Gingerninja Wrote:Put any kid on a tangent and they'll just talk. The girl I worked with a few years ago's son used to come to the shop every friday afternoon after school, he'd be about 5-6 and as soon as I told him I liked the pokemon games too, he followed me everywhere. I maybe understood about 20% of what he said to me, but just by nodding and saying yeah. and throwing an opinion about something so it looks like engaging them, kids will go on, and on, and on.. they certainly do plenty of speaking practice given the opportunity.

The difference is kids haven't learned social habits yet, so they'll just talk to anyone and everything about anything. As adults we don't have that luxury, and we don't like to be embarrassed about our mistakes, so we have a tendency to be passive. I can't talk worth a damn, but my listening comprehension (conversationally) is ok. So most of my Japanese friends will just speak to me in Japanese without dumbing anything down for me, my responses are a little more restricted by my speaking ability, but I can fumble a conversation about most stuff (even if it does involve more arm flapping than I wish it did.)

They are not the same skill, not by any stretch of the imagination. Or at least, for me they are not.

Just how good is your listening, though? This is the question I really meant to ask earlier in the thread: if someone were to put off output until they had near perfect comprehension(native level, say), what would the results be? Most people who I've heard went a long time without output have noted that their listening wasn't great, either. I certainly don't feel that putting off output for that long is healthy in any way, but, to be honest, have no idea whether it is or not as I'm not aware of anyone reaching that level of comprehension without making a conscious effort to practice speaking.

On your first sentence, it is certainly not the case than *any* kid will talk given the chance. Most, but not all. There are children of all ages who are quiet to the point of only using gestures(although things could be different when only their parents are around). Of course, these children may also be behind in both their speaking and comprehension, but it is far too difficult to tell since they say so little.

Also, I'm not aware of any studies showing that a child who speaks very little/not at all will progress more slowly in their native tongue than the typical child who is constantly speaking and being corrected(someone correct me if I'm wrong). It certainly seems that way, of course, but it may well be nothing more than correlation. All of this discussion about what children go through when learning their native language could well be moot if there is no empirical evidence showing that the various things pointed to(constant output and corrections, a silent period with constant input etc.) directly effect their progression.

[I need to stop posting right before I go to bed; I can't even tell if my own post is garbled nonsense or not. Apologies if it reads terribly]

kudokupo Wrote:How can I make things comprehensible?

Generally in the following 3 ways:

1. by already understanding enough that the unknown bits can be inferred from context.

2. by using materials that are level appropriate and meaning is explained via translation or context.

3. by using materials that allow for easy access to word definitions and or complete translations.

Inny Jan Wrote:When you want to get better something you need to start doing that something...

So, I fail to see how you can improve output if do more input, that simply doesn't make sense.

yes and no. How well you can speak is constrained by how much you know. So getting more input to improve your stock of knowledge (words and grammar, standard ways things are expressed and pronounced etc) will create room for your output ability to grow. If you try to learn via output, then you're always pushing up against that limit, and speaking seems hard. If you focus on improving your comprehension, you'll find yourself better equipped to speak when the opportunity arises. It does of course require some practice but remember that speaking is something that we (adults) can all do. We can hear sounds, and articulate our mouths to mimic them (like whistling your favorite tune). The concept of arranging our thoughts into sentences isn't new, you just need to get used to a new bank of vocabulary/idioms and grammatical conventions.

nadiatims Wrote:

Inny Jan Wrote:When you want to get better something you need to start doing that something...

So, I fail to see how you can improve output if do more input, that simply doesn't make sense.

yes and no. How well you can speak is constrained by how much you know. So getting more input to improve your stock of knowledge (words and grammar, standard ways things are expressed and pronounced etc) will create room for your output ability to grow. If you try to learn via output, then you're always pushing up against that limit, and speaking seems hard. If you focus on improving your comprehension, you'll find yourself better equipped to speak when the opportunity arises. It does of course require some practice but remember that speaking is something that we (adults) can all do. We can hear sounds, and articulate our mouths to mimic them (like whistling your favorite tune). The concept of arranging our thoughts into sentences isn't new, you just need to get used to a new bank of vocabulary/idioms and grammatical conventions.

Summary:

1) Get yourself a lot of input so you learn natural expressions etc and how the language works.
2) Don't make stuff up when outputting, try to stick to what you know is valid because you've heard other people say similar stuff (doesn't have to be *exactly* the same).
3) Practice output. The ability to speak won't come magically.