Laura: I think probably just about everyone makes a few minor changes to the Heisig system to make it fit themselves better. For example, I don't write any stories down, thinking it a waste of time. What I and others meant by "if you can't bother with Heisig you shouldn't bother with kanji at all" is that Heisig demands significantly less time than other study methods (which rely on the same kind of study skill), so if you can't make the time for Heisig, traditional methods are even further from your grasp.

-edit-
Yay 100 posts

Right. Basically all that RTK asks for is determination, and I doubt you can get very far in Japanese study without determination. I don't think this is a harmful message. Rather, it's a useful hint that could save people a lot of wasted time, imho.

Remembering 2000 kanji is hard. That's why we need Heisig. With Heisig it still isn't easy, but it is MUCH easier than without it.

I would claim that a memory expert could go through Heisig in a week. Easily. 48 hours might be enough. Have you ever see one of these guys give a demonstration where they memorize the name of everyone in the audience? In a couple of hours they can memorize hundreds of names. Someone memorized 1/3 of the New York phone book in a couple of months as a publicity stunt. These guys aren't savants, but they have spent a lot of time practicing memory techniques.

As has been mentioned in other threads, reading a book on trained memory before starting on Heisig will make things go more smoothly. These techniques would also be incredibly useful for students in their other studies.

Jarvik,
I should not have used the word "minor" when referring to alterations to Heisig. Learners who understand their own learning style should alter the method to whatever extent necessary to suit their own particular style. There was an interesting comment about memory experts. My father used to do a variant of the stunt mentioned. He would memorize the names and faces of everyone in a crowded auditorium. Then at the break, he would greet people by name as they milled around the lobby. It's a trick and unfortunately has only minor relevance to Kanji learning. The reason belongs on a psychology or neuropsychology and learning forum.

Heisig's method requires more than mere diligence, it requires good visual imaging and processing ability. It does not tap auditory processing. It does not use sequencing to a great extent. It uses less association than De Roo. I know it "seems" using visual processing and imaging would would preferred; It is the easier method for the majority of people, but not for a significant minority (maybe 25%). Kanji ABC and De Roo use a variety of processes.

I am using a method which is probably 25% heisig and 75% De Roo. This is not a criticism of Heisig. I am using auditory rather than visual imaging. Again, this is what works for me because I have poor visual processing and unusually good auditory processing ability. Kanji ABC would have been a good method for me if I were starting from scratch, but at this point, I would experience interference from my use of De Roo.
And I might have gotten bored with Kanji ABC because is is so rote. Those of us who are busy, with intellectually demanding jobs, and have partners and maybe children running around, are experiencing another kind of cognitive interference.

Best

Hi, Laura,

thanks for the post-- you raised good points, from an important perspective. Since I essentially stated "RTK or quit," I wanted to say a couple things.

My perspective is as the guy five steps behind in my Japanese classes. When I lived in Japan, I got frustrated just being around people with better Japanese than me. I don't know why I continued, honestly. So I feel kinship with the students you mention, and it does give me pause to think I wrote something that can be read as the same kind of discouragement I always loathed.

I don't mean to say that RTK is the only way to do this. Some people just "get" kanji (as shown in that debate on Tae Kim's site a couple months ago). But I don't know a better _systematic_ way to learn them. There are gimmicks (etymologies, pict-o-graphix), but the answer I have seen most literate non-natives give is, "Just do it."

But only a few people have the skills and determination to do it that way. Formal Japanese language education has, I think, failed everyone else outright. For instance, at Yamasa (one of the best language schools in Japan), they stop teaching kanji after 300, and those 300 are by rote. RTK at least systematizes the task, and allows it to be customized for different learning styles. I don't think anyone in the thread has upheld a dogmatic approach to it-- given how the system's designed, I don't even know what that would look like.

I would add that the question of getting frustrated enough with a language to quit often has to do with a classroom context. A test is coming up, and you have to cram; you keep failing quizzes even though you keep up with the homework; you finally understand what you did last semester, even though it won't help you with this semester. My teachers were encouraging, but usually didn't have any advice other than "work harder," or "ganbare," because they had a syllabus to finish, which was more important than my individual progress.

RTK puts the individual in charge of the progress; but it's still a big task. So I think then, rather than get beaten down and change the goal from fluency to the 1000, or 500, or 250 most frequent kanji, you can get a good look at just how much work it will be. The average times other people mention, of course, can provide a benchmark, but the size of the task won't change. At which point I think a good assessment of whether you're really interested (as opposed to capable) in doing all that work is a valid question to confront.

I really really believe that everybody is capable of learning kanji. The only question is finding the way that works best for that individual. RTK has a lot of techniques going for it that would be helpful for a lot of people, but not necessarily all of us. Some will go fast, others slower, others maybe another approach will work better for them.

That's fine.

It's still my opinion that the RTK order of learning the Kanji is a big help. Also the decomposition into primitives (more of them than the 214 traditional radicals) is a good thing. The idea of visual stories, linking the primitives together will be a sound technique for a lot of people.

As for criticisms, the chosen keywords are a compromise, and some were better than others. The order is a compromise, and some kanji seem out of sequence (because they're not part of the 2042, maybe). I suppose you have to set SOME boundaries.

It's not perfect, and it doesn't make this significant task easy. And it doesn't work for everybody. So, some of us try it, and it works pretty good for us. For me, it changed "impossible" into "barely possible". I'm glad for that.

Magnadoodle Wrote:In my view, Heisig is only useful for people who A) have a good level of japanese already or B) plan to follow an intensive study course or self-study in a fairly intensive manner after having completed the book.

C)Use an SRS

First, as others have noted, thanks for your opening line. Too many people debate too many things without any applied knowledge. This will be a constructive thread simply because of this fact.

I agree mostly with your second point (who should use Heisig) and disagree mostly with your first point (effort).

On point 2:

When I preach the good news of Heisig I never fail to note that I believe Heisig is not for casual learners (defined as those who only want functional "phrasebook" Japanese to survive in Japan), but I also believe that it is an incredible tool for anyone else, and an essential for the serious student hoping to master kanji as quickly as possible.

I disagree with a lot your qualifications of who Heisig is for though:

Quote:it will take you a long time to complete the book in the first place

I don't think Heisig requires a huge amount of effort considering the return (more on that later).

Quote:You won't learn any japanese during that time

This is the biggest flawed argument against Heisig. Kanji is Japanese (arguably the most difficult part of Japanese). Thus, doing Heisig is learning Japanese. "But it's not applicable," people argue. It is. Within the first day I was applying my newfound knowledge to decode previously impenetrable Japanese. And now that I've finished Heisig and am focusing on grammar and vocabulary, Heisig is really shining. I've described in detail elsewhere my building analogy (that Heisig is the framework for learning Japanese, best to be erected first) and I see every day how the grammar and vocabulary I learn slides into place in the already established framework of kanji. It's incredible and I see it in direct comparison to non-Heisig students. The others in my study group struggle every lesson with selections and questions because necessary vocabulary, which they don't know, impede their understanding. It's hard to practice a grammar rule if you don't know what it's referring to. With Heisig, I may not "know" the vocabulary either yet, but I can immediately infer meanings which frees me to focus on the topic at hand.

Quote:have a good level of japanese already

Absolutely not. Heisig can be done by anyone. That's the point.

Quote:plan to follow an intensive study course or self-study in a fairly intensive manner after having completed the book

Not intensive, but at least serious to reap the most benefit. However, anyone who completes Heisig, whether they go on for serious study or not, will find it greatly beneficial to any other study they do.

As for point 1:

Quote:That leads the hopeful beginner to think that he might, not being as good, be able to do it in two months! Which we all know is not going to happen.

Actually, I finished Heisig in 2 months. And I know of many others on this site who have done the same, or even in 1 month as Heisig did. I'd say I averaged 5 hours a day on Heisig (not including any weekends since I rarely completed any kanji on the weekends. So actually, taking that into account, I finished Heisig in even less time than 2 months if you only include days studied...). "That's more time than I have," many may argue. But here's the key: Heisig is so much fun that became my daily entertainment. The 2-3hours I day I usually spent surfing the net, and most others spend watching TV, was spent on Heisig instead. It was productive AND entertaining! Plus, I made effective use of all my otherwise wasted free time such as on the train, walking places, and even on the pot.

Quote:I think that it's fairly hard to evaluate the time required to complete RTK.

I agree. Everyone is different and has different responsibilities and priorities. But just as importantly, everyone also has different levels of motivation and skills at time management.

Quote:It will drain you mentally and you will need to push yourself a lot if you want to keep on track.

Quite the opposite for me. I felt invigorated studying Heisig. Yes, after especially ambitious days, my brain felt like mush. But how different is that from the athelete training in a sport he or she loves? The workout was draining, but after some rest, they're gungho about the next day.

Hello Billyclyde,

Interesting post. Don't get me started on Japanese language education. Some College Japanese classes seem designed to create an atmosphere of competition, anxiety and stress, the very things which inhibit language learning. I took an intensive Japanese course recently at a top tier university which shall remain nameless. In my work we talk about the "hidden" rules of the classroom. The "hidden" rules of this classroom seemed to be: 1) The rules regarding homework, testing, grading etc are more important than what the students learn; 2) The schedule shall not be modified even when the teachers have made a mistake; 3) Each student shall be treated "fairly" that is exactly, with no exceptions, like every other student. After years of this torture, many of the students in this program are unable to converse about everyday topics in Japanese. They can, however, list all the possible ways to express causation.

Back to Heisig. I am not going to debate the value of the Heisig faith. Many people on this forum seem to be saying to the rest of us, "You can do it. Just keep at it." That is a good message. Memory techniques will work for some people. But, there are folks out there who will benefit from using techniques specifically aimed at the way that they process information. I started Heisig last spring and gave up after about 200. I decided to try again in late August. The tipping point for me was using the record function of my PDA to record my voice saying the radicals and playing it back to myself. And I am learning readings as I go along. Some people will be helped by using one color for the right hand radical and one for the left. Most people will remember more if they say the key words out loud when they study. I have worked with young adults who cannot count to 10 and I have worked with medical students. Each one of us is different.

Dingomick Wrote:I don't think Heisig requires a huge amount of effort considering the return (more on that later).

I agree with that, but it doesn't mean it isn't a big investment in time and effort.

Quote:

Quote:You won't learn any japanese during that time

This is the biggest flawed argument against Heisig. Kanji is Japanese (arguably the most difficult part of Japanese). Thus, doing Heisig is learning Japanese.

I don't want to get into a semantic argument, but I don't consider doing Heisig to be learning Japanese per se. It doesn't diminish the value of the method in any way, just that Heisig is more of a base, or a structure as you call it to allow you to then learn Japanese. Now, I bet we could get into a pretty long discussion about this point, since Heisig does enable you to gain some measure understanding of Japanese text by guessing from keywords, so in a way, yes you are learning Japanese. My original point was just that a casual learner who would use the Heisig method would get very little benefit from the method until they had fully completed it and then learned some measure of Japanese grammar and vocabulary. Thus my statement that you will not be learning any Japanese during the time that you are doing the book. Only when you have completed it that your abilities will improve. Anyhow, it really depends on how you define learning Japanese and from a general perspective, you could say that you are learning Japanese, as that you are participating in the general process of learning Japanese. That is, you are not learning math, or doing laundry, but learning Japanese. But that was not my point. Let's not turn this into a semantic debate.

Now, for the time argument. I know that some people, especially on this forum, have finished the book in two months. But I think that this is a small and unrepresentative sample. The fact that you consider learning kanji satisfying as your sole source of entertainment further confirms my view that you do not fit an average profile. . (btw that also applies to me to a certain extent)

I also read your depiction of RTK as a structure on which you build other knowledge and I agree on that.

The points which I wanted to make were basically that

1) RTK is harder to a lot of people than it has been for you and some others on this forum 2) It's not to be recommended for everybody 3) Heisig doesn't really tell you that, so I wanted to post this as a kind of warning to potential students so that they make sure that Heisig is really for them and that they know what they are getting into.

[ファブリス]

@MAgnadoodle : What does the time to complete RtK have to do with one's Japanese level ?

So I completed RtK in 6 months, not counting 3 months of breaks in between. Does that make me representative of an "average" RtK user ? My grammar when I started RtK consisted of "watashi wa xyz desu.". I learnt about 300 words ahead with Linkwords, as well as hiragana and Katakana. Does that make me representative of someone tackling RtK with no previous knowledge in Japanese, I think so.

I also believe RtK can work for everyone. However studying on your own and pushing through during 6 months (as an average) at a minimal rate of 10 kanji a day; more if you skip days, that's the difficult part.

Not everyone is prepared for that (having some experience with long term goals), and/or not too prone to procrastination. I wasn't prepared yet, but I learned some good lessons. I was tired of starting and giving up projects so I kept at it. Looking back it seems easy but in truth, yes, it was pretty hard to keep going.

Yes, the method is easier for some than others. I'm amazed at so many members here completing it in 3 months or less. Kudos to them. I couldn't do it in such a short time. Some people have better memory, some people will be more skilled at creating the mental images and such. Based on my experience I'm convinced the mental skills required by the method are skills, you get better at practicing them. That's why I believe the book can work for everyone.

Magnadoodle Wrote:Now, for the time argument. I know that some people, especially on this forum, have finished the book in two months. But I think that this is a small and unrepresentative sample. The fact that you consider learning kanji satisfying as your sole source of entertainment further confirms my view that you do not fit an average profile. . (btw that also applies to me to a certain extent)

True. True.
People think I'm crazy when I ramble about kanji and Japanese like I do...
I give that 2-3 month estimate for dedicated people who are compatible with this method of learning. Of course, it won't go so fast for everyone, and it won't be the best method for everyone.

re: how long it takes...

I think what limits people is time issue than memory skills. I was studying 50 new kanji a day and to do that took about 2 - 3 hours to come up with solid stories and write them into here. That may sound like a long time but at that rate it works out as 2.30 minutes per story and that's not including the breaks. I could have spent less but i felt i would shoot myself in the foot by constantly failing them in the future (i've notice that i'm right on that as my failed box is always full of the stories I rushed - thankfully there was only 50).

On top of studying new kanji you have to review the things as well. At first its no problem as your just reviewing 50 a day, after a week its up to about 70 and near the end you can be on 150 -200. Add that time to study time and i think you need around 5 hours a day to really go at it and having a day off is out of the question because if you do you'll then have twice as much to review the following day.

I was working at the time but was lucky to be able to slack off and study whilst no one was looking which meant equalled 1 hour plus the hour break. In all 2 hours of reveiwing were over. I still had 3 hours to go and I just looked for ways to cram that into my day. I did 30 mins on my commute to work, 30 mins on the way back and then a final two hours at home.

Near the end i was dreaming kanji stories ... it was really bad but i knew if I stopped I'd end up losing motivation so just ploughed through. I think with a weeks break (no studying but still reivewed to sort out my boxes n stuff) it took about 7-8 weeks.

After a few months the review number has gone down from 200 down to a more respectful 50. And im so happy i did it. Im happily reading manga and even when i dont know a kanjis reading i can some times guess its meaning. Everything at least looks recognizable.

good luck.

FAB:::: By the way when cards go into the last box does the interval time get successively longer the more times you get them right or does it stick to 4 weeks?

oh and what fab said about sharpening your memory skills is also true - i was dire at first at creating stories. Id always write out boring mnemonics and wonder why i wasnt remembering them. Then i started inventing stories involving the sopranos, pinnochio and such and my recall rate soared!

ファブリス Wrote:@MAgnadoodle : What does the time to complete RtK have to do with one's Japanese level ?

Nothing really. You can do Heisig as a beginner or as an advanced learner. It will take you the same time. The advanced learner will be able to make use of it faster though.

ファブリス Wrote:Does that make me representative of an "average" RtK user ?

Yes, I think you would be an "average" user, though that's of course a pretty hard term to define. My guess is that 6 months is a more "normal" time than 2 or 3 months which would be a "fast" time. And yeah kudos to those who completed it faster. And kudos to you too who kept at it and reached the end. I also took around 6 months if you add up all those periods over 2 years and I think it was worth it.

ファブリス Wrote:I also believe RtK can work for everyone.

I agree.

Magnadoodle Wrote:

ファブリス Wrote:@MAgnadoodle : What does the time to complete RtK have to do with one's Japanese level ?

Nothing really. You can do Heisig as a beginner or as an advanced learner. It will take you the same time. The advanced learner will be able to make use of it faster though.

Unless of course the person has already learned several kanji. Not only will they already have some down, but I believe having seen many kanji and being able to write many already will make the whole road ahead easier.

Before I decided to do Heisig I was taking the kanji required by my Japanese classes and putting them into anki and quizzing by a keyword from my Kanji Learner's Dictionary. I also tried to do this beyond the class, taking any vocab I knew and making a point to memorize the kanji even if it wasn't required.

Decent exposure to kanji + practice memorizing them beforehand = easier time with RtK.

@Laura

I also had a similar experience at a Japanese school. It wasn't as bad as what you describe, but when it came to rules and tests, they were totally inflexible. And they were focused on grammatical perfection. I remember having an argument about an answer that native Japanese thought sounded perfectly good, but was apparently wrong according to the grammar books.

I think part of this attitude is due to the fact that Japanese teachers don't really think you can actually be good at Japanese. This is especially true concerning kanji. As Charley said, they don't really have a method to teach you kanji and they don't expect you to ever master them.

Thanks for the detailed reply Magnadoodle.

Quote:I don't want to get into a semantic argument, but I don't consider doing Heisig to be learning Japanese per se.

I don't think it's a semantic argument. Japanese, and all other glyph based language systems, are completely different than alphabet based ones. Learning even just the meanings of kanji is learning Japanese. Anyone who argues otherwise is doesn't understand the difference in language acquisition.

I think every learner, even "casual" learners, almost immediately begin reaping the benefits of Heisig in application, that is, they almost immediately begin understanding a lot more of the Japanese around them.I'm sure my experience is a common example.

Within the first few days (within the first 300 kanji, which happens to also be his free trial), kanji compounds I had never known or recognized before were blazing out all around me. I still clearly remember the "AHA!" moments of a few of these early compounds, 消臭 and 可燃物. They went literally like this: "Extinguish. Stinking. Whoa! Deodorant!! I can read that!" "Can. (didn't know the kanji yet, but knew its parts)Fire/Kind of thing. Thing. Holy Cow! Burnable garbage!! I can read that!" These were words before that I may have associated by context (the first obviously on a deodorizer, and the second on a trashcan), but after Heisig I could understand them as words themselves and out of physical context even if I didn't know how to say them yet. I was reading Japanese!

This is an essential component of "learning Japanese", especially for those living in Japan. Passive understanding (reading and listening) are the most crucial skills for the beginning language student. I believe Heisig provides the most effective tool to propel the beginner, or any level learner, to heights of reading comprehension impossible otherwise except through many years of study. Heisig cracks the code. I may not be able to say a lot of the words I can now read, but it has made my life infinitely easier. For example, I no longer stare at the back of packaging with my dictionary out trying to figure out the contents. I can infer the meanings of the words with my understanding of the kanji within the compounds. And I can scan all text articles, advertisements, etc. and immediately infer the topic being discussed. Before Heisig, I was surrounded by an impenetrable world of squiggles.

Quote:The fact that you consider learning kanji satisfying as your sole source of entertainment further confirms my view that you do not fit an average profile. tongue

I don't consider learning kanji itself so entertaining. The Heisig method is what made it so enjoyable. I got to create entertaining stories all day and/or read entertaining stories other people had made here on RvTK. THAT is what was so entertaining.

Quote:1) RTK is harder to a lot of people than it has been for you and some others on this forum 2) It's not to be recommended for everybody 3) Heisig doesn't really tell you that, so I wanted to post this as a kind of warning to potential students so that they make sure that Heisig is really for them and that they know what they are getting into.

1. I agree.
2. I agree, though I believe it can work for anyone with adjustment or enhancement for individual learning styles. Also, mnemonic learning is a skill that requires practice. I believe many simply give up before they have made any effort to hone their mostly new found skill.
3. I disagree. As others have pointed out, his intro states it requires concentrated time and focus, especially if you want to finish quickly. And he repeatedly expounds upon the fact that his method is unfamiliar to most and requires practice.

I just think the idea of casual learners getting a rude surprise when trying to get through RTK is levelling a bit too much of the responsibility on RTK. Serious language aquisition is a large investment of time and effort. If you're not willing to spend it, you aren't going to get anywhere no matter what method you choose, and RTK is simply a method.