I don't think we are thinking of prostitution differently. If you are thinking of taking a girl out for dinner or buying her a present as paying for sex, then yes, you are treating her exactly like a prostitute. If she is only having sex with you because you bought her those things, then she is treating herself like a prostitute. I think most girls would be pretty horrified if you told them that's how you perceived buying them dinner, and reject that.

Yes, it is possible to consent to have sex for money, but those cases are stunningly rare, and imo, it doesn't apply to young girls, because they aren't capable of making a thought out decision about things like that.

The point is, to avoid problems, you need to be having sex with someone on the same terms as they are. Don't use people as an object for your own convenience. If you want casual sex, go and have casual sex with someone else who just wants casual sex. Just take care not to hurt the other person.
But casual sex involving money is never really on equal terms, since it involves one person becoming an object for the use of the other.

I'm not from the US, and actually, i don't care which thing the media perceives as worse than the other. If you're a fully grown adult, you should know better than to sell drugs to or have sex with minors. (lets stick to class A drugs here, since it's arguable that maruana doesn't actually have so many bad effects).

vix86 Wrote:Where as I'm arguing about the term simply on the base definition of prostitution which is simple "exchanging sexual services for money." I guess now is a good time as any to point out that based on this definition of prostitution. Most dating "social scripts" for these days are basically long drawn out prostitution. You take a girl out for dinner, buy her some things, and then later you head home/hotel and have sex. Sure there wasn't DIRECT money exchanged but its pretty close to the concept of prostitution and its still consensual. Enjo Kosai is basically working on this concept.

The reason we're arguing lies here.

For me personally, dating is about friendship, companionship, emotional connection and mutual attraction. You take someone out, get to know them, enjoy their time and company, and if the attraction is strong *maybe* go back to yours at some point. Yes there is a social convention that the man pays for things, but I don't see what that has to do with the attraction/connection part (also it's not even true anymore; in the UK at least it's normal to "go dutch" and pay 50/50 for the first 1-3 dates).

If you can't see how this is different to meet old stranger -> exchange money/gifts -> sex, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Also it seems you're very emotionally invested in this topic, and frankly I'm too lazy to reply anymore..

I got lured into this thread because I wondered if there were people who felt that they would have been better off either not spending so much time learning Japanese and/or going to Japan. I have many friends who feel this way and no friends who regret the time they spent learning Spanish. I personally do not regret either my time in Japan or the time I have spent learning the language, but I have occasionally thought I would have been better off concentrating on something else. The recent focus on prostitution does highlight some of the issues in Japan, and how different it can be for men and women. Thoughts?

aphasiac Wrote:If you can't see how this is different to meet old stranger -> exchange money/gifts -> sex, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Also it seems you're very emotionally invested in this topic, and frankly I'm too lazy to reply anymore..

Oh I see the difference, but I'm simply taking issue over 1) the extent to which people think the law should step into this matter, why, and over what reasons. And 2) whether or not 16 yr olds are retarded which ties in with number 1. I just like to argue/debate. But ya, agree to disagree. I think we're viewing the issue through different lenses here.

EDIT: AND NOW BACK TO WHY JAPAN SUCKS!

No, in this case, lets not agree to disagree. Grow a sense of responsibility and respect for other human beings, please.

Nobody is arguing that 16 year olds are retarded, just that they can't make decisions giving full weight to the consequences or issues involved, which is why you, as an adult have the responsibility to. And we're not even talking about just 16 year olds, there are girls as young as 11 or 12 doing this.

Everywhere has pedophilia and rape.

I tend not to hang around with people like that so it doesn't affect me in the slightest.

I don't know if anything can salvage this thread from derailment at this point, but BREAKING NEWS!!! DEBITO WROTE SOME NICE THINGS ABOUT JAPAN!!!!!!!!1!!!11!!!!!!!

IceCream Wrote:Nobody is arguing that 16 year olds are retarded,

Arguing no, stating yes.

Quote:just that they can't make decisions giving full weight to the consequences or issues involved,

Which is EXACTLY like calling them mentally handicapped until they reach some unknown age and can suddenly comprehend the entirety of something. Even in one of the links that you posted earlier, the scientist in the article, herself states that teens are mentally handicapped.

Quote:which is why you, as an adult have the responsibility to. And we're not even talking about just 16 year olds, there are girls as young as 11 or 12 doing this.

Well I am talking about 16 year olds. I have not been sitting here arguing that 10, 11, 12 year olds are adults or can even come close to functioning as adults on any level. I do however believe that a vast majority of 16 year olds in this day and age however can.

and your belief is supported by what exactly? Because it's not supported by science.

Or even anecdotal evidence? Were your decisions at 16 really so mature? Because i know mine weren't, i made plenty of fairly horrible decisions, all the while thinking that i knew what was best for myself when really i didn't have a clue. I definately didn't have any kind of emotional maturity at that age either, i feel like it's actually quite recently that i started to become more emotionally mature.

i seem to remember you originally saying it was fine to pay 14 year olds for sex.

[Zgarbas]

Common 16-year-olds really ARE pretty stupid. They don't understand consequences for a good part of their actions, and their judgement is blinded by teen rebellion and the need for recognition. They lack the experience to judge things properly. Even the brightest ones are held back by their lack of experience, which tends to show once you spend more than 10 minutes talking to them.

Also, as someone who has dated older guys (not twice my age, but in their early 20s) while a teen, I realized that the sole reason those guys were looking for teenagers was their lack of maturity. I am already unable to connect with 16-year-olds despite not being much older than one, because there's a great deal of things that should happen past that age to make you grow. It was not me being mature, it was them being unable to grow up. The guys who still hunt teenagers past a certain age are what we normal people would refer to, as, well, "slow".

And no, despite how the Internet praises grown men who love ponies&pokemon, being "slow" is not a synonym to "being youthful and fun", it is just being slow.

IceCream Wrote:and your belief is supported by what exactly? Because it's not supported by science.

Nor has anything in counter been supported by anything resembling a cause-effect relationship. All I've seen are correlation data points. I haven't seen anything trying to explain why, for instance, willfully going and having sex with a stranger is going to lead to people being all screwed up in the head.

Quote:Or even anecdotal evidence? Were your decisions at 16 really so mature? Because i know mine weren't, i made plenty of fairly horrible decisions, all the while thinking that i knew what was best for myself when really i didn't have a clue. I definately didn't have any kind of emotional maturity at that age either, i feel like it's actually quite recently that i started to become more emotionally mature.

My decisions concerning sex were fairly mature as were plenty of other people I grew up with, but I also saw plenty of stupid decisions as well. This isn't something 16 year olds have a monopoly on though.

But what exactly does "emotional maturity" even mean though. That you don't break down into hysterics over you latest bf/gf leaving you?

Quote:i seem to remember you originally saying it was fine to pay 14 year olds for sex.

Yes I did start off the discussion with a flippant remark about 14 year olds selling sex. I think I may have argued at another point in time for 13 as well. But I think a good enough argument could be made that sex at 13-14 still has a pretty good chance of physically harming girls. Boys would probably be ok though.

Zgarbas Wrote:They lack the experience to judge things properly. Even the brightest ones are held back by their lack of experience, which tends to show once you spend more than 10 minutes talking to them.

And we're taking this issue surrounding lack of experience, and the inability for some to grasp consequences. Wrapping it around the topic of sex (which is only a step removed from tossing money on the situation and calling it prostitution) and making laws. The only real definite consequences to sex are: pregnancies and STDs; both of which 16yr olds are usually aware of (Thanks sex ed!). Rape, murder, violence, coercion; are all just as likely to occur under any other (legal) circumstance. And so I say it again, why then are we making laws and taxing the system over this particular issue (be it sex with a minor or prostitution)? Because its sex.

vix86 Wrote:But what exactly does "emotional maturity" even mean though. That you don't break down into hysterics over you latest bf/gf leaving you?

Not necessarily, more like not being swayed emotionally so easily in general, and not be so impressionable. Also, the ability to have the confidence to extract yourself from situations that you're not really comfortable with.

If you haven't yet seen enough evidence as to why teenagers can't make balanced decisions about things you should go and do some more research by yourself.

It's also been pointed out quite a few times that choosing to have casual sex with someone on equal terms is quite different from paying someone for sex, and why the age difference is relevent here too... i.e. as the adult in the situation, you have the responsibility.

btw, how old are you? Because if you are also a teenager, then i'll also bow out of this discussion.

vonPeterhof Wrote:I don't know if anything can salvage this thread from derailment at this point, but BREAKING NEWS!!! DEBITO WROTE SOME NICE THINGS ABOUT JAPAN!!!!!!!!1!!!11!!!!!!!

Nice try!

[Zgarbas]

Pregnancies and std's are a pretty common consequence and are potentially life-ruining, though. Not something you'd want as a 16-year-old, and any amounts of sex ed can't cover up the ease with which teens can be manipulated. I've had many school mates who had pregnancy scares, and when asked why they didn't use protection (we had sex ed and free condoms in school, no questions asked, and birth control can be found for free in planning clinics which are quite numerous) they almost always said something among the lines of "he's experienced and knows when to stop" or "I hear you couldn't get pregnant if you're on your period". A 16-year-old is ridiculously quick to believe anything you throw at him/her. Promise them that this is a sign that she'll become and adult and they'll do almost anything.

There are emotional consequences to sex. There are social consequences, though it depends on individual environments. There are values which change over time and which would pretty much lead to definite regret and issues once the teen has grown enough to realize the wrong. There are kids who think that in order to become an adult one has to show sexual prowess and end up getting gangbanged in public bathrooms, which *shock* can mark a person.

And with prostitution, I doubt a normal 16-year-old would willingly prostitute herself. More often than not it is an issue of parenting(since many prostitutes are forced or traficked into it) and/or poverty, both which should be filed with the government under social issues.

BTW, physically harming someone during sex is common when the other party does not want it. Even if they agree to it, as with prostitution, their bodies can't conform to it. If somehow you can't see that, picture partaking in forced anal sex, as the bottom, facing someone who only intends to get off and is not exactly gentle about it(cause prostitutes aren't known for getting gentle clients). No lube, if you're at the lower-end of the scale.

OK, the thread has derailed.

Here's a slightly more personal view of how Japan has "let me down" in this sense. I have a pretty low opinion of older men using the fact that they have money and (perhaps) status to have sex with young girls. I just have no respect for them, wherever it happens, and it happens a lot in Japan.

And before someone says "what's wrong with the age difference?" let me add that I have a rule-of-thumb for how much younger a partner should be at the very most, whether you're straight or gay. Half your age + seven.

Going to answer these out of order cause I want to bring this 360 and come back to what started this derail in the first place. This is going to be my last post on this particular topic, I feel guilty enough about derailing this thread for as long as we did, from the Japan bashing.

Zgarbas Wrote:And with prostitution, I doubt a normal 16-year-old would willingly prostitute herself. More often than not it is an issue of parenting(since many prostitutes are forced or traficked into it) and/or poverty, both which should be filed with the government under social issues.

Except this is exactly whats been happening in Japan for well part of almost 2 decades now. First it was enjo kosai speed services but these days its 出会い系 sites. These days guys and girls alike, go on to sites and post small messages/profiles about wanting to hang out during *whenever*. Guy/Girl contacts the other person, they maybe exchange some mail and then they meet up. Girl usually sets a price for time, like an hour and half is 2万, if guy finds it acceptable they go to hotel and do the deed. Girl gets paid, thats that. When this caught on in the news it was shown that high school girls were doing it the most (but even Middle schoolers were involved too) and they were mainly doing it so they could buy more brand goods. It was a big issue during the bubble. In recent years it has become less and less of an issue compared to what it use to be. I'd read somewhere I think that it was mostly a change in perception by teenagers. ie:Other ways to get money now, consumer goods not so big a deal now, and its ださい. On the rare occasion you'll hear about someone getting arrested for it still though. I particularly liked the one story I heard about a 75 year old having sex with a girl that said she was 19. After she left he realized she left her wallet in his car and took it to the police station to turn in. He never bothered to look inside and told the cops he had just had sex with the girl (for 2万）, turns out she was 16.

IceCream Wrote:Not necessarily, more like not being swayed emotionally so easily in general, and not be so impressionable. Also, the ability to have the confidence to extract yourself from situations that you're not really comfortable with.

Ah. On this I will defiantly give you the point. I could reason my way through decision well enough and make mature decisions about many of my actions at 16. But I would highly doubt my "emotional self" if you are defining it in terms like that.
I just don't think warrants a wide array of special blanket protections over sex. Sex/Sexual release is about as normal of a physiological process as taking a shit.

Quote:It's also been pointed out quite a few times that choosing to have casual sex with someone on equal terms is quite different from paying someone for sex, and why the age difference is relevent here too... i.e. as the adult in the situation, you have the responsibility.

And as I've tried to point out already its like saying, "Casual sex is fine but as soon as you put on purple gloves during the act, it suddenly gains whole new meaning and is no longer the same thing."

Quote:btw, how old are you? Because if you are also a teenager, then i'll also bow out of this discussion.

25

Vix86: There is, like with so many other human characteristics, a fairly normal distribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution) when it comes to intelligence/reasoning at all ages. There are undoubtedly people who are 16 and are better at planning/critical thinking etc. than you or I ever will be. However, the average 16yo skill level will be considerably lower than it is for 18yos - especially since there is a considerable amount of individuals still maturing physically at this age and it hasn't been that long since they hit puberty. So the great majority, let's say >70%, of all 16yos are below say the 35th percentile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentile) level of skill among 18yos. Do you understand what I'm getting at? Even though there will always be individual variation, society has to mostly work with the averages to form the overall best decisions. So, sure, there are some 16yos that are more "mentally advanced" or whatever you want to call it than 25yos and more well equipped mentally to decide whether they want to become prostitutes or not. However, for every one of these 16yos there will be at least ten 16yos that are less able to make that decision than a 25yo at the 10th percentile among the 25yos.

I hope I'm not confusing you, I'm sorry if I did. The point is, for every 16yo that would be able to make a "conscious", aware decision re: prostitution there would be tens of 16yos that wouldn't be, while for 25yos that ratio would be very different, say three 25yos able to make the decision for every 25yo that isn't. This is of course just random numbers, but they should illustrate my point quite well. Making laws "individually suited" so that certain 16yos that are somehow (measuring or even defining these kinds of things is in itself complicated) deemed "mature" enough to be allowed to act as an adult in at least some ways is pretty much impossible, unfortunately.

Another thing is that regardless of the differences in mental capacity, there is also a great difference between adults and non-adults in resources, capabilities and rights:

Adults are allowed to drive cars - which enables them to lure non-adults, that think driving cars is 'cool' etc., to come with them in their car and then drive them to some faroff place and for example commit murder. I want to stress that this isn't some unavoidable outcome, but the risk is certainly greater.

Adults have much more money which is usually the case in buyer-prostitute relations, but non-adults have much less experience with money, they haven't had a fair amount of money ever usually, and they tend to have less mature views regarding money, ie they are more easily manipulated by money.

Adults have higher tolerance as well as easier access to alcohol/drugs and as a group much more experience with them, meaning they might easily trick non-adults into overdrinking/overdosing after offering alcohol/drugs.

Adults have more experience with sex and have been able to figure out in prior relations how they want to view sex and what they want out of sex (should it only be with people they love? do they like casual sex or dislike it? etc. - btw that's something I reacted to in Jarvik's post where he said that love and sex aren't related - they aren't necessarily connected, but a lot of people CHOOSE that they want them to be related), non-adults that don't have as much sex experience are often unsure of themselves, and non-adults tend to try to rely on adults when they are unsure meaning that they can easily be manipulated by adults in sexual situations. Adults, especially a bit older adults are also much more capable of deciding whether prostitution is compatible with what they want their sex life to be, since they've lived through a period when they could explore their own sexuality.

There is more I could say, but what I've written should be enough to show what I mean. With all these "advantages" that adults are allowed to have come a number of responsibilities that our societies impose upon adults, one of them being that you shouldn't pay for sex with non-adults, partly because society places non-adults at a relative disadvantage, even if you ignore the purely "biological" disadvantages. It's a very reasonable responsibility in my opinion and I hope you'll agree with me after reading this, vix86.

vix86 Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:lately it was discovered that an AKB48 member's mother admitted to performing indecent acts on a 15-year-old kid.

Heres a pretty recent one, 元講師、担任の女児５人に計３７回わいせつ…京都.
Though this particular case was with Elementary kids and was rape, so its kind of outside the scope of what the original people were insinuating (I think). But its not like Japan is going: "You're under arrest!....Oh wait you were fiddling with some 10yr old girls? Thats it? Oh dam, my bad; sorry about that! Go on your way."

Right now I'm thinking about Grad School and possibly studying in Japan, so I looked up Waseda University. I found this case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Free

3 counts of rape -- 14 years?
In the US, it's 25 to life for each one.

On top of that, they introduced punishment for gang rapes after the case. Minimum 4 years... that's it.

I am more interested in the punishment of this guy in Kyoto than what he was caught up with.

vix86 Wrote:As far as the punishment and the way it was viewed by the media though? All things aside (celebrity involvement), women get far less flack from the media when they are they are involved in child sexual abuse versus a man. I actually can't find any stats to support a claim that they get less harsh punishments compared to men in court; though. But its my initial gut reaction on the matter. Women are far less demonized in the media over sex with minors though. So its quite easy for me to believe that the courts probably went "Well, boys love sex, so the woman was kind of doing him a favor, it wasn't traumatic to him at all. We can't ignore the fact that she extorted him though so we'll slap her with a small fine."

The boys might have been extorting her, not the other way around. "Do favors for our boss or we'll beat up your son every day at school."

I'm also not sure they actually go to court in Japan? I have no idea what their legal proceedings are like. The article suggested that the mother turned herself in and paid the fine after consulting the boy's parents and lawyer.

I'm also not sure if your view is westernized, because that seems to be the prevailing view here. Every time some female teacher gets caught, a bunch of comments shoot up saying "man i wish i was molested by her when i was growing up. this kid is an idiot!"

lol, how can you feel bad about derailing a thread like this??

Quote:

IceCream Wrote:Not necessarily, more like not being swayed emotionally so easily in general, and not be so impressionable. Also, the ability to have the confidence to extract yourself from situations that you're not really comfortable with.

Ah. On this I will defiantly give you the point. I could reason my way through decision well enough and make mature decisions about many of my actions at 16. But I would highly doubt my "emotional self" if you are defining it in terms like that.
I just don't think warrants a wide array of special blanket protections over sex. Sex/Sexual release is about as normal of a physiological process as taking a shit.

Right, it is. It's normal for teenagers to experiment with each other. I don't think anyone is trying to argue that sex isn't a normal thing to do, or should be banned or anything ridiculous like that.

Besides which, it's not necessarily a problem with a teenager's ability to reason. Often their reasoning skill is perfectly good, but they still can't make their actions conform to their logic, because their brains just aren't developed enough yet. That was one of the points in the NG article. They understand why they shouldn't drink and drive, or have sex without a condom when you have a conversation with them, but they can't apply that logic properly when they are in the situation.

Quote:

Quote:It's also been pointed out quite a few times that choosing to have casual sex with someone on equal terms is quite different from paying someone for sex, and why the age difference is relevent here too... i.e. as the adult in the situation, you have the responsibility.

And as I've tried to point out already its like saying, "Casual sex is fine but as soon as you put on purple gloves during the act, it suddenly gains whole new meaning and is no longer the same thing."

No, it's not like arguing that at all.

In these situations, it is directly some older man exploiting the impressionableness of these teen girls to do things that they probably wouldn't dream of if they were older. A Gucci handbag or whatever really isn't that important. Just like the chinese kid who sold their kidney for an Ipad, it's hard to see them not regretting that later. And what normal 16 year old isn't going to end up with some feeling of disgust for sleeping with a 40 year old, let alone a 75 year old?? It's not even normal to be attracted to someone that age, but if they were truly in love, you could forgive it.

Just like Zgarbas said, their values will change, but the way they've treated their own body can't be taken back. There are emotional consequences of that. The physical consequences she mentioned are also very real.

It might not even be ideal for teenagers to have casual sex with each other, but at least if they do they are doing it on even terms, not turning one party into an object for their own purposes, and they will generally be attracted to each other in some way first. And probably neither of them knows any better, so you can't really blame them, whereas an adult has the responsibility to know the risks the child is taking, both physically and mentally, and refrain.

Jarvik7 Wrote:The majority of his complaints are equally applicable to any other country once a little perspective is applied. Thus it's not Japan itself that causes his misery.

He didn't complain about what he didn't like, his complain was about wrong marketing!

I've told a few friends how Japan isn't as ideal as it SEEMS (this is the major problem, why is Japan marketed as a great, even ideal, country while it's not?) and you can't imagine how shocked they were, and it's not their fault. This cannot be said about any other country.

Countering every criticism with "like every other country" is an invalid argument, because Japan is supposedly a rich first world country, and is always shown as a different one.

After realizing that Japan isn't "the best country" but "just another country", there's still at least two things that are worse in Japan than other countries, which are:

-Sexual issues. (Sexual view of children, sexual harassment and the significance of sexual content in daily life).
-Out-of-the-box thinking is discouraged, especially for an industrial country, seriously WTH?

So, Japan can be worse than other countries, but it indeed has it's good points that suite some people which make it a great country to live in for THOSE people, not in general, just "like any other country" lol.

Irixmark Wrote:And before someone says "what's wrong with the age difference?" let me add that I have a rule-of-thumb for how much younger a partner should be at the very most, whether you're straight or gay. Half your age + seven.

LOL Anyone else calculated the appropriate age using his rule-of-thumb? xD

undead_saif Wrote:After realizing that Japan isn't "the best country" but "just another country", there's still at least two things that are worse in Japan than other countries, which are:

-Sexual issues. (Sexual view of children, sexual harassment and the significance of sexual content in daily life).
-Out-of-the-box thinking is discouraged, especially for an industrial country, seriously WTH?

Why does everyone seem to just accept these statements? I haven't seen any serious studies mentioned in this whole thread, just stereotypes being thrown around. It's hard to know where to start refuting refuting these two areas are worse than say the USA, UK, France, Germany, etc.

Is concluding from the prevalence of chikan and junior idols/lolicon manga that Japan is "worse" in the area of sexual criminality than "other countries" while ignoring more serious things like rape statistics and whatnot really sensible? "Significance of sexual content in daily life" - what does that even mean?

Out of the box thinking is discouraged? Are we just ignoring the creative output of the country in terms of arts and technology and that every company says on their hiring rounds that they're looking for creative candidates? If you mean that, for example, "Japanese schools are inflexible in their focus on rote memorisation and testing" then say that.

These meaningless blanket statements really annoy me, just as much as if it were my own country being clumsily criticised. I think people would be better off to listen to Japanese citizens themselves for the most part instead of drawing conclusions and impressions from the rants of relative outsiders.

IceCream Wrote:lol, how can you feel bad about derailing a thread like this??

Point taken, but I'm actually really grateful for people sharing their experiences/opinions here. It's been a good reminder that for everyone who has an awesome experience living in Japan, there are probably just as many people who have had a terrible one (for whatever reason).

i dunno, i think it's important that people go and experience it for themselves, and try not to have many preconceptions. It's too easy to let other people's negativity affect your own view, and you start to view things through a negative lens where you might not just by thinking about it on your own. The only advice i'd give is try to keep away from westerners with a chip on their shoulder, and stick with people who do enjoy life in Japan when you do go, and hopefully you'll end up with a more balanced opinion.

No country is perfect, and Japan has it's own share of social problems, but they don't always necessarily exactly fit the western stereotypes of them either.