At least Japanese people aren't yelling about how "Dey Tuk R Jarbs!"

Betelgeuzah Wrote:I remember reading an article a while ago where some I think Canadian guy was turned back on the airport and was forced to buy a plane ticket and fly back to Canada right there and then because of issues with his visa. While the guy came off as all kinds of shady and the story in itself was dramatized heavily there still was a lot of unacceptable things he had to go through in the whole process no matter what his background were.

That turned out to be mostly self-contradicting fabrication to cover up the fact that the guy was an illegal immigrant who was finally found out. It also had nothing to do with law enforcement or immigration (other then the initial denial of entry). He was handled by a private security firm and the made up parts of the rest of the story makes what he said about them suspect. No doubt his abrasive attitude didn't help his treatment. Even Debito distanced himself from the guy.

I doubt uncooperative deportees are treated well in any other country...

About shopkeepers-----

If they are not personable and will not ask me about my private life, how come I got 50 questions and the usual `nihongo umai desu ne` dribble from the pharmacist yesterday for ten minutes when I was just trying to buy canker sore cream?

Psh, I don't care if I get called gaijin. I think it sounds cool!

However, you have made me really paranoid about the police now. I'm especially worried about them keeping my passport if I'm asked to hand it over; meaning the next time I get asked for it I'll get quickly deported even though it's not really my fault. Has anyone had any experience with this? Is there some sort of US embassy in Japan I could contact if that happens?

I'm not planning to go to Japan any time soon, so it's not a big deal, but I'd really like to know. Maybe in the next couple of years the situations there will change and foreigners will have more rights.

Diana Wrote:About shopkeepers-----

If they are not personable and will not ask me about my private life, how come I got 50 questions and the usual `nihongo umai desu ne` dribble from the pharmacist yesterday for ten minutes when I was just trying to buy canker sore cream?

I'm willing to bet that as your Japanese gets better and better this will happen to you less and less...

(Besides, the way I phrased my post allowed for exceptions like this)

LivingNexus Wrote:However, you have made me really paranoid about the police now. I'm especially worried about them keeping my passport if I'm asked to hand it over; meaning the next time I get asked for it I'll get quickly deported even though it's not really my fault.

Have you ever heard of an officer keeping someone's passport? Because I never have.

Actually, I've never been asked by police for identification.

`I'm willing to bet that as your Japanese gets better and better this will happen to you less and less...`


Nope, happens more and more actually. And not meaning to brag, but I will be the first to admit while my reading and writing is still not that great, my speaking has, is, and will always be my strong point

It`s just f-ing tatemae, I know that, but it is annoying when I just want to hurry up and take a bath at home, instead of having a conversation about if I am student, or how long I have been in Japan, or omygosh, I work for a Japanese company, or anything like.

And (this is going to sound really funny)

I was asked by the police for my gaikokujin card in Narita airport and once on my bicycle in Kyoto. (The former was bored I think, and the latter was investigating PURSE robberies that had occured in the area)

And in a really ironic twist of fate, both phrased me on how umai my nihongo was while checking out my ID. Haha, go figure.

It could just be that you have a personality that somehow draws people into talking you. But in my experience, and I think a lot of others would agree, as your Japanese gets better less people say that to you. (Part of it, I've always suspected, is also cultural. As you live in Japan longer and longer you kind of start to act more Japanese, and people start to treat you more Japanese--which I guess includes not commenting on your language ability.)

When I was N4/3 level people said that to me all the time. I'm N1 level now and almost no one ever says that to me.

I've definitely had friends be stopped by the police for identification, but just not myself.

I've been stopped 5 times in 4 years, 3 times were on a bike. I avoid the police when riding my bike now if I'm in a hurry :$

sometimes instead of 日本語が上手 I get 日本人の方ですか

and i have to say "no, i'm terrible at conversation"



i was stopped twice by police.
in one instance i was walking around kyoto station. i kinda got lost looking for friends and he asked what i was doing/where i was going.
the other instance i was hanging around tokyo station trying to figure out what to do and what omiyage to get when 2 plainclothes officers come up to me and ask me in japanese where my hometown is... i was like "uhh... america?" and they asked to see my passport.



racism in the US varies since it's so big and there are different attitudes depending on which part of the country you're in, then which city you're in, then which part of the city you're in...

six8ten Wrote:Recently there was a push to get the bicycles off the sidewalks and onto the roads, one of the cited reasons for which is bicycle-pedestrian collisions. First thing I thought was that the increase of pedestrian-bike accidents will go down at the cost of an increase in automobile-bicycle collisions. Looking into it more, however, it appears that they are actually designating bike routes along less congested routes and actually creating bike lanes on several of those routes, so perhaps it won't be such an increase. In my immediate area, however, the sidewalks actually have designated bike lanes, so it is legal to ride on those sidewalks at least.

This was probably the number one thing that annoyed me walking around Japan. I would be walking on a sidewalk that had a designated bike lane but still people would be riding on my side, and riding out in front of me without looking. :/ It was like playing a real-life game of frogger. If I'm in England and someone has the cheek to cycle on the sidewalk I'd stop them and tell them to cycle on the road! It's just not done.

Discrimination.
The major points that I have seen/heard are what you would call "racial profiling." I have heard black people get stopped on the streets more often than white people and asked for passport/ARCard. Some even get stopped by the same cop consecutively in the same neighborhood. Hotels will sometimes also try to photocopy passports of residents or those with ARCs when they aren't suppose to. Ive never had any issue with this except for once. Usually if you show the card they go "ok" and ask you to fill in an address.

Hyperborea Wrote:I think a lot of people posting about "how horrible it is to be a foreigner in Japan" have no idea what it's like being a foreigner anywhere else. Just about everything that's posted is not much different from being a foreigner in the US except less severe. They sound to me mostly like people who've left their place of "privilege", more often than not Americans, and are unused to not being top dog in the society.

The US is a heterogeneous society with people of multiple ethnic backgrounds. Most of the cases that often get noted as "racial discrimination" in Japan are often people just freaking out that "Holy shit its a white person!!!." Sometimes its a amazement/curiosity and other times its a bit of fear. Thing is, in the US people are at least use to other people of different colors. Might they still discriminate? Ya. They might use racial slurs, or react differently once you open your mouth and show you aren't American. But they aren't freaking out like crazy because "Holy cow its a black guy; stare at him from the corner of your eye." "Give him 3 person radius while walking on the street."

Diana Wrote:I was asked by the police for my gaikokujin card in Narita airport and once on my bicycle in Kyoto. (The former was bored I think, and the latter was investigating PURSE robberies that had occured in the area)

This actually reminds me of a funny difference between police at Narita vs the TSA *****-tards. If you sit/stand around at Narita for too long the police WILL eventually walk up to you and ask you for your passport (if you look foreign). Funniest thing is they are always so nice about it which is not my image of police or TSA in the US at all. They're all apologies about it and crap. They'll take it and write down the information and what not.

Jarvik7 Wrote:At least Japanese people aren't yelling about how "Dey Tuk R Jarbs!" big_smile

Give it 10-20 years and they'll be begging saying: "TEK R JARBS!!!"

vix86 Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:At least Japanese people aren't yelling about how "Dey Tuk R Jarbs!" big_smile

Give it 10-20 years and they'll be begging saying: "TEK R JARBS!!!"

Oh but they have. Far right wing groups forced the JET Eastern Japan Alumni Group to shut down the yearly job fair they held for JET program participants interested in staying and working in Japan. They accomplished this by harassing and "group stalking" the person in charge of organizing the event until he eventually got fed up and *left* Japan. This was about 4 years ago and they haven't tried to organize the event since.

I just came back from my first trip in Japan. It was 31 days long and all the time I stayed in Okinawa, pretty laid back place.
As a pedestrian 100% of the cars stopped and let me pass when I was crossing small streets (without lights). This rarely happens to me in Romania or never in China (I lived here 6 months and Im staying two more).

So yeah, people are happier in Okinawa, they laugh and eat all day. Dunno about crazy crowded Tokyo.

What I didn't like:
- they know less english then I imagined. I started my japanese (RTK just) only the day I arrived so I couldnt talk more than "Excuse, can I have this one and one beer? thx"
- its expensive (kinda knew it).
- Police/immigration officials. Our country gets a 90 visa on arrival. The officer at the Naha airport maybe didn't know too much english or he didnt like me and my answers. "Why you stay one month? Its too much...", please wait for an interview with someone else. I was thinking 'If they refuse my entry, this will be the only reason for stopping me learning japanese" (I was just starting and bought alot of materials).
I was dressed nice & expensive for this. So we talked about 10 minutes and I got my visa only after I told them I'm learning japanese and show them Jimi's books (hiragana for kids) and about a half marathon race I want to run (I knew the exact place and date; didn't go in the end).
After this the same notfriendly officer showed me a list with forbidden items and I said yes, I have some pirated dvds (pokemon and Elite Yankee Saburo ). After they confiscated those they search everything in my luggages, xraying my laptop also. No problem, it was over. "If you spend all your money you are not allowed to work in Japan" was their last word, but it wasn't mean and I knew that rule.

You guy must spend some weeks in China to see the way people behave. You'll love japanese after. Chinese smoke in your face, spit everywhere, retch, always try to get in front of you in a queue, drive like mad, aren't silent at all ANYWHERE (except temples maybe). Oh man, what nice and silent was in the yui rail in Okinawa!
Chinese also stare at you, japanese aren't.

Like someone else I know what I like: the girls, the food, some movies and some parts of the culture. I don't mind being called gaijin (see my nick?; also I knew before I started to study that there are clubs/places where foreigners are not allowed). I knew about police (is the police nice in any country btw?) and some laws. If you didnt do it till now, please read Tokyo Vice by J. Adelstein.
I already posted this link in the 'japanese wife' topic: http://www.cracked.com/article_19363_6-r...k-out.html

Anywas, I think the new immigration laws are better and more foreigners get jobs.

Oh I forgot, in a Lawson store one employeed didnt say "thank you good bye" when I left. Should I get upset like I'm the Emperor or something? )

Actually I was let down by the video game arcades.

Too much クレーンゲーム.

hmm... let's see.

Police: I've been stopped twice while on my bike, both times in the same area. One time it was 2 undercover police who suddenly rode up beside me and asked for id, they then asked where I bought the bike, called up the store and confirmed some number written on the bike. I was asked to show my id once at the ferry terminal to Pusan at Shimonoseki, by two plain-clothes "police". I used quote marks because to this day I still think there was something odd about them, they seemed really unprofessional, and one of them looked 17 or something. Maybe it was training or something...
Other than those 3 occasions, nothing in 4.5 years.

As for racism, I can't say I've experienced any. As has been mentioned the 外人扱い tends to more or less disappear once you can speak/act Japanese fairly well. The word 外人never really bothered me. I think political correctness is a little overboard in some parts of the world. I also wonder if a lot of the complaints of being treated differently comes from the parallel reality that is being an ALT. People who work with ALTs are I think used to a revolving door of foreigners who can't speak Japanese, are usually quite young and inexperienced etc. It's very different after you become a normal employee working at a normal company, speaking japanese daily with japanese colleagues. Any handholding and special treatment ends.

re the law. One thing I've noticed is you tend to hear a lot about fraud (オレオレ詐欺 etc). I don't know if just because it's reported more, or there's some societal reason for it.

vix86 Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:Many white families in the west would have similar reactions if a daughter brought home a black man. Current gf's family is great (though they are jealous that she spends so much time with me).

You'd probably be surprised the people you know that would take up this stance too. When I was visitng relatives and telling them about my time in Japan; my cousin commented that I'll probably bring home a Japanese fiance. My grandmother reacted with a "He better not~!" Which I found both funny (because I like Asians more than white girls) and shocking cause I never expected that kind of reaction from her. I'm not 100% sure how my parents would react, though I think they expect I'll marry a Japanese girl. My family line has been strictly white for as far back as most can remember; planning to change that though.

EDIT:

Quote:the real crux of the matter is that in our Western societies racism is now a crime. If one is discriminated against institutionally that is ILLEGAL. This is not the case in Japan, where we are not even afforded basic HUMAN RIGHTS.

I didn't see this till kitakitsune pointed it out. I basically glossed over it.

Japan has anti-discrimination laws. It took a while for them to get put in place and only came after a quite of bit of pressure I believe. They didn't exist till up to like 30 years ago? The problem is that there are a number of loop holes and the cases that do exist are kind of grey area and may not fall exactly under the laws. Fact is, that many laws go unenforced in Japan. Police will turn a blind eye to many problems and things that are illegal either because they don't want to deal with the paperwork or because they are getting money under the table for it.

Here are some sources and examples for Kitakitsune

Anti racist/discriminatory legislation

UK: The Race Relations Act 1976 and all of its amendments and extensions protect individuals from being discriminated against in employment on the grounds of colour, race, nationality, religious beliefs or ethnicity. This Act does not distinguish between whether racist practices were done on purpose or not, it is concerned only with the fact that racial discrimination occurred.

Ireland: Employment equality Act 1998 and the Equality Act 2004

EU: Racial Equality Directive 2000/43/EC (please bear in mind that an EU directive is enforceable across the entire European Union, thus this directive would technically apply to all member states)

As for Japan failing to uphold its agreements set out in the 1965 UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, the Otaru onsen case itself would be a good example of that, considering it was stated earlier that Debito had to pick up the tab for both sides apparently. It is also interesting to note that Japanese officials have claimed before that there can be no racism in Japan as there is only one race, the Japanese race, in Japan.

Japan has also been criticised by the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination as recently as 2010, and prior to that in 2001.

consider also the "gaijin ka" listings for apartments. This would fall afoul of our Anti-racism legislation in Europe, but not in Japan. The point is not that we have no racism in Europe, quite the contrary, the point is that while we are combating it with legislation, the Japanese are not.


As far as the police are concerned, it was not my intention to imply that they were out to get foreigners exclusively or anything of the sort, it is however the unfortunate case, that if you do happen to run afoul of them, you have no rights, nothing. It is just you, a concrete cell and choubatsu. Mr. Hiroshi Ichikawa, a former public prosecutor in Saga-ken was kind enough to put this in quite simple terminology, "ヤクザと外国人に人権はないと教えられた"

The Japanese constitution also frustratingly contains provisions defending the rights of 国民 (kokumin- citizens, or nationals) Thus any hope for the protection of the human rights offered under the constitution here are in vain, unless one is a Japanese citizen. The Japanese courts have also found this to be the case.


Also with regards to Jarvik7 bringing up police corruption, that is another thing which has disappointed me in Japan, the sheer levels of corruption here. Before I came, I had the silly notion for whatever reason, that Japan would not have much corruption.....

Also possibly unconnected, but I cant help but think about it now. While it is not disputed at all that petty theft in Japan is extremely rare and one would struggle to lose a wallet here, it will never cease to amaze me how willing people in suits in Japan are to rob you blind. Case in point deposits and bribes required to move into an apartment or any number of special gentei offers on keitai or other gadgets and gizmos.

ronnihonjin Wrote:The Japanese constitution also frustratingly contains provisions defending the rights of 国民 (kokumin- citizens, or nationals) Thus any hope for the protection of the human rights offered under the constitution here are in vain, unless one is a Japanese citizen. The Japanese courts have also found this to be the case.

And what has the Japanese Supreme Court said about article 14 being applied to people in Japan who are not citizens?

Nope, im n1 too and continually still get it. Especially at the doctors, especially at the gynos. Like, pay attention please instead to the task at hand.

kitakitsune Wrote:

ronnihonjin Wrote:The Japanese constitution also frustratingly contains provisions defending the rights of 国民 (kokumin- citizens, or nationals) Thus any hope for the protection of the human rights offered under the constitution here are in vain, unless one is a Japanese citizen. The Japanese courts have also found this to be the case.

And what has the Japanese Supreme Court said about article 14 being applied to people in Japan who are not citizens?

思うに、憲法第三章の諸規定による基本的人権の保障は、権利の性質上日本国民のみをその対象としていると解されるものを除き、わが国に在留する外国人に対しても等しく及ぶものと解すべきであり、政治活動の自由についても、わが国の政治的意思決定又はその実施に影響を及ぼす活動等外国人の地位にかんがみこれを認めることが相当でないと解されるものを除き、その保障が及ぶものと解するのが、相当である。

here you are. An excerpt from the case McLean v Minister of Justice, 1978. essentially the court has acknowledged that the guarantee of fundamental rights included in Chapter Three of the Constitution extends also to foreign nationals staying in Japan except for those rights, which by their nature, are understood to address Japanese nationals only.

Fantastic, those rights, which by their very nature are understood to address Japanese nationals only......Im glad that was cleared up, no way that gaping wide loophole could be used to the detriment of Johnny foreigner. Anyway if you really are interested in the opinions of a legal expert, might I suggest reading this article by Colin Jones

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/fl20111101a1.html

kitakitsune Wrote:

vix86 Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:At least Japanese people aren't yelling about how "Dey Tuk R Jarbs!" big_smile

Give it 10-20 years and they'll be begging saying: "TEK R JARBS!!!"

Oh but they have. Far right wing groups forced the JET Eastern Japan Alumni Group to shut down the yearly job fair they held for JET program participants interested in staying and working in Japan. They accomplished this by harassing and "group stalking" the person in charge of organizing the event until he eventually got fed up and *left* Japan. This was about 4 years ago and they haven't tried to organize the event since.

I think you misunderstood my post.

I was saying that here in 10-20 years Japan will be saying "Please come take our jobs!" because they won't have the labor force to keep the entire country functioning. A 1/3 of the population is set to retire here in the coming decades. Thats a shit-ton of people for a country that has had a negative population growth for at least a decade now.

ronnihonjin Wrote:@gaijin ka apartment and @key money

I've heard in recent years that getting apartments as a foreigner has become significantly easier compared to how bad it was in the 80s and 90s for instance. A big problem with the apartment situation is that old grannys tend to be the land lords for these places and they don't know any English or <insert foreign language>. So many of them just flat out turn away foreigners because of this. I have heard of people being able to get these apartments after proving to the landlord that they can speak Japanese well enough that language won't be a barrier. These days if you are living in a mansion or a large apartment (ex: 2LDK), usually they are corporate properties and the only thing they care about is money; they could care less about your skin color.

Key money is defiantly an issue though. In the more populated and urban-ish places of Japan though you are quickly finding that many places are dropping key money altogether. Why? Free market capitalism. The apartment market has become a race to the bottom for trying to offer the best price and get tenants. It still exists in places.

vix86 Wrote:I was saying that here in 10-20 years Japan will be saying "Please come take our jobs!" because they won't have the labor force to keep the entire country functioning. A 1/3 of the population is set to retire here in the coming decades.

Maybe this situation will spur the Japanese government into retooling their legislation on foreigners. I really hope so, because from what you guys have told me, I would NEVER move to Japan permanently unless it was to work for an American company that would make sure to take care of me. XD

It's not that bad. If you abide the law, you won't have any problems. Might get refused from renting an apartment. The worst thing are the work hours really.

Tzadeck Wrote:This thread reminded me a bit of the introduction to Read Real Japanese Fiction. The editor talks about how learning a langauge is like taking a very long train ride, but you don't know where the train is going. What will you think of the place you arrive at? Who knows? The way learning a language will change your life is not clear. Maybe you'll be interested in something you never knew about before. Maybe you'll meet people who will change your life. Maybe you'll have experiences you don't like. But you should just be excited that life is going to be interesting, and you never know what is going to hapen.

Couldn't say it any better! Thanks!!

Japan hasn't let me down yet. I will say it is definitely better to be a tourist there than to work there though. The only thing that have truly bothered me about Japan is the police. I didn't really care for them telling me that I stole a bicycle just because I happened to buy one when I got to the hostel I was staying at. I just showed them the proof and they went away. Make sure to ALWAYS carry your passport on you when you go!

Hashiriya Wrote:Japan hasn't let me down yet. I will say it is definitely better to be a tourist there than to work there though. The only thing that have truly bothered me about Japan is the police. I didn't really care for them telling me that I stole a bicycle just because I happened to buy one when I got to the hostel I was staying at. I just showed them the proof and they went away. Make sure to ALWAYS carry your passport on you when you go!

Having found out I have to do this instead of leaving it in the apartment I'm worried I'll end up losing it...