I really want a motorcycle but drivers here are just too dangerous for me to seriously consider it (especially after one of my biker coworkers was creamed by a taxi on the way to work). More than anything, drivers here lack situational awareness. They seem to only stare directly ahead with tunnel vision or at their navi screen.

I have a license but just have my gf drive us around since she has a car (I live downtown so just a parking space is over 20,000 per month if I wanted one). She is also a crap driver (backed into her uncle's Mercedes over new years despite having a backup camera)

thistime Wrote:I think Americans (I can only speak for Americans here) tend to have the perspective of "this is America, you need to do things the way we do them in America." Kind of like, "hurry up and assimilate." I think Americans see this as, "the quicker you fit in with us the better your life will be."

Holy....this has never occurred to me but I think its very accurate now that I think about how I am somewhat with the language and drives me to work hard at it. The whole "If you are X country you should (try to) speak their language!"

Quote:Plus, I find that Japanese just, generally, tend to have much more of a fascination with foreign cultures and just think it's "cool" to do things in a "foreign" way. They just like the novelty.

This is why eikaiwa has been such a lucrative business for many.

Quote:They are both true. It's just the way we choose to address people versus the way Japanese tend to address people.

Its all about being politically correct. Even Japanese don't use 外人 anymore its all 外国人 because the former is no longer politically correct. There are lists for these words in the language (which NHK uses), just google: 放送禁止用語 for a huge list of "no-no" words.

thistime Wrote:But, you are gaijin, are you not? Calling someone gaijin is nowhere near equivilant to chink or gook. Gaijin is not a racist word any more than foreigner is a racist word.

I don't know about you but calling someone foreigner comes off as extremely rude to me lol. I can't even think of a situation where that would be appropriate to address someone directly.

Not that I think it's racist though. There's this odd trend to call everything racist which is dumb.

vix86 Wrote:Its all about being politically correct. Even Japanese don't use 外人 anymore its all 外国人 because the former is no longer politically correct. There are lists for these words in the language (which NHK uses), just google: 放送禁止用語 for a huge list of "no-no" words.

Words that you can't use in broadcasts. That doesn't necessarily that people don't use those words in real life. Whether or not you find it offensive, and whether or not it's meant to be offensive will still vary vastly from person to person.

edit: Of course, I'm just talking about the word itself. If they just call you 外人 or 外人さん, as opposed to a name, then yeah, that's kind of different. I wouldn't call someone "foreigner" in English either. I have no problem describing someone as "a foreigner," but I wouldn't refer to them by the name.

...Maybe "the foreigner" if I'm talking about them to someone else and it's convenient. I also use such endearing terms as "dipshit" and "photoshop" when referring to people at work.

Asriel Wrote:edit: Of course, I'm just talking about the word itself. If they just call you 外人 or 外人さん, as opposed to a name, then yeah, that's kind of different. I wouldn't call someone "foreigner" in English either. I have no problem describing someone as "a foreigner," but I wouldn't refer to them by the name.

Yes, you're right. I wouldn't call someone, "Hey, foreigner!" But, I don't think I've ever been called, "外人" or "外人さん" as my name either and I would find that quite off-putting so maybe the other poster has just had experiences I haven't.

Ex gf's grandmother used to refer to me as カナダさん and asked if my blood was red or if that was just Japanese people.
Ex's mother warned her not to date me because I might murder her if she dumped me. Her grandfather was never told we were dating (just that I was her friend) because it might kill him (he was like 85 years old & fought in WW2).

This doesn't make Japan racist, it just makes my ex's family racist (actually her father & brother really liked me and kept telling ex to be a better gf). Many white families in the west would have similar reactions if a daughter brought home a black man. Current gf's family is great (though they are jealous that she spends so much time with me).

I`m glad to see that this topic is getting a fair discussion and hasn`t yet descended into a slagging match. I would just like to respond to a couple of points that have been made since my last post.

Law: It was argued by Jarvik7 that perspective is needed when discussing the legal system in Japan. I think this is certainly the case. I would also stress that comparisons between Japan and the United States ONLY are another of those things that annoys me in Japan. The United States has it`s own legal difficulties certainly, but using that to defend Japan is a very poor argument. Frankly as it stands in Japan, from the perspective of a European, the legal system here is one far more suited to a third world dictatorship, than one of the wealthier countries in the world (but then again i suppose money does not equal fairness


Racism/Xenophobia: This is probably the topic that divides most people in this debate. Most people will probably have far differing levels of what kinds of "racism" they are willing to tolerate, how bad they think minorities in their own countries are treated and so on. I would like to say though, that while some may criticise debito for his methods, his is a thankless job and Japan certainly needs more people like him agitating for change here. Let`s not forget the disgraceful treatment received by himself (and his more "foreign looking" daughter in the Otaru onsen case. It is also important to remember that foreigners in Japan often are not at all a cohesive unit and often leave within a short time, thus reducing their likelihood to lobby for any sort of change, making us arguably our own enemies....as evidenced by the many times a reasonable point is shot down with the "if you don`t like it leave" line. (whether this is a deliberate policy on Japan`s behalf or not is another matter)

As far as the treatment of "coloured" people in our own countries, they may indeed also be subject to discrimination and "racism" (although I would argue that is far less socially acceptable than it is here, at least in the British Isles), as are we in Japan (call a spade a spade, the sooner we do away with this "white people can`t be subject to racism" mentality the better), the real crux of the matter is that in our Western societies racism is now a crime. If one is discriminated against institutionally that is ILLEGAL. This is not the case in Japan, where we are not even afforded basic HUMAN RIGHTS. While I`m certainly not going to compare myself to an "untermensch" living in the Third Reich, I think it`s about time Japan cleaned it`s act up in this regard and if it refuses to do so, those of us with an interest in equality in Japan should lobby for UN sanctions against the Government of Japan.

"But, you are gaijin, are you not? Calling someone gaijin is nowhere near equivilant to chink or gook. Gaijin is not a racist word any more than foreigner is a racist word." was said by I think thistime. I`m glad you backtracked on this a little bit, because I honestly can`t agree with that statement in any form. The word gaijin is just as bad as "chink", "gook", "chinaman" or any number of racial epithets because it strips us of our identity. Referring to me as "gaijin-san" is in my mind one of the rudest ways to address me in the Japanese language. It is dehumanising and places me firmly on the outside of team Japan, looking forlornly through the window. Not only am I placed on the outside of team Japan, I am also not even allowed to be associated with my home country and end up in some sort of bastardised concoction of Amerika and every other country in the world. This is strangely enough often NOT the case with other Asian nationals, who tend to get a chuugokujin or kankokujin label etc.

Also at Asriel: it might indeed be better referred to as "discriminatory", but there is an awful tendency here to, as i mentioned above, not use it for Asian nationals as much, which leads me to think that its a "white face=gaijin" kind of mindset, which is in my opinion, racist.

Also with regards to Jarvik7`s almost-family-in-law calling you kanada-san and asking if you`re blood is red, that is a prime example of the "ware-ware" unique japan mindset in action, absolutely disgraceful in this day and age. Your exes mother might also be happy to know that statistically speaking white foreigners are less likely to commit crimes in Japan than Japanese nationals, therefore not only was her comment rude, it was also completely unfounded.

None of those things make Japan racist, but they do indicate a greater propensity towards racism here and far more societal acceptability. The law however DOES make Japan racist.


I fear I have written another book, so I`ll just say this. As far as the people wanting to come to Japan are concerned, while it`s important to read these comments and posts about the negative aspects of Japan, don`t forget that this is a forum where we are letting off a little steam. Even though my comments might come across as bitter, Japan still has it`s great points. However when asked about disappointments in a forum like this, one is far more likely to remember the 10% of negative times, as opposed to the 90% positive times.

You do realize that Debito has done literally zero activism other than his Otaru case (which if I recall correctly required him to pay lawyer fees for both sides, leaving him with no real settlement - aka a draw), which was a long time ago right? Since then all he has done is twisted facts and mistranslated articles to support his mindset that no matter what Japan is wrong and racist (while being extremely racist himself). He thrives on creating scenes and creating problems. Any comments that correct or otherwise do not confirm what Debito wants to broadcast are deleted from his site.

His posts following the Tohoku disaster along with a series of stories which turned out to be near complete fabrications should have made this clear to any supporters he still had left.

He used to be a decent source of information on how to do certain things, but it is all out of date and designed to cause conflict now.

He is not our champion and has no support from any other prominent activists/foreigners. His support base is bitter eikaiwa lifers who do not speak Japanese. Also, he doesn't even live in Japan anymore. He moved to Canada.

See japanprobe & tepido for posts pointing out the mistakes in every major issue he brings up.

I heard they only call white/black people 外人／外国人 so I never got that when I walked around.

Racism in Japan feels different, excluding anti-China/anti-Korea.
In the US you feel threatened. In Japan it's kinda silly, but sometimes it's also more of the mental bullying "hold-you-down" type instead of fearing for your life. On top of that, you might get racism in the US from different groups but since Japan is pretty racially homogenous it often feels more us against them.

Service is kinda weird. It seems really polite but sometimes it seems fake. I was trying to get a refund out of hostel because their system booked me for a date that I didn't want, and I was frustrated with their English so I said "I can write a little Japanese." I was very frustrated that they were writing in 敬語 because for one it's not that simple to understand for a guy who only said he knows basic Japanese, and two, it sounded like they were being really polite but they were being jerks by not listening to me and brushing it off in that fashion.
There was also the time I wanted a refill of water so I brought it to the counter at Mos Burger and the guy wouldn't hand it back to me. He had to walk it all the way back to my table and put it down.
The bus service was much more polite than the bus drivers in Vancouver though.

Friendliness is kinda mixed. I thought that yeah, I would never have a random conversation, but one day I was hanging out in a western-style park with my cousin and he was taking photos. This old guy started talking to me for some reason. (He also thought I was Korean.)

Also all politeness goes out the door when it comes to crowded trains. You can say the same thing about California and parking lots.

If I even hinted I could speak Japanese, they would just speak full blown Japanese to me. Sometimes they would dumb it down, and I could tell. Even the people I met from online who were studying English seemed to be too embarrassed to use it.

I miss the fascination of not knowing anything though. Before it was like "Cool! What are all these crazy characters! What kind of store is that? Why are they talking so funny?" It's been replaced by "Hey, there's a grocery store, there's a yakiniku place, it's like wandering any big city."

All of this is pretty much based on 3 tourist visits though.

ronnihonjin Wrote:...the real crux of the matter is that in our Western societies racism is now a crime. If one is discriminated against institutionally that is ILLEGAL. This is not the case in Japan, where we are not even afforded basic HUMAN RIGHTS.

Examples and source plz

Jarvik7 Wrote:Many white families in the west would have similar reactions if a daughter brought home a black man. Current gf's family is great (though they are jealous that she spends so much time with me).

You'd probably be surprised the people you know that would take up this stance too. When I was visitng relatives and telling them about my time in Japan; my cousin commented that I'll probably bring home a Japanese fiance. My grandmother reacted with a "He better not~!" Which I found both funny (because I like Asians more than white girls) and shocking cause I never expected that kind of reaction from her. I'm not 100% sure how my parents would react, though I think they expect I'll marry a Japanese girl. My family line has been strictly white for as far back as most can remember; planning to change that though.

EDIT:

Quote:the real crux of the matter is that in our Western societies racism is now a crime. If one is discriminated against institutionally that is ILLEGAL. This is not the case in Japan, where we are not even afforded basic HUMAN RIGHTS.

I didn't see this till kitakitsune pointed it out. I basically glossed over it.

Japan has anti-discrimination laws. It took a while for them to get put in place and only came after a quite of bit of pressure I believe. They didn't exist till up to like 30 years ago? The problem is that there are a number of loop holes and the cases that do exist are kind of grey area and may not fall exactly under the laws. Fact is, that many laws go unenforced in Japan. Police will turn a blind eye to many problems and things that are illegal either because they don't want to deal with the paperwork or because they are getting money under the table for it.

ronnihonjin Wrote:"But, you are gaijin, are you not? Calling someone gaijin is nowhere near equivilant to chink or gook. Gaijin is not a racist word any more than foreigner is a racist word." was said by I think thistime. I`m glad you backtracked on this a little bit, because I honestly can`t agree with that statement in any form. The word gaijin is just as bad as "chink", "gook", "chinaman" or any number of racial epithets because it strips us of our identity. Referring to me as "gaijin-san" is in my mind one of the rudest ways to address me in the Japanese language. It is dehumanising and places me firmly on the outside of team Japan, looking forlornly through the window. Not only am I placed on the outside of team Japan, I am also not even allowed to be associated with my home country and end up in some sort of bastardised concoction of Amerika and every other country in the world. This is strangely enough often NOT the case with other Asian nationals, who tend to get a chuugokujin or kankokujin label etc.

Well, I'm not sure I backtracked. I still do not think the word gaijin is racist. Nor do I think that being referred to as gaijin is neccesarily racist either. AND I DEFINITELY don't think it's equivilant to gook or chink. Like I said, I've never been referred to as 外人 like, "Bob, what do you think?" "外人、どう思いますか？” So, I'm really not sure how I would react to that but, yeah, if you have, then you are interacting with different kinds of Japanese people than I am haha. That even made me chuckle as I was typing it because it just seems so odd. I can't imagine a Japanese person referring to me as 外人 in the same way that we would use 'you' in Enlgish.

So does referring to someone as Asian, black, white in English strip someone of their identity? I don't think it does. They are descriptives. I personally, don't have any problem with being described as gaijin anymore than I would have a problem being described as having blue eyes, being tall, being white. They are all just words that can set me apart from the majority (which is kind of the goal when describing someone).

thistime Wrote:So does referring to someone as Asian, black, white in English strip someone of their identity? I don't think it does. They are descriptives. I personally, don't have any problem with being described as gaijin anymore than I would have a problem being described as having blue eyes, being tall, being white. They are all just words that can set me apart from the majority (which is kind of the goal when describing someone).

The difference here is that 外人 is an all-encompassing word (although it seems restricted to whites and blacks. asians not so much). It's the "you're not part of us" mentality. If you were described as an アメリカ人　or a ドイツ人 or whatever country, then your comparison with tall, blue eyes, and white would make sense. Instead, 外人 is similar to saying saying "anyone who's not short, with black hair and dark eyes."

I haven't had it used to me in a way that I found offensive, and in my experience it was never used in a discriminatory way. I actually went in with the mindset that it was a bad, offensive word that nobody should use, but when I got there and saw how it was used in my day-to-day life, I wasn't offended anymore. Maybe that'll change now that I'll be living there more long-term, but up until now, I haven't had any real problems with it, personally.

.

So basically white and black Japan-loving peeps are sad because they can never "be on the Japanese team", so to speak?

@merlin:
Accelerating into a cyclist still crossing the road is beyond what even Aichi drivers are capable of I agree. Though that is largely because drivers are slow to accelerate on a green because they are expecting three more cars to blow through the the red light

While plenty of cyclists and pedestrians also break traffic rules, they have right of way <no matter what>, and they aren't capable of killing/maiming people due to an impact (unless they knock over a frail old lady who is already knocking on death's door).

Aichi does have a reputation for bad driving even among Japanese people. The car is king here because of Toyota.

kitakitsune Wrote:So basically white and black Japan-loving peeps are sad because they can never "be on the Japanese team", so to speak?

I don't know where you got that from. I think it's great to acknowledge that you'll always be considered outsider. How someone feels about it is their own business.

Yea I have a tendency of just posting random thoughts that only have loose connections with the topic at hand.

My dad just became a US citizen this year. He got pretty lucky getting hooked up how he did. And now I'm following I'm his footsteps and leaving my birth country as well.

For the average Joe trying to get into the US, it definitely ain't easy. Around my parts, as long as you can speak the language, you're treated pretty much like anyone else though. We've got Mexican immigrants who's language skills arent as great, and they get treated way worse then white foreigners in Japan. Just an anecdote.

Edit: (me, Swiss citizen living in the states for 21 years)
Edit edit: (also US citizen)
Edit edit edit: and I'm soon to be 23.

Hyperborea Wrote:I think a lot of people posting about "how horrible it is to be a foreigner in Japan" have no idea what it's like being a foreigner anywhere else. Just about everything that's posted is not much different from being a foreigner in the US except less severe. They sound to me mostly like people who've left their place of "privilege", more often than not Americans, and are unused to not being top dog in the society.

These are mostly complaints from those in Japan on a temporary work visa. Do you have any ideas of the hoops that you are made to jump through in the US on a temporary work visa? About how disadvantaged you are? About how much more difficult everything is? And this for a caucasian foreigner who can sometimes blend in and look not foreign but anytime anything official is needed you have to stand out.

It gets worse if you stand out because of name, colour, accent and particularly worse if you have a combination of those.

As for the term "gaijin" 外人 being racist try being an alien in the US.

Quoted for truth (lived in the states for 4 years and would never want to go back, especially post-9/11)

I agree with Jarvik's comments on the drivers; I think it's a product of practicing on courses instead of on real roads (and just a general dickishness). I've been nearly hit by cars much more here than ever in the US despite cycling around 1000 miles a year in the US.

Shouldn't that be considered a given? My country is very much homogenized like Japan (although forced to have much more interaction with the outside world) and I can see same kind of discrimination happening to foreigners here (it's been said that we are the most discriminating out of any European country out there, which may not be far from the truth).

I don't see how it's relevant though unless someone has the idea that Japan is bad and everywhere else is good (lol). Although I'm not sure whether that can apply to everything, for example law enforcement sounds like it's not quite on the level it should be even on global (first world) standards for foreigners.

What exactly is everyone thinking happens to foreigners re: law enforcement?

Being asked for your registration card by police is all I've ever heard out of the debito camp, but it doesn't seem to be too common in reality.

I was paranoid about it when I first came to Japan, but I've never been asked. I certainly don't trust the police here, but I don't trust them in Canada or the US either.

Foreigners are in a weaker position if they get arrested, but that is because most cannot speak Japanese well enough to understand what's going on/being said and to tell their side of the story. Victims of crime being ignored/suspicious deaths being ruled accidents happens to Japanese people too.

My image of police here is just supreme incompetence, not malice towards foreigners.

Ah, driving. I don't think it's just 3 cars on red in Japan. Back when I was driving (sold the car when I moved to Tachikawa as I don't need it here), there were some occasions where I had thought I was pushing it going through a yellow light that wouldn't still be yellow when I got through the intersection, yet the next 5 cars behind me would go through as well.

I've witnessed a couple incidents of people on bikes being hit by cars (luckily by cars pulling out of alleys and not checking the sidewalks, but still stopping before going out on the road, so they were moving slowly) and nearly been hit myself twice while biking. It's not just the drivers, though, I've seen lots of people on bikes doing stupid crap, too, like swerving out into traffic without checking to see if a car was coming.

Recently there was a push to get the bicycles off the sidewalks and onto the roads, one of the cited reasons for which is bicycle-pedestrian collisions. First thing I thought was that the increase of pedestrian-bike accidents will go down at the cost of an increase in automobile-bicycle collisions. Looking into it more, however, it appears that they are actually designating bike routes along less congested routes and actually creating bike lanes on several of those routes, so perhaps it won't be such an increase. In my immediate area, however, the sidewalks actually have designated bike lanes, so it is legal to ride on those sidewalks at least.

And I love how they park anywhere and think it's ok if they've turned on the hazard lights. Anywhere. Middle of the fast lane, practically in the intersection. On the road 2 feet away from the entrance to an empty parking lot.

And apparently they are unable to back up using mirrors, and must open the door and lean out while driving backwards. Granted this is more of a pet peeve than a "bad thing about Japan" but I'm on a driving-related rant, so I'm throwing it in.

For the whole 外人/外国人thing...　Yes, technically 外人used to be an insult a long time ago, and 外国人 is the more polite term, but nowadays many people treat gaijin as a short form or more casual form of gaikokujin. If someone is using it to be insulting, you'll likely know the difference. It's sort of a running joke that whenever I do something even slightly odd, one of my co-workers will say 変な外人, at which point I will get mock-insulted and say おい！違う。変な外国人!

Jarvik7 Wrote:My image of police here is just supreme incompetence, not malice towards foreigners.

Well, yeah, I mean it's not so much about an issue only concerning foreigners but the country as a whole. And in the grand scheme of things foreigners are worse off in that environment. As long as everything is as it should there should be no problems though.

I remember reading an article a while ago where some I think Canadian guy was turned back on the airport and was forced to buy a plane ticket and fly back to Canada right there and then because of issues with his visa. While the guy came off as all kinds of shady and the story in itself was dramatized heavily there still was a lot of unacceptable things he had to go through in the whole process no matter what his background were.

Quote:Second, it raises the issue of perspective on the part of the "complainer". Things are always tougher as a foreigner for a lot of reasons everywhere.

I agree with your first point but I'm not sure that this is relevant at all. Does that invalidate what they have to say?