So, lately I've been getting stressed out on trying to learn japanese. I want to live there someday. I feel really lost on where to start. I was going to work on Kanji first (I have RtK1 but kept getting confused on the primitives and Keywords in the story. I kept getting confused on which one was the keyword for the overall kanji so I stopped.) Well, luckily I found AJATT and was getting some confidence to continue going but I still was losing my way since I'm still stuck at where I am. I was going to get SilverSpoon but it costs TOO much. I feel like giving up since I'm used to school and getting instructions on what to do. I don't want to take classes though because they're boring. *Sigh* I really wish I knew what to do. Maybe I'm too stupid to learn a language and can't find my way.. I really need help right now.

Well, I really hope I posted this in the right section. Sorry if I didn't.

Ah, white people problems...

Expect learning Japanese to take about seven years if you want to be good enough to read novels for adults. If you can't get through RTK, how exactly are you going to keep up studying Japanese for that long?

Try a more traditional approach for a little while, and then come back to RTK once you feel like kanji are a real barrier. You could do a textbook, or Pimsleur, or both. Also watch Japanese media (with Engish subs is okay) and maybe listen to podcasts.

Take your time.
I started buying books and getting materials in December and from 24.12.2011 I began RTK1.

Around 12 january I stopped after 10 lessons (250 kanji or smth) and began (and just finished hiragana). So I didn't rush but I wrote them alot also. I have a jp notebook full already. I gave up on everything else this time. Like doing some Michel Thomas Japanese Foundation (btw remember this audio program, less annoying than others) or something else... no, just kanji/kana + immersion.

I had a problem at the beginning with a lesson cause I just thought some of the voted stories will work for me. Shining 昭 has 141 votes but didn't work for me "The sun was shining so bright that it seduced Icarus and he flew too close." So I had to make funnier stories, "I got people naked, I got people in the mud" as Benny likes to say. The stories should be relevant to you. Read also nest0r's post.

I also didn't rely only on RTK. Sometimes I read Kanji Pict O Graphix too.
If you don't like RTK you might try textfugu.com approach. First lessons might be free.

Don't stress.

Regarding AJATT:

I had Silverspoon one month. Khatz recommends lazy kanji so it might be easier for you. I liked SS in a way and I miss it, but its way too expensive.
But I loved some other products, especially Red DAO. Good for motivation.

Tzadeck Wrote:Ah, American problems...

There, fixed it for you.

[Zgarbas]

brace yourself, the silverspoon discussion is coming.

(seriously. Don't. Erase that bit of information from your mind. Good? Good.)

I suggest sticking to RTK. It is basic and easy to understand, as long as you give it enough time to seep in. It is only a stepping stone, which will deal with the scariest part of Japanese and allow you to delve into the less scary, but much more time-consuming part =). It may just be my impression but I think you're rushing it and expect instant comprehension instead of trying to understand and then expect results. No matter what method you opt for, that won't offer results with anything.

Japanese is scary and it takes a long time before it even starts looking familiar, but once the scare goes away it's all good =).

If you do want a more traditional approach, there are beginner textbooks(minna no nihongo or genki are common options), there are audio lessons(japanesepod101 maybe? They have absolute beginner sections), etc.

But what confuses me is that you say courses are boring, after stating that you're used to a textbook approach and not accepting an unusual approach since it differs so much. Maybe you should stop focusing on the end-goal for a bit and work on your approach first? There are many resources and how-tos aimed at beginners.

Suisei Wrote:So, lately I've been getting stressed out on trying to learn japanese. I want to live there someday.

You don't need to speak Japanese to live in Japan. You can easily get by with a few words and some pointing. If you move there and find you need to speak more, you can study it then.

There, feel less stressed now?

Btw, you'd be crazy to start as a total beginner with AJATT - it's too much too soon. Personally I started with a traditional textbook (Japanese for Busy People: kana edition) after finishing Remembering the Kana. At the same time I supplemented this with Pimsleur Japanese, Rosetta Stone and Japanese Pod. Try lots of methods, see what's good for you.

RtK takes a while to get into, you just have to stick with it; it helps if you make up your own stories.

Good luck with Japanese. It's a long term commitment so don't feel you have to do it all at once.

Have you seen Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners thread? It has some handy resources and advice.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...earning-it

俺が憎いか？

All you need to do is learn something every day. Simple enough. :-)

If you want to learn Kanji first, learn a few kanji every day and don't worry about anything else. Learning "only" a few a day is surely better than getting overwhelmed, quitting, and posting on forums about how confusing it all is, right?

vix86 Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:Ah, American problems...

There, fixed it for you.

Reminds me of Louis CK's 'single people problems' bit, although he also has a couple white people problems bits.

(Both "American problems" and "white people problems" aren't exactly perfect phrases. "White people problems" is usually used in order to acknowledge the vast differences in standard of living for whites compared to blacks or Hispanics in America. There are a lot of people in America who have real problems, and most of them aren't white.)

Ahh, I miss the stereotypes that many people of various ethnic minorities in America hold that all white people are rich and dine on crust-less cucumber sandwiches at the country club every Sunday.

Reminds me of living in Texas.

you can find some good videos from the japanese foundation called "I'm yan" . there are 2 sets of 26 videos each and are entertaining enough to have you laugh some times. I advise them strongly (search for aploosh on youtube). also the pimsleur audio learning can familiarize you with common phrases and basic pattern of japanese.

Tzadeck Wrote:Expect learning Japanese to take about seven years if you want to be good enough to read novels for adults.

I'm not sure I agree.

For me, yeah, it's going to be about 5-7 years. I'm at year 3 or 4 now, and I can read some light novels, but not many. And quite a bit of manga, but not the hardest stuff.

The thing is, I'm really super duper lazy. I almost never study. I wouldn't even say I read a lot. I certainly don't read anywhere near like how often I read in English.

At my super lazy pace, just by keeping going, I've managed to achieve what I once thought wouldn't be possible for me. Even watching movies and anime without subs is starting to become possible, for the easiest stuff. And I have a language partner and generally understand what she's saying, though I'm pretty sure she's going easy on me. She's certainly impressed that I can understand, though.

So I would put 7 years as an outside target, if you just keep at it. You don't need to FOCUS or kill yourself at it. Just keep trying.

(Just checked... I'm at year 4 now.)

Jarvik7 Wrote:Ahh, I miss the stereotypes that many people of various ethnic minorities in America hold that all white people are rich and dine on crust-less cucumber sandwiches at the country club every Sunday.

Reminds me of living in Texas.

You have to admit, those sandwiches are really good.

I kid, I kid!

... yeah, if it's taking 7 years you're probably doing something wrong. i'd say 1-2 years is enough really if you're studying at a reasonable pace. You don't really need more than core6k + some descriptive words to read and understand a book.

Maybe 7 years if you mean understand every word you ever see in books, but i don't know if even 7 years would be enough for that... i guess it depends on the book.

I read novels for adults after 3 years of self-study and experience living in Japan.
You have to be dumb or doing something wrong if it takes 7.

[Zgarbas]

*ahem*

2 years is what it takes a college student to get to N4 level. That's what them normal peeps call a reasonable pace.

Just because some people here have had extraordinary dedication and(obviously) results doesn't make that the norm.

lol. taking 2 years to get to N4 if you're in college learning Japanese with all the free time in the world is pretty much unforgivable.

If you have a job in something else, a family, and other restrictions on time, it's a different story, but...

The road has been laid out for you by a few brave souls leading the way. All you need to do is follow it.

Sometimes I feel that learning Japanese shouldn't be this easy. But if you lack dedication, you will fail no matter what you do.

Zgarbas Wrote:*ahem*

2 years is what it takes a college student to get to N4 level. That's what them normal peeps call a reasonable pace.

I think it must depend on the university/country. As in the UK, you get to N4 level (or old JLPT 3) after 1 year at college, and that's moving at an average pace and doing no study outside of class.

It's hard when you are starting out. There are so many conflicting opinions but I think the most important thing is doing kana, then getting basic grammar down eg. JLPT 3/4 (I think n4/n5 in new levels?) Once you've done that grammar then you have done, hmm 90%?, of the everyday grammar you will come across - which gives you such a good foundation for reading native things.

[Zgarbas]

Bologna system . It's a peach. They cut off the hours and the material and made the degree useless.

System aside, it took me 4 years to get to N4... I guess some of us are slower?

Zgarbas Wrote:Bologna system . It's a peach. They cut off the hours and the material and made the degree useless.

System aside, it took me 4 years to get to N4... I guess some of us are slower?

Yes. Everyone moves at a different pace. And it really depends on what you do, and the time you put in... It's especially hard when you are still at school, or perhaps when you have a career, when it is so easy to push it aside as there is other 'more important' stuff to do.

well, i don't think that it's necessarily that some people are just slower. It generally comes down to time put in, and method, i guess.

On the other hand, you probably come out of college able to speak better than someone whose concentrated on reading / listening more, so it's probably a trade off.

IceCream Wrote:well, i don't think that it's necessarily that some people are just slower. It generally comes down to time put in, and method, i guess.

Ya, we're really not so unique snowflakes as we seem to think.

In the case of Japanese especially, there's so many ways to make your learning miserably slow and ineffective. No SRS? Learning writing+recognition+readings+meanings of kanji simultaneously? Happen to have bad grammar material/class focused on "survival" Japanese that only teaches you useful set phrases you don't understand? "Let's go through Kana in a semester, and 10 kanji if we're fast."

So much time wasted on that crap. Sigh.

[Zgarbas]

The most important obstacle I (well, and the 75& of my class which dropped out already...) encountered was just the scariness and lack of support. With the risk of getting personal.

year 1: attended this night class of Japanese. The bad timing helped, but I got stuck at hiragana. I did attend a few more couple of months but I felt extremely behind and just got nervous and dropped out.
year 2: enrolled in Uni. Learned hiragana in a week. Cursed at myself for not studying more the previous year. Kept at it for a year, got to N5 level(N4 if it wasn't for the grammar).
year 3: Various personal issues+some bad encounters at uni(also all the friends I made failed the year...) and I kind of took a break. smart.fm closing down didn't help my recovery. This was a year off.
year 4(ok, technically 3 and a half): get back to my studies following various episodes. Signed up for the N4 and basically recovered everything I had forgotten in 2 months and then some... and here I am now. Aiming for the N2 this December since it's the last year in which I can dedicate so much time to Japanese.

So yes, technically it did only take me a year and a half of(not so intense) active study to get to N4, but I was slowed down by the obstacles and general scariness of the language. I think it's kind of normal? I did run into many of my former colleagues, which were only now taking he N5/N4 for the same reason. It's common, at least where I'm from. Japanese can be scary, and unless you have a motivation of steel or an excellent teacher or a good guide or a good support group or what not then the scariness can get to you. And that's ignoring the fact that each person can only dedicate so much time to it. Or the fact that some are just more natural learners than others, or found a good method quicker, could afford it or what not.

(and now that I realize it it's only 3 years and a half since i started. Yay for a bad time sense!)

P.S.

Quote:Happen to have bad grammar material/class focused on "survival" Japanese that only teaches you useful set phrases you don't understand? "Let's go through Kana in a semester, and 10 kanji if we're fast."

Fun fact. We learned how to say 日本の生活に慣れましたか　in our first month. However, we only learned the verb 慣れます last week...so about 1 year and a half afterwards. My favorite part was that after we read 慣れます aloud the teacher pointed it out, something among the lines of "You recognize this verb, right?" and half the class uttered the question on command.