. The "team Japan" media is also guilty of this at times as well.

I would suggest though that you research all aspects of Japan and make a decision yourself based upon that. I would suggest checking out debito`s website, which does a nice job of highlighting some of the more obvious problems foreigners may encounter in this country.

At the very least though you should visit before you continue to invest too much time into the Japanese language, don`t forget that Japanese is only really spoken in Japan and it would be a damn shame to learn it to fluency, only to find out that you can`t really see yourself living here!!!

Thank you for your patience

I never want to live long-term in Japan, but that doesn't mean I've wasted my 12 years studying Japanese since I still intend to make a career of it in the US. I was somewhat disappointed in Japan (although my current life in Tokyo as a grad student is much better than Tochigi as a JET was), but that's life.

One thing I do agree with you about, ronnihonjin, is that Japanese does have an awful criminal justice system. It seems though, that most Japanese people don't know much about it and almost everyone is unaware that it's been criticized by the UN and various international human rights organizations.

Though, some of the stuff you said I either disagree with or would phrase much differently if I wrote it myself.

ronnihonjin Wrote:For the O.P. I would stress that Japan is not a bad place per se, as long as one comes into it with their eyes wide open (lots of green tea and onsens!!! ). Many Japan forums and societies insist upon playing up the good aspects of Japan, while ignoring the bad points and shouting down those who dare to bring them up. The "team Japan" media is also guilty of this at times as well.

Nice post! I agree with what you said; more negative posts like yours do get shouted down, either with poor excuses ("racism/police corruption exists in all countries, it's not a Japanese thing") or it'll be implied that these bad experiences are somehow your fault.

This happened alot in this previous thread, when negative posts by long-term Japan residents were being refuted by people *who had never even been to Japan*. It's worth having a read through:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3076

I think the problem is that some have these perfect ideal in their heads, and don't want it ruined, or people have been there on holiday and have had a mostly positive experience due to it being a short visit and not seeing all the crap.

Oh man, I hadn't seen that thread -- it has all of the usual stuff you hear; it's your fault if you don't like Japan, I like Japanese culture 100% more than you, people who want to become Japanese citizens despite never going to the country, etc.

That's a good thread, though, if you ignore all the ignorant people and read only the posts by those who have actually lived there -- Jarvik's posts are a good representation of someone who really enjoys Japan, and Futureblues and welldone101 have a more nuanced and negative view (while still liking the country enough to live there).

Tzadeck and ronnihonjin have very good posts that I think reflect reality pretty well.

I will mention though that much of Japan can actually differ area by area, and that is why you must apply the "Every Situation Is Different" liberally to Japan--especially when you start talking about work and doubly so if that work is in schools.

I have yet to actually be disappointed majorly by Japan, but that's mostly because I researched and read people's accounts on Japan over a span of 7-8 years. I slowly began to draw a picture of what Japan really was instead of what I had gathered from anime. When I got here I never experienced culture shock and there have only been a few instances that come close. I have now spent almost 2 years total in Japan and still am enjoying my time here. I came over for a year of study abroad and then return home and suffered reverse culture shock for nearly 6 months. I'm now back and feel back at home.

Tzadeck Wrote:For example, I remember when I first came to Japan I thought that everyone is so much nicer than in America. But after three and a half years in Japan I went back to America for the second time, and I thought wow, people here are so nice. Of course, the reason for this is that people are nicer in completely different ways. When I lived in America I was used to people being nice in certain ways, but not others, so when people were nice in that other way it seemed so surprisingly nice. Now I think of each country being nice in specific ways: like 'People in Japan are more polite than Americans,' but at the same time, 'Americans will really go out of their way to help you and be hospitable even when they don't know you well, in a very big way, much moreso than in Japan (don't get me wrong, the Japanese are more hospitable in smaller ways, just not very big ways)' So there are certain ways that Americans are very nice, and certain ways that Japanese are. (Those are kind of strange examples; when you take many more examples on balance it's hard to say that one country has nicer people than the other--it's just different)

I think this point of your post is the one that bothered me most. When I first came to Japan I was flabbergasted at the level of respect and customer service you can get in Japan. Its very much a "customer is always right" sort of culture compared to the shit in the US. When I returned to the states for a short while after 6 months in Japan, I turned the lens of scrutiny on the way I was treated at businesses and stores. Some might argue that its a small thing to nitpick about about countries but we spend a lot of time at stores and buying things; so IMO its a very valid point of contention. In Japan you are treated almost like royalty at shops and stores, be they large corps or small conbinis. It can vary some, but compared to what I experienced in the US it was ridiculous. Point where it was hammered home so much was I decided to take the Greyhound to visit a friend while I was back for a month in the US. Some of the most spiteful people ever. But you can apply this to restaurants, walmart, public servants, etc. Its sad really because the concept of superior customer service was once a pentacle of American business I feel. When I return back from study abroad it only got worse when I decided to work part time at a Subway and got to experience the customers.
I think this can apply to interpersonal relations between people too. I think Japanese will bend over (more) backwards for their friends than many friends in the US but this is YMMV thing.
You would really have to give some examples of where you think US is better in terms of "nice" vs Japan "nice." Its fine if they are small things, because I realize its the "small things" that really matter when it comes to choosing which place you like over the other.

There are plenty of things that frustrate me about Japan though, but they don't necessarily "disappoint" me.

Politics / Govt.
Japan has a totally dysfunctional government that IMO hasn't actually accomplished too much. Part of the problem stems from the fact that their main leader, the Prime Minister, changes about ever 7months to a year. Most people don't seem to care much about politics, but I have yet to actually be around working adults during an election so maybe my opinion will change. I will say that many young people seem to be pretty apathetic about the whole ordeal and I would not be surprised to learn Japan has worse young voter turnout than the US.

Law
Japanese law is horrendous. Basically try to never get arrested because Japan doesn't really have the "innocent till proven guilty" mentality. Its also often pointed out that Japan has something like a 90% conviction rate which is ridiculously high for a modern industrialized country. Compared to the US this is bad, but I think if you look around the world you'll find the situation is somewhat similar.

Consumer Rights
This one actually pisses me off quite a bit. In the US you have the ability to often return purchased items regardless of where you bought them and regardless of whether the box was opened or still sealed. This is protected by law. In Japan, they have cooling-off laws which are suppose to protect you in purchases, however if you buy something and use it for a bit and realize there is something wrong with it; returning it is practically night impossible. Sometimes you can reseal the box if you didn't destroy it opening it and take it back and claim you never opened it, but stuff like a TV or a stereo or the like. If you find that the quality is vastly below what you expected, you can't get a refund. I had this happen to me with a $2,000 plasma TV.

Education
Most people know about Japan's education system I think. Its very rigid and it really does not allow for much movement. The obsessive focus on testing hurts their competitiveness in the international market and no one seems to realize it.

Change
This is no different from any other country on the planet. (Insert Nationality) hate change. I feel its probably worse in Japan though, particularly in the aspect of business. The Japanese economy has been stagnate for over a decade now, for example, and no one has really done much to try and change it.

Business
This is probably the one thing as of late that has been a sore point to me. I want to stick around in Japan for many more years but I really don't want to spend my time working as a teacher. I want to get involved in something more my interest (IT). The problem though is that I despise the structure of Japanese business culture and think its a 3-legged dog. There are plenty of Western companies here but they are hard to get into. Primarily its the "Live to Work" mentality that I find abhorrent in JP business culture and at fault for the decreased birth rate in Japan. See also, working 9am-9/10pm.

While racism and discrimination are a problem in Japan, I think they are somewhat over-exaggerated by people like Debito. They are definitely problems within the system and they will probably affect you (more) negatively if you are not white. But to me though, its just something you get use to and only notice when it blindsides you in something you want to do.

All that said, I am not disappointed in Japan. My reasons for being here are quite simple really. 1) I like the girls 2) I find people here more polite at least at face than people in the US (this is a double-edged sword though) 3) I'm a consumer, I like buying stuff and Japan has a lot of the stuff I like to buy/consume.

Let me sum up the negatives by saying that one thing you have to get use to saying living here is something to the effect of "*sigh* Japan..." or "***** Japan..." or "Only in Japan" I use the last one a lot.

I would say that most people who come to Japan for anything longer than a tourist visit become disappointed.

This is not the fault of Japan, it is the fault of bad expectations or bad planning. These fall into two major camps:

-The unrealistic otaku who expects Japan to be perfect in every way and thinks moving to Japan will fix everything they hate about their life. Japan will be like in the anime. S/he will be popular because they are foreign. Everyone they meet will love anime/vk/igo/whatever just like them. S/he will get a hot boy/girlfriend despite never having been on a date before. Etc.

-The eikaiwa lifer. They had fun at first and made ok money (for a new graduate) working in the eikaiwa industry, but they stayed in it too long and now are trapped in an exploitative industry with no job security making way less than they should for their age. They can't get a job back home because they have no useful skills or move out of the eikaiwa industry in Japan because they generally never learn enough Japanese. They tend to interpret everything as racism. See debito's site and gaijinpot for examples.

Everyone else tends to be pretty satisfied with their life here.

Those who rant about the legal system or racism in Japan frankly need a bit of perspective. The percentage of people incarcerated in the USA far exceeds any other country on the planet and legal fees for a defense are outrageous. While there is room for criticism regarding the pre-trial treatment of suspects (though at least you won't get shanked or raped), the prosecution only bringing trials to court for cases it is sure it will win explains most of the high conviction rate.

Re:racism/xenophobia: Welcome to being a minority. If you think you are treated worse as a foreigner in Japan than a <colored> person (especially one who cannot speak the language fully) is in <your country>, you are delusional. I experienced far more xenophobia (including violence) living in USA as a white Canadian than I do in Japan as a visible minority. Japan has racial discrimination, but outright hate is nearly unheard of except among crazies in the black trucks.

vix86 Wrote:I think this point of your post is the one that bothered me most. When I first came to Japan I was flabbergasted at the level of respect and customer service you can get in Japan. Its very much a "customer is always right" sort of culture compared to the shit in the US. When I returned to the states for a short while after 6 months in Japan, I turned the lens of scrutiny on the way I was treated at businesses and stores. Some might argue that its a small thing to nitpick about about countries but we spend a lot of time at stores and buying things; so IMO its a very valid point of contention. In Japan you are treated almost like royalty at shops and stores, be they large corps or small conbinis. It can vary some, but compared to what I experienced in the US it was ridiculous. Point where it was hammered home so much was I decided to take the Greyhound to visit a friend while I was back for a month in the US. Some of the most spiteful people ever. But you can apply this to restaurants, walmart, public servants, etc. Its sad really because the concept of superior customer service was once a pentacle of American business I feel. When I return back from study abroad it only got worse when I decided to work part time at a Subway and got to experience the customers.
I think this can apply to interpersonal relations between people too. I think Japanese will bend over (more) backwards for their friends than many friends in the US but this is YMMV thing.
You would really have to give some examples of where you think US is better in terms of "nice" vs Japan "nice." Its fine if they are small things, because I realize its the "small things" that really matter when it comes to choosing which place you like over the other.

Okay, I'll give some examples. Just take the example of politeness when you're at a store. I think usually Japanese shopkeepers are very polite, and will never do anything that is impolite to a customer. They are also not personable, will not talk about themselves, and will not ask you about yourself. So most people are very polite but also not friendly (I realize now that I used to not be able to distinguish between the two--politeness seems friendly, but it's not actually the same thing).

In America shopkeepers are sometimes polite, but sometimes quite rude. But if for some reason they take an interest in you, they want to talk, or they are having a good day, they will be quite friendly and talk to you and have a real conversation.

So, Japanese shopkeepers range in politeness from polite to super-polite, but are generally very low on the friendliness scale. American shopkeepers range from not at all polite to polite, but also from not at all friendly to very friendly.

Both friendliness and politeness are 'nice'; Japan is doing way better in the politeness department and worse in the friendliness department.

When I was in New York in October for few days I walked into a little buy-your-morning-coffee-and-newspaper typa small store and ended up having quite a long fun conversation with the shopkeeper there and thinking, 'Wow, this does not happen in Japan.' The experience repeated itself multiple times over the course of my ten-or-so days in the states. Not that it NEVER happens in Japan, but it only happens once in a blue moon.

Japanese people have echoed the feeling of niceness in America/Canada to me many times. I have a Japanese friend who studied psychology in America for four years and all she talks about is how nice people were to her and how much they helped her out: people giving her rides, friends offering to do things for her, friends letting her stay at their house/apartment. When she told me the actual anecdotes I agreed with her, "Yeah, I guess you're right, that doesn't really happen in Japan." But, I had never realized it or thought about it before.

(There are a bunch of other examples. One I always think of is that Japanese people are far more likely to ignore bad situations that they don't want to deal with them. I was walking with a South African guy near the 御所 in Kyoto, and there was a guy pretty much passed out drunk in the winter. All the Japanese people who walked by didn't even look at him. It wasn't lke he was homeless. He was wearing a suit and looked like he had just drank too much with his office mates and thought he would be fine getting home. Anyway, we woke him up and made sure he was okay and all that, but nobody else did. In America people would generally help him except in certain very big cities that consider themselves tough.

Other ones are obvious, like people sort of ignoring when girls are being rubbed against by guys on the train and things like that. Americans would generally step in and stop the situation, but in Japan most people just kind of ignore it.

So, one nice thing Americans will do is help strangers when they think they need to be helped, even if the situation is awkward.

Of course, with all I've said, I'm just talking about how things generally go--of course there are Japanese and Americans who act differently or oppositely from the norm)

I did notice the politeness thing. While in Japan i'd often wish the shopkeepers would stop saying sorry for shit, like making me stand for 3 seconds before serving me.. I'm British.. we queue as a hobby! But when I came back to England, the first time inside a Tesco in 7 months and the girl at the counter served me without looking at me, while slumped in her seat.. I was taken back a little.
Like I said before, good points and bad points. Like every other country in the world.

^^Reading that other thread was a trip back
I was hell bent on just getting out of my job even if it meant just teaching English in Japan, which I've been and done (part time) and no, it's not for me. But I went and tried it, and now I know better. I still think its a step up from working the job I had, but definitely not a career path I want.

Everything I've heard about Japan leads to a certain conclusion; it's a great place to visit, but not so great a place to live in (as a foreigner).

That said I have no plans to go and live there although something like a student exchange would be interesting.

People please, tell me everything bad about Japan. I'm moving over there next week to be a software developer (at a western company).

I was there before for a year as an exchange student, and I'm excited to make it back. I feel like I learned a lot about what people have already said, but then again -- I was an exchange student with a set return date, not "living there" in the full sense.

I sometimes need to remind myself that it's just another place at another job...

The thing I hate most about Japan? The drivers are horrible. No one EVER stops at stop signs, at least three cars always blow through the light when it turns red, and cars never stop at crosswalks unless you just start walking and hope they stop (and even then they'll sometimes swerve into oncoming traffic to go around you instead of stopping). People do not look before crossing over the sidewalk area when turning at an intersection. They only look for oncoming cars that are a threat to them instead of trying to avoid hitting cyclists (who cannot severely damage the car). I would be dead many times over if I didn't ride so defensively (even then I've been within 1cm of being hit by a car full on at least 3 times and hit by the door mirror of a car twice. gf and exgf have both been hit by cars a few times).

Hit and runs are also the norm here (both hitting parked cars and hitting pedestrians/cyclists). Very few people take responsibility.

Much of this is probably because I live in Aichi (which has the most accidents per capita in Japan iirc). Though in the end it's because there is close to zero traffic enforcement by the police and there are frequently virtually no repercussions for having an accident (many insurance plans cover everything with no deductible, you just potentially get higher rates).

ronnihonjin Wrote:Many times I have had Japanese coworkers choose to knowingly "yobisute" me, that is drop all appropriate honorifics from my name. This may seem like a petty complaint, but when it is employed day in and day out and knowingly used in a manner which is intended to belittle you, it can become quite grating. I cannot speak for everyone, and perhaps this won`t bother you as much, but no matter the racial or linguistic origins of a coworker back home, I would always endeavour to treat them in the same manner as everyone else. This includes using their name in the manner appropriate in our country of residence, thus Taro Tanaka would, if we were in my home country, be referred to as Mr. Tanaka and not Mr. Taro, whereas in Japan you as John Smith are very likely to be called John, or John-san as opposed to Smith, Smith-san or Smith-sensei (irrelevant of whether you fill out the form correctly, or inform peole of which is your Family and which is your Personal name), although your coworkers will refer to each other in the correct fashion, replete with appropriate use of the sensei/san honorific.

This used to bother me too but now I realize it's not racism and certainly not meant to belittle you in any way. I was taking some cooking classes a while back and one of the old ladies in the class kept calling me by my first name without san and I was getting SO annoyed by it. She had lived in America for a little while so was really fascinated by my "Americanness" and kept following me around the kitchen using my first name without san the whole time even though I was trying to avoid her. When my husband got home that night I started bitching to him about this lady who kept calling me by my first name (even though we were wearing name tags and I have a Japanese last name so it would have been just as easy for her to call me by my last name.) and my husband just kind of laughed and said, "That's what she thinks she supposed to do. She thinks that's the "American way" and that that's how you want to be called."

I think Americans (I can only speak for Americans here) tend to have the perspective of "this is America, you need to do things the way we do them in America." Kind of like, "hurry up and assimilate." I think Americans see this as, "the quicker you fit in with us the better your life will be." But, Japanese tend to have the perspective of, "the more 'at home' we can make the person feel then the better their life will be, so let's try to do things the way they would do them in their home country for them as much as possible." Plus, I find that Japanese just, generally, tend to have much more of a fascination with foreign cultures and just think it's "cool" to do things in a "foreign" way. They just like the novelty.

A big way that I see this is with language. In America, if a, let's say, Mexican person were to approach us and we could see that they were struggling to speak English, we would realize that they are trying to speak our language and try to be patient with them even if we spoke Spanish quite well. We would appreciate the effort that they were making and try to help them speak English. But, in Japan, if a foreigner is struggling to speak Japanese, the Japanese person will think, "Oh this person is really having a hard time. Let me try to speak English to make them feel better and more at ease."

Quote:Another point when it comes to politeness or lack thereof is the tendency of (particularly older) Japanese to refer to you as gaijin or gaijin-san as opposed to your country of origin, or any other number or appropriate modes of address ( e.g. Onii-san, or your BLOODY name even after having been told what it is.) This again smacks of discrimination and would be equivalent to me insisting upon calling Japanese people I meet in England, "Mr. Gook" or "Mr. Chink" instead of their names.

But, you are gaijin, are you not? Calling someone gaijin is nowhere near equivilant to chink or gook. Gaijin is not a racist word any more than foreigner is a racist word.

I actually had a student who was going to the London Olympics and so was reading up on British culture and she read somewhere that you shouldn't call someone a foreigner but should call them by their nationality and we both thought that was kind of interesting. I guess I had never thought about it but, yeah, in English calling someone a foreigner is a bit impolite sounding. But, there really is no reason that one should be considered better than another. They are both true. It's just the way we choose to address people versus the way Japanese tend to address people.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Those who rant about the legal system or racism in Japan frankly need a bit of perspective. The percentage of people incarcerated in the USA far exceeds any other country on the planet and legal fees for a defense are outrageous. While there is room for criticism regarding the pre-trial treatment of suspects (though at least you won't get shanked or raped), the prosecution only bringing trials to court for cases it is sure it will win explains most of the high conviction rate.

The US privatized their prison system and between lobbying and that; thats why the incarceration rate is retarded in the US.
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Also, being a minority in Japan can be a good thing, so people shouldn't play it off as necessarily a bad thing.

Tzadeck Wrote:

vix86 Wrote:I think this point of your post is the one that bothered me most. When I first came to Japan I was flabbergasted at the level of respect and customer service you can get in Japan. Its very much a "customer is always right" sort of culture compared to the shit in the US. When I returned to the states for a short while after 6 months in Japan, I turned the lens of scrutiny on the way I was treated at businesses and stores. Some might argue that its a small thing to nitpick about about countries but we spend a lot of time at stores and buying things; so IMO its a very valid point of contention. In Japan you are treated almost like royalty at shops and stores, be they large corps or small conbinis. It can vary some, but compared to what I experienced in the US it was ridiculous. Point where it was hammered home so much was I decided to take the Greyhound to visit a friend while I was back for a month in the US. Some of the most spiteful people ever. But you can apply this to restaurants, walmart, public servants, etc. Its sad really because the concept of superior customer service was once a pentacle of American business I feel. When I return back from study abroad it only got worse when I decided to work part time at a Subway and got to experience the customers.
I think this can apply to interpersonal relations between people too. I think Japanese will bend over (more) backwards for their friends than many friends in the US but this is YMMV thing.
You would really have to give some examples of where you think US is better in terms of "nice" vs Japan "nice." Its fine if they are small things, because I realize its the "small things" that really matter when it comes to choosing which place you like over the other.

Okay, I'll give some examples. Just take the example of politeness when you're at a store. I think usually Japanese shopkeepers are very polite, and will never do anything that is impolite to a customer. They are also not personable, will not talk about themselves, and will not ask you about yourself. So most people are very polite but also not friendly (I realize now that I used to not be able to distinguish between the two--politeness seems friendly, but it's not actually the same thing).

In America shopkeepers are sometimes polite, but sometimes quite rude. But if for some reason they take an interest in you, they want to talk, or they are having a good day, they will be quite friendly and talk to you and have a real conversation.

So, Japanese shopkeepers range in politeness from polite to super-polite, but are generally very low on the friendliness scale. American shopkeepers range from not at all polite to polite, but also from not at all friendly to very friendly.

Both friendliness and politeness are 'nice'; Japan is doing way better in the politeness department and worse in the friendliness department.

When I was in New York in October for few days I walked into a little buy-your-morning-coffee-and-newspaper typa small store and ended up having quite a long fun conversation with the shopkeeper there and thinking, 'Wow, this does not happen in Japan.' The experience repeated itself multiple times over the course of my ten-or-so days in the states. Not that it NEVER happens in Japan, but it only happens once in a blue moon.

Japanese people have echoed the feeling of niceness in America/Canada to me many times. I have a Japanese friend who studied psychology in America for four years and all she talks about is how nice people were to her and how much they helped her out: people giving her rides, friends offering to do things for her, friends letting her stay at their house/apartment. When she told me the actual anecdotes I agreed with her, "Yeah, I guess you're right, that doesn't really happen in Japan." But, I had never realized it or thought about it before.

A lot of this is quite heavily YMMV stuff. A friend of mine was able to come to Japan and stay at the apartments of friends he met during study abroad. People will offer rides all the time, even complete strangers, I've heard of multiple people hitchhiking across Japan. I think much of this though might be a result of the fact that JP-JP interaction is different from JP-Foreigner, both countries.

I will agree with you though. "Friendly" isn't something shopkeepers do often, but I've written that off as a "Japanese culture" thing. The hill to cross for any person to be considered "a friend" can be pretty steep. This is one of those things you accept with the culture or simply just go home *shrugs*. Personally I just like my store clerks to be polite and helpful, I don't need them getting all buddy-buddy with me. It does go a long way of making you feel "welcome" but I suspect if they did that with Japanese people though (the clerks), it might put many people off. The extent of interaction at stores is usually small talk, "うわ～寒いです。　　ええ、寒いですね。”

Quote:In America people would generally help him except in certain very big cities that consider themselves tough.

Other ones are obvious, like people sort of ignoring when girls are being rubbed against by guys on the train and things like that. Americans would generally step in and stop the situation, but in Japan most people just kind of ignore it.

So, one nice thing Americans will do is help strangers when they think they need to be helped, even if the situation is awkward.

Of course, with all I've said, I'm just talking about how things generally go--of course there are Japanese and Americans who act differently or oppositely from the norm)

I would be exceptionally careful how broad of a stroke you paint with this one. While I think that Japanese are more prone to turning a blind eye because of involving themselves in something that might embarrass both parties. You do need to realize that people ignoring a case or situation where someone might need help is common everywhere. I encourage you to read up on The Bystander effect. It gained extreme attention in the media when a woman was murdered/stabbed in broad daylight on a busy street and no one helped. This was in the US as well.

Asriel Wrote:People please, tell me everything bad about Japan. I'm moving over there next week to be a software developer (at a western company).

So jealous...

Jarvik7 Wrote:The thing I hate most about Japan? The drivers are horrible. No one EVER stops at stop signs, at least three cars always blow through the light when it turns red, and cars never stop at crosswalks unless you just start walking and hope they stop (and even then they'll sometimes swerve into oncoming traffic to go around you instead of stopping). People do not look before crossing over the sidewalk area when turning at an intersection. They only look for oncoming cars that are a threat to them instead of trying to avoid hitting cyclists (who cannot severely damage the car). I would be dead many times over if I didn't ride so defensively (even then I've been within 1cm of being hit by a car full on at least 3 times and hit by the door mirror of a car twice. gf and exgf have both been hit by cars a few times).

Hit and runs are also the norm here (both hitting parked cars and hitting pedestrians/cyclists). Very few people take responsibility.

Much of this is probably because I live in Aichi (which has the most accidents per capita in Japan iirc). Though in the end it's because there is close to zero traffic enforcement by the police and there are frequently virtually no repercussions for having an accident (many insurance plans cover everything with no deductible, you just potentially get higher rates).

OMFG, until you mentioned it, it didn't some to mind. I hate driving anywhere. Generally my rage is contained within the car (maybe thats how bad it is that I blank it out). I could go on and on about Japanese drivers. I can not get over how bad and dangerous it is here. Its not just drivers though, its a combination of just ***** stupid people, which includes pedestrians as well. Honestly, if I only had to worry about drivers it would be ok, but I have to worry about ***** stupid drivers on the road PLUS be on the look out for the odd dimwit that is just going to ride their bike or walk straight into the road and expect cars to yield before them like they are god. I've seen people stop their car and park dead middle of the road to get out and get a pack of cigs. I've seen people stop and park on hills with curves so you have to go around and have no idea if a car is speeding around the curve. I've seen people slam their brakes on last moment and throw a signal on to turn. The obsession with backing into parking spots here (even when there isn't really a need too). The speed limit is ridiculous low for my patience. Road infrastructure is retarded. GPS is required if you need to go anywhere new to you. This is just stuff I can think of right now.

They don't police traffic that much, which I'm somewhat fine with. But heaven help you if you get a speeding ticket lol...