Eikyu Wrote:Two years is the time it would take to reach N1 at a language school, studying full time. It really depends on how much time you can commit. I think that reaching N1 in two years would at least require something like one to two hours of study per day.

I think people vastly underestimate N1. If you studied every day of the year for two hours a day for two years you will have studied just 1460 hours. The Japanese Language Education Center average number of study hours needed to have passed N1 if you had no kanji knowledge prior to studying Japanese is 3,100-4,500 hours. It's waaaaay more than 2 hours a day for two years.

If you wanted to study, say, 4,000 hours in two years, you would have to study five and a half hours a day, without missing a day for all 730 days.

I think I've studied Japanese way more than 4,000 hours, over the course of six years, and I still think I am more likely than not to have failed N1 in December. Results pending. Also, I did RTK and used SRS.

Fillanzea Wrote:Precisely, vonPeterhof. I just thought I had to interject that because most people who haven't done linguistics coursework don't really have a good grasp on why linguists have different standards than English teachers when it comes to which sentences are grammatical, but I figured I was going to get derailed by "But lots of native speakers have bad grammar!" if I made the unqualified assertion that the vast majority of people are perfectly fluent speakers of their own native language.

Ya I think this is a good point.

I realize that your prior post was meant to point out the difference between operational definitions of "grammatical" between English and Linguistics, but it reminded me of something else in concern to writing.

I've heard it said that many linguistics are now starting to view written language as a second language. As kids we can pick up spoken language in a fairly passive manner. It doesn't take much hard work on our part to learn our mother tongue. However, when it finally comes to learn to read and write it can be one of the most grueling tasks for many. So trying to view the written system of something as a fully connected with the speaking part of a language is bit invalid in my take; they are defiantly related but not enough that anyone could ever divine the meaning in a written language without it being told to them (Just look at the Rosetta stone for proof).

Tzadeck Wrote:I think people vastly underestimate N1. If you studied every day of the year for two hours a day for two years you will have studied just 1460 hours. The Japanese Language Education Center average number of study hours needed to have passed N1 if you had no kanji knowledge prior to studying Japanese is 3,100-4,500 hours. It's waaaaay more than 2 hours a day for two years.

If you wanted to study, say, 4,000 hours in two years, you would have to study five and a half hours a day, without missing a day for all 730 days.

I think I've studied Japanese way more than 4,000 hours, over the course of six years, and I still think I am more likely than not to have failed N1 in December. Results pending. Also, I did RTK and used SRS.

Yeah, two hours of day was a low estimate. Your estimate is probably way better.

My point is that becoming an advanced learner (N1 level) requires a lot of time. I think that Dizmox is off the mark when he says that 2-3 years should be enough. Many people study something like 3 hours a week. At that rate, it would take around 25 years to pass N1 (3900 hours of study). Only the most dedicated learners will manage to reach an advanced level in 2-3 years. They're probably the top 1%, not the 99%

Hello!

I've been at the same point many times.
Whenever that happens (and trust me it will happen again!), take a break. Forget about STUDYING Japanese, but try to do other things you enjoy involving Japanese somehow (e.g. listening to Japanese music, watching anime, chatting/mailing with Japanese friends) etc.

Honestly for me that's the only thing that worked. It never helped to stress out over what to do next, it will come naturally after that break!

Once you're in Japan things will change anyways.
Your motivation and situation are gonna be completely different!

Even if you have to take a LONGER break, don't give up!

Eikyu Wrote:Yeah, two hours of day was a low estimate. Your estimate is probably way better.

My point is that becoming an advanced learner (N1 level) requires a lot of time. I think that Dizmox is off the mark when he says that 2-3 years should be enough. Many people study something like 3 hours a week. At that rate, it would take around 25 years to pass N1 (3900 hours of study). Only the most dedicated learners will manage to reach an advanced level in 2-3 years. They're probably the top 1%, not the 99%

Another fun way of thinking of 4,000 hours of study is that it's 167 entire 24-hour days of study. Or about 24 weeks of 24 hour-a-day studying. Basically, if you spend an entire half a year of your life studying Japanese, you can pass N1 (which shows how inconceivable it is to pass N1 in a year--you'd have to study 11 or 12 hours a day).

In my experience, people who study seriously (while still having a life) can get to JLPT1 level within 3 years (assuming balanced study, not just cramming specifically for the test).

I personally went from nothing in 2006 to getting nearly 100% on JLPT2 in 2008 to getting a good score on JLPT1 in 2009. I didn't even study every day let alone do AJATT (never really read any books or watched any anime/movies in Japanese-only).

The best mentality is to view the study of Japanese as a lifelong endeavor. JLPT 1 is just the beginning in so many ways.

Jarvik7 Wrote:In my experience, people who study seriously (while still having a life) can get to JLPT1 level within 3 years (assuming balanced study, not just cramming specifically for the test).

I personally went from nothing in 2006 to getting nearly 100% on JLPT2 in 2008 to getting a good score on JLPT1 in 2009. I didn't even study every day let alone do AJATT (never really read any books or watched any anime/movies in Japanese-only).

This is what I like to hear more of, more how anyone can do it. It doesn't matter where your coming but rather, how much are you willing to commit

kitakitsune Wrote:The best mentality is to view the study of Japanese as a lifelong endeavor. JLPT 1 is just the beginning in so many ways.

that's definitely my mindset now. It's because I keep hitting a wall in Japanese, even though it definitely feels like I've made amazing improvements from when I first started.
Best way to know you've gotten far is to think back to when you started, the difference is all the results you need to keep going forward.

kitakitsune Wrote:The best mentality is to view the study of Japanese as a lifelong endeavor. JLPT 1 is just the beginning in so many ways.

Not to berate you or anyone else that feels this way, but I had a conversation with someone that had passed the JLPT1 himself and I had actually made the offhand comment of "1kyuu is only the start..." that many do here. He jumped on me for that comment.

Basically, "Assuming all areas of your skill can match the JLPT 1 (writing as well). Then the 1kyuu is all any normal person will ever need. You could get by on just 2kyuu. Not everyone that comes to Japan and passes the 1kyuu really see's the need to go further, its more than enough to let you function at native level on a daily basis. The only people that are looking to go further than 1kyuu are really those that are in love with the language or looking to pursue something linguistically (academia)."

I agree a lot with what he said although I do think most people will need a bit more vocab to pretty much match an adult; however, as far as functioning and discussing somewhat difficult topics goes, JLPT 1 is more than enough.

If for somebody JLPT1 is an aim in itself then you should feel sorry for them. Learning language is not like learning maths, physics etc. and it is surprising how quickly language skills can evaporate if not cultivated. You don't learn other language to pass some exam - you learn it to use it in different aspects of your life. And if you stop using those painfully acquired skills you lose them, it's that simple. If you take that point of view, JLPT1 truly is just a milestone in your lifetime commitment.

@vix: Don't think so...
JLPT1 is enough to get by sure, but not enough to function fully and comfortably in life (fully understand novels for adults/movies with ease, have deep and meaningful discussions about complex subjects, etc). It all depends on what you want to do. NO Japanese skill at all is enough for some expats to get by in Japan.

If your friend meant "effortlessly passed JLPT1 with 100%" then he might have a point.

Most people just want native-level abilities in all skills, that's the main goal. For me personally, that's pretty much my main goal. I don't see any point to "keep" going after that point but maintaining and keeping a steady pace of learning (at a real slow pace) is a good thing to look at as well

kitakitsune Wrote:The best mentality is to view the study of Japanese as a lifelong endeavor. JLPT 1 is just the beginning in so many ways.

I read a guitar book about improving your playing technique, and the author talked about how he learned something once when he was giving a guitar seminar. He was talking about how if you want to improve your playing you should try to expand the number of techniques and riffs you can do without thinking, so that you can spice up your playing and be a unique guitar player thanks to your versatility.

Afterwards he talked to a lot of people who attended the seminar, and he was asking people what they thought. One guy say "It was a good seminar, but it really wasn't meant for me so I don't think it will help my playing." The author couldn't imagine what the man could mean by this until he explained, "I don't want to be a great guitar player. I have a job and kids, it's not like I'm going to be a rock star someday or even do more than an open mic. I just want to be able to play hit songs or holiday songs for my friends and family. I can do that just fine without practicing unique riffs or techniques."

So, the author learned that people don't necessarily have the ambition he does with guitar playing. Some people have a much more limited goal.

Why would you assume what is just the beginning for someone? Learners' goals are not all the same. If you're saying that JLPT1 does not make you anything near a native speaker, well, I think that's obvious enough to not have to say it.

[Zgarbas]

Inny Jan Wrote:If for somebody JLPT1 is an aim in itself then you should feel sorry for them. Learning language is not like learning maths, physics etc. and it is surprising how quickly language skills can evaporate if not cultivated. You don't learn other language to pass some exam - you learn it to use it in different aspects of your life. And if you stop using those painfully acquired skills you lose them, it's that simple. If you take that point of view, JLPT1 truly is just a milestone in your lifetime commitment.

Oh wow. Sorry, this is the last time I post here, I promise. I can't help it.

If for somebody Getting an A at their International Advanced Mathematics Exam is an aim in itself then you should feel sorry for them. Learning Maths is not like learning language, historyetc. and it is surprising how quickly Math skills can evaporate if not cultivated. You don't learn other sciences to pass some exam - you learn it to use it in different aspects of your life. And if you stop using those painfully acquired skills you lose them, it's that simple. If you take that point of view, International Advanced Mathematics Exam is truly is just a milestone in your lifetime commitment.


Surely you realize that you are at just one end of one spectrum?


Edit: I meant on this thread . (and aww, thanks <3).

vix86 Wrote:its more than enough to let you function at native level on a daily basis

Uhmn.... with the key words being 'on a daily basis' (and taking it on face value that it's true, as I don't live in Japan to see.) If you're happy with not being able to properly understand movies and dramas with deep plots or read a novel then that's fine.

However, for -me-, giving up reading is more than I can bear to do. I'd abandon the language if I didn't think I'd be able to smoothly read novels one day (I can already read them choppily, with an uncomfortable amount of dictionary time, but I keep getting better.) Maybe reading popular detective and SF&F novels qualifies as 'academia' now, heh.

Zgarbas Wrote:Surely you realize that you are at just one end of one spectrum?

Well, I do. But then I would ask people from the other end "So, you got your paper - what are you going to do now?"

Zgarbas Wrote:Sorry, this is the last time I post here, I promise.

I hope you won't keep your promise, so far I enjoyed reading your posts.

When people say that you could study "8 hours a day" or whatever, is that really the case though? I have way more free time these days than I'd like to even admit, so I have the means to study hardcore if I feel like it. But in the end can you just, say, cram vocab into your head without hitting diminishing returns at some point? Also, as far as grammar goes, I feel like I shouldn't get too far ahead with grammar when my vocab base is still as small as it is currently, since I won't be able to practice what I've learnt outside Anki (yet).

Usually I'm pretty much done in 2 hours and can't think of a way to do something more.

You do SRS for 2 hrs so you don't forget, right? Why not spend the rest of your available time on stuff that you allow yourself to forget? Like, looking up words with kanji that you already know, taking a textbook and do some exercises, read those kana and improve your reading speed, practise writing (if you care), etc.

SRS is there so you don't forget but it won't improve your fluency/speed.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Usually I'm pretty much done in 2 hours and can't think of a way to do something more.

It sounds like you've set artificial daily limits for your studies. If you are able to learn more, and you want to learn more, then learn more. How can you discover what your limit is if you don't actually try it? 2 hours sounds too little for someone with (what I'm guessing is) whole days with few other commitments.

I'm not sure if people include non-study immersion as part of their "8 hours a day", but I can see 6 hours on some days being attainable for someone who wants it badly enough and has the time.

And cram vocab. It's the thing to do in 2012.

I'm not sure why not, I guess I'm just a fan of structure. As in "now I do this, when I am done I move on to the next step". It's a bad habit I admit. Granted, I do try to read and 'translate' some stuff on the go for fun but my grammar and vocab just isn't sufficient enough for that sort of thing yet. However, it's a great feeling to see a compound you just learned 'in the wild' and be able to understand.

I don't think I'm able to learn that much more vocab per day. Not that I've seriously given it a go, but I see myself hitting a threshold right now somewhere after 30-50 new words, where the amount of cards I forget immediately grows so large they'll never stick.. Usually I stop whenever I see myself constantly juggling between the same 10 failed cards.

If I knew readings things would be different, but usually the new words consist of kanji that have an unknown reading for me. So before I get past that threshold I can't see myself really being able to ramp up vocab learning.

I've never studied Japanese for 8 hours a day in my life. This isn't a competition to see who can study the most.

Eikyu Wrote:

dizmox Wrote:

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:I agree completely. 2-3 years is unrealistically fast for most people, and 7+ sounds more accurate.

There is no reason to take 7+ years. People only take that long if they barely study/study ineffectually - is learning at a decent pace for 2-3 years really that unrealistic? I think people set the bar too low for themselves.

I think you're overestimating people's abilities/free time. A lot of Japanese language learners never reach an advanced level. And those that do have lived in Japan for a long time and/or studied their ass off. Two years is the time it would take to reach N1 at a language school, studying full time. It really depends on how much time you can commit. I think that reaching N1 in two years would at least require something like one to two hours of study per day.

Well yes, I meant if you're a dedicated learner you should be able to find a couple hours a day to study hard. When I was working a 9-5.30 job I had plenty of free time in the evening but that's just my own experiences...

Betelgeuzah Wrote:If I knew readings things would be different, but usually the new words consist of kanji that have an unknown reading for me. So before I get past that threshold I can't see myself really being able to ramp up vocab learning.

What resource are you using? Kanji Odyssey addresses this well by giving you a bunch of words that use the same character and several words for each reading. They also reuse those words regularly, giving you practice at both the word and by extension the readings in it. It seems to be working quite well for me, and others have said the same about it before. It might be pointless to start KO now though if you already know a decent chunk of the words in it. 30-50 words a day is still pretty damn good, though. That's 900-1500 a month, or 10950-18250 a year!

For those difficult words that never stick, I pluck out and put into a separate deck with just the word itself and some English meaning on the answer side. Those can be reviewed quite quickly, and they give me an additional exposure to the word, which helps a lot. Also, if a card is giving you trouble, just bury it (Ctrl+Shift+b). It's like suspend, but for a session only. If they frustrate you enough, you are more likely to procrastinate or quit to try and avoid them, because you aren't having much fun anymore. Bury the difficult cards so you can interrogate them another time, when you aren't angry at them.

I still think you should fill in the extra spare time if you still have some studying left in you.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I've never studied Japanese for 8 hours a day in my life. This isn't a competition to see who can study the most.

I did it once... we actually had 8 hours of class one day at work (definitely not our choice). Only did it once, and everything after about hour 5 was extremely unproductive. Even the teacher couldn't be arsed doing anything. To make matters worse, it was our first lesson!

As for total hours, I got to N2 in just under 2 years. The hours count for that is supposed to be 1400-2000 hours. The low end of that works out to about 2 hours a day average. I'll tell you right now i did not average 2 hours a day. Maybe there were some days where i studied for 2-3 hours, but there were also entire multi-week periods where i did *no* japanese. I'd be surprised if my overall average was higher than an hour a day. I'm assuming the N1 figure is similarly bogus.

Man, the thought occurs to me that i've probably spent more time reading and posting on this damn website than i have actually learning japanese.