Betelgeuzah Wrote:It's kinda sad that they seem to know that their language could be vastly improved but they lack the willpower and resources to give enough of a damn.

Really? The only reason the Japanese people haven't fallen over themselves in their rush to adopt our "superior" writing system is because they lack willpower? Seriously? That's where you want to go with this? The inherent racism in all this is just... *headdesk*. Who are we (Americans and Europeans) to tell the Japanese people how they should write their own language "for their own good." The whole argument smacks of a 19th century "white man's burden" style of thinking.

Has it never occurred to you that maybe the Japanese like their language and their writing systems they way they are? That Japan has a very rich (and very ancient) literary tradition that (just as we see in other languages) celebrates the beauty of the written language? Try telling the winners of the Akutagawa prize that they should adopt your system. See how well that goes.

もういい！
Faakinで食べに行こう！

spideymike Wrote:Really? The only reason the Japanese people haven't fallen over themselves in their rush to adopt our "superior" writing system is because they lack willpower? Seriously?

Lots of mad in here..

Few reasons were given, the most important of them being the fact that the change would be a logistical nightmare, at least when done in one big sweep.

Either way they can do anything they want with their language, but the fact is it could be vastly better. What they (don't) end up doing is not my concern.

But at least white knights are there to support them!

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Either way they can do anything they want with their language, but the fact is it could be vastly better.

Language just doesn't work that way. Native speakers of a language spend years and years learning the language naturally as well as through schooling so the complexity of the language, whatever it is, doesn't actually hinder native speakers at all. Changing the language only makes sense from the perspective of someone who is learning Japanese as a second language.

A change provides no benefit to a native speaker of the language. All that it would accomplish really is destroying the cultural roots of the language, which wouldn't be good for Japanse literature. It would also create a sort of wall between the past and the present. In two generations only highly educated people would be able to read Japanese as it used to be written, which would be a big hinderance to academia in Japan. People would have to have a lot of extra formal studies in order to read any old documents.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Lots of mad in here..

Heh. It is the internets after all :>

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Either way they can do anything they want with their language, but the fact is it could be vastly better. What they (don't) end up doing is not my concern.

Exactly. It is none of our concern (you and me both). But please don't make it out to be because they are lazy and don't care about their language. (Which is what what I take from "lacking willpower and resources to give enough of a damn.") I would suggest that they don't do it because they don't want to and because they do care about their language.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:But at least white knights are there to support them!

Nah. Their doing just fine without me.

Tzadeck Wrote:A change provides no benefit to a native speaker of the language. All that it would accomplish really is destroying the cultural roots of the language, which wouldn't be good for Japanse literature. It would also create a sort of wall between the past and the present. In two generations only highly educated people would be able to read Japanese as it used to be written, which would be a big hinderance to academia in Japan. People would have to have a lot of extra formal studies in order to read any old documents.

Excellently put.

Hey guys, has anyone else noticed the state of the coloseum?



I mean, look at it, it's a f***ing mess, walls all broken down. It's kinda sad the Italians know it could be vastly improved by knocking it down and building it again with steel and glass, but they don't. Same goes for the pyramids:



Completely broken! Let's fix them already.

Then you've got African tribesmen:


Aren't they embarrassed walking around all day like that? Is any one else sad that these people could be vastly improved if they would just wear some clothing? I mean, come on already! It's the 21st century!

The reason why analogues always fail is that they never manage to reflect the original circumstances of the source subject accurately. The farther the subject is the worse the analogue.

I am baffled as to why some people in this thread go to such lengths to be as much of a bitch as possible. Usually this sort of behaviour is saved for situations where the person in question lacks any sort of argument of his own, but still wants to show his disagreement through ridiculing the opponent. I am sure the people here would not resort to such tactics though, which makes the situation even more perplexing.

Quote:I would suggest that they don't do it because they don't want to and because they do care about their language.

If they cared about their language they wouldn't be raping it so much with foreign words. Most countries with a unique language (like mine) would be concerned about a trend like this, as more and more English influence takes over the language and replaces it, but Japanese don't seem to care. Otherwise they would do something about it.

Instead they just go and add words such as this: デジタルメディアストリーミングプレーヤー.

That said if they cared they aren't really showing it. They probably rather think it's English so it's COOL!

Tzadeck Wrote:A change provides no benefit to a native speaker of the language. All that it would accomplish really is destroying the cultural roots of the language, which wouldn't be good for Japanse literature. It would also create a sort of wall between the past and the present. In two generations only highly educated people would be able to read Japanese as it used to be written, which would be a big hinderance to academia in Japan. People would have to have a lot of extra formal studies in order to read any old documents.

This is already true of Japan today. Very few people can read things written before about the mid-19th century unless they are translated, and the early Meiji writings that are trying to do this bungo/vernacular mix are quite difficult as well. Even stuff written before the 1950's requires some updates in the orthography to make native speakers comfortable reading it.

I'm no longer certain whether we're talking about script reform or replacing Japanese words with English, so I can't say much more than that. I pretty much made all my points in favor of script reform in this thread:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7586

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Usually this sort of behaviour is saved for situations where the person in question lacks any sort of argument of his own,

You don't have any sort of argument of your own. Just a bunch of ethnocentric nonsense.

Quote:If they cared about their language they wouldn't be raping it so much with foreign words. Most countries with a unique language (like mine) would be concerned about a trend like this, as more and more English influence takes over the language and replaces it, but Japanese don't seem to care. Otherwise they would do something about it.

They're letting more loanwords into their language than they should, so they should get rid of their writing system? Are you high?

yudantaiteki Wrote:I'm no longer certain whether we're talking about script reform or replacing Japanese words with English, so I can't say much more than that. I pretty much made all my points in favor of script reform in this thread:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7586

You know, in hindsight looking at how defensive people get over innocent criticism of the language of the glorious nippon as if this was a personal issue for them I should have never said anything about replacing words. Since even suggesting a slight script reform is enough to make the defenders of all that is Asian bring out the pitchforks and torches.

It's a discussion forum, not a voting ground for me alone to determine the future of the Japanese language. But my 2 cents seems to mean a lot to some people, which is pretty cool.

Quote:They're letting more loanwords into their language than they should

Which means they don't care as much as some people seem to think, which was my counter-argument against someone saying they do care. Where you got that rest of the stuff I don't know. There are no hidden meanings behind what I said.

Quote:You don't have any sort of argument of your own. Just a bunch of ethnocentric nonsense.

Every time I have provided a counter-argument for your points you have either danced around them with no apparent goal in sight, ignored them completely merely to come out to say something else a while later, or changed the subject. Your actions speak louder than your words. Anyone can say that "the opponent is wrong" at any time, words are cheap.

What is it about the uses of katakana that romaji/hiragana can't replace? This must be the fourth time I ask this question (which is a reasonable one, I might add). If there is none, the fact is that katakana and romaji have no reason to co-exist but merely for the sake of making Japanese study more than they need to.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:What is it about the uses of katakana that romaji/hiragana can't replace? If there is none, the fact is that katakana and romaji have no reason to co-exist but merely for the sake of making Japanese study more than they need to.

First of all, this is a fallacious argument. You're claiming that unless it's impossible to replace katakana with something else, then there is no reason to keep it. There are lots of reasons to keep it. Zigmonty has cited a good many of those reasons and you have responded to nearly none of them.

I provided one example of something katakana can do that romaji can't. It's true that they could write entirely in hiragana, and some people got along just fine without katakana for centuries. In the end, there is no absolute reason why they couldn't change it (which seems to be what you are demanding that I provide). It's a linguistic convention and you've yet to provide a reason why it should be changed other than "They'd have 46 fewer characters to learn," and "They'd get more practice with 'romaji'."

intheendtheresnoabsolutereasonwhyanylinguisticconventionhastobethewayitisimeanitwouldbeen
tirelypossibleforustowritewithoutspacescapitallettersorpunctuationbuthavingthosefeaturesatleas
tinmyopinionmakesthelanguagebetterandeasiertouseevenifitinvolvesabitofextratimeinordertolearnh
owtousethemcorrectlywouldntyouagree

@Betel
unless you can provide me an overwhelming reason why english cannot get rid of capital letters, i demand that you cease using capital letters henceforth. it makes me sad that english could be vastly improved and easier to learn if people would just stop using capital letters, but you make no effort to do so.

JimmySeal Wrote:First of all, this is a fallacious argument. You're claiming that unless it's impossible to replace katakana with something else, then there is no reason to keep it. There are lots of reasons to keep it. Zigmonty has cited a good many of those reasons and you have responded to nearly none of them.

If he has, I have missed them. I don't think that's the case though.

My claim is not as simple as you make it sound. The negatives outweigh the benefits (of which there are none, because they can be replaced).

Well, at least I finally got a response.

Quote:I provided one example of something katakana can do that romaji can't. It's true that they could write entirely in hiragana, and some people got along just fine without katakana for centuries. In the end, there is no absolute reason why they couldn't change it (which seems to be what you are demanding that I provide). It's a linguistic convention and you've yet to provide a reason why it should be changed other than "They'd have 46 fewer characters to learn."

You are mistaken in that I have not provided any other reason, as I certainly have. Learning languages with romaji becomes ultimately easier if your own language makes significant use of the letters as well. It is certainly a bonus on top of simplifying a needlessly complex language and should not be overlooked.

Though why you are demanding me to provide some greater reason is unknown to me. It's better, if only slightly, but it is better because there's less characters to learn. Enough said.

Quote:intheendtheresnoabsolutereasonwhyanylinguisticconventionhastobethewayitisimeanitwouldbeen
tirelypossibleforustowritewithoutspacescapitallettersorpunctuationbuthavingthosefeaturesatleas
tinmyopinionmakesthelanguagebetterandeasiertouseevenifitinvolvesabitofextratimeinordertolearnh
owtousethemcorrectlywouldntyouagree

ANALOGUES. sigh. There is a reason why we put spaces between our words, it's not just a convention for the sake of having one. And since said reason exists, that is the justification for not changing it (unless something better comes to replace it, in which case lolspaces). There is nothing to replace spaces as of 2012. Same can't be said of katakana. And you can't provide the same kind of reason as can be provided for the existence of spaces (no replacement that is already in use).

Quote:@Betel
unless you can provide me an overwhelming reason why english cannot get rid of capital letters, i demand that you cease using capital letters henceforth. it makes me sad that english could be vastly improved and easier to learn if people would just stop using capital letters, but you make no effort to do so.

Many languages have made concentrated efforts to reduce capitalization, and I agree with the trend.

However, the last sentence is just mind-boggling. I'm not going to start using romaji in place of katakana and I have never implied that I would, how can you even think up stuff like this? Once again I'm not trying to change the language, I am expressing my opinion on a discussion forum.

Let's replace our whole English writing system with katakana because it'll make it easier for Japanese to learn and pronounce English.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:It's better, if only slightly, but it is better because there's less characters to learn. Enough said.

I'm so very confused. Sometimes you say it would be slightly better, and sometimes you say "vast improvement." Which is it?

Yeeeeah... I think the majority rule in this case.

Witty but inaccurate one-liners seem to be the way to go around here.

Quote:I'm so very confused. Sometimes you say it would be slightly better, and sometimes you say "vast improvement." Which is it?

Could you pick any more trivial of a thing to pick on? Who gives a damn. Think whatever you want, as long as the point is clear: it's better. The end.

I just don't get the "it's too complex" argument in favour of replacing specifically the katakana with romaji at all.
I learned to read and write them in a *day*. I'm still noticeably slower than I am with Latin script (and even somewhat slower than with hiragana), but if I, who has had close to no contact with the Japanese language before that, can take care of them in a day, I doubt they'll slow down any native learners considerably.

From the perspective of complexity there's an argument to be made in favour of an alphabetic or syllabic system over the kana/kanji-combo; even though I think that the drawbacks (for native speakers, that is) vastly outweigh the benefits.

*All* languages have their idiosyncratic complexities - just look at English with its frankly absurd ways of spelling and pronouncing words. For the foreign learner, some of them might as well be written in kanji for all the help the spelling gives when it comes to pronunciation (through/though/thought/trough, word/sword, http://grammar.about.com/od/alighterside...rbpoem.htm).

That doesn't mean that the best way of dealing with the "problem" is to impose an external logic to remove these idiosyncrasies - they are what makes languages sparkle with character, and the native learners wrap their heads around them eventually anyway.
The main benefit would be for foreign learners of the language, to whom I simply say this:

Deal with it.

(And I'm not even STARTING to get into the argument about how embracing loanwords means that you don't care about your own language; which is so utterly ridiculous a notion it hurts my brain just to put it into words.)

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Could you pick any more trivial of a thing to pick on? Who gives a damn. Think whatever you want, as long as the point is clear: it's better. The end.

Slightly vs. vastly is trivial? Ok. And could you point out how my last statement was inaccurate? I'm genuinely confused.

JimmySeal Wrote:Slightly vs. vastly is trivial? Ok. And could you point out how my last statement was inaccurate? I'm genuinely confused.

I provided my reasoning (which is the non-trivial part) and you can choose to interpret it how you wish regardless of my choice of words to interpret it myself.

Now, let us take out the dictionary and start arguing semantics further. While accurate statements will no doubt be provided, one could ask what this has to do with anything.

Quote:I learned to read and write them in a *day*.

Did you learn the alphabet in a day? We spent 2 years practicing them in school, and many more to make our handwriting better. The perspective I am looking at here is that of a 5-7 year old vs. someone possibly in his 20's.

I am not sure what the argument here is?

Is it?

1. Too much Gairaigo, loss of culture, uniqueness, etc?

This btw, is classic weaboo,otaku,japanophile argument. While I'm sure there is no shortage of Japanese people that make this argument, I'm always surprised when foreigners make it.



2. Replace kana, specifically Katakana with romaji.

(These two arguments are not the same, in fact I'm surprised they are being made in the same thread, at times it seems by the same person, or persons )

Given the passionate hate that most of the Japanese learning community(those on the internet) has for romaji, especially this place, I'm surprised someone had the courage to mention this out loud. Before anyone tells me I'm being dramatic, I give you JSL. JSL aside from the less common romaji it uses, is an excellent textbook, but people pick it up, see that it has romaji, and start spitting at the mouth about the evils of romaji. I am debating the merits of JSL or anything, but it's an example of how the J-Learning community reacts to romaji.

Also I have never understood, this desire to get rid of exclusively the English words, forget Kango, or other Gairaigo like Pan, Doitsu, etc. If we are talking about the purity of the language, why not throw out all the Kango with it, kanji too. I'm just really curious why English words are so deserving of this special contempt.

leonl Wrote:Given the passionate hate that most of the Japanese learning community(those on the internet) have for romaji, especially this place, I'm surprised someone had the courage to mention this out loud.

I don't deserve that kind of recognition. I opened my mouth merely due to foolish ignorance of assuming that romaji isn't the devil.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Did you learn the alphabet in a day? We spent 2 years practicing them in school, and many more to make our handwriting better. The perspective I am looking at here is that of a 5-7 year old vs. someone possibly in his 20's.

Now you're the one providing an invalid analogy. How long did it take you to learn the lower case letters after you learned the capitals? Japanese people learning katakana already know how to use hiragana.

JimmySeal Wrote:Now you're the one providing an invalid analogy. How long did it take you to learn the lower case letters after you learned the capitals? Japanese people learning katakana already know how to use hiragana.

Eh, I think we learned them at the same time. Either way it took a long time, with roughly half the amount of characters to learn.

The analogue wasn't really relevant, the main point is that the present you learning katakana =/= a 5 year old doing the same. Learning the alphabet is the closest experience we have to that.

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other so I'm not contributing much to this thread, but it seems like many people have never heard of writing reform before. It has happened before and it does work (simplified Chinese, Hangul, Meiji & post-ww2 Japanese etc etc).

Also, my previous posts were about writing reform to move Japan more towards internationalization, not replacing Japanese with English to help learners learn Japanese.
Modern Japanese is so horribly marred by katakana English already I don't think there is any merit to the argument of protecting it's beauty.