That is too bad but really, Japan isn't a victim. When the Tsunami hit all the weeaboos were eager to donate and feel sympathy for a country that is one of the few with the capability and means to get back to their feet almost instantly. Haiti on the other hand....

Plus, you can bet that the Japanese would say the same damn thing if were USA hit with a quake. I bet they are at this very moment claiming themselves as superior while West is inferior whether the topic be working culture or whatever.

That's just how it goes and every country is the same in that regard, no need to make it a personal issue.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:That is too bad but really, Japan isn't a victim. When the Tsunami hit all the weeaboos were eager to donate and feel sympathy for a country that is one of the few with the capability and means to get back to their feet almost instantly. Haiti on the other hand....

Plus, you can bet that the Japanese would say the same damn thing if were USA hit with a quake. I bet they are at this very moment claiming themselves as superior while West is inferior whether the topic be working culture or whatever.

That's just how it goes and every country is the same in that regard, no need to make it a personal issue.

I never claimed Japan was a victim, I am saying that many people are racist idiots and should be called out on it.

Some Japanese people like to think they have more sophisticated tastes re:food or that they are more civil (less violent crime etc), but you don't really know much about Japan if you think they would react in the same way when losing a soccer match to China (let's perform more human experimentation!!!1) or because people go hunting (damn cracker barbarians, we should bomb Hawaii again!!!1).

The only reaction would be lots of donations followed by some over-dramatic special with a geinoujin traveling (and constantly crying) in the area post-recovery like with every major disaster previously.

In any case it's not very comparable, because people in Japan don't tend to point fingers at other countries and demand change. There isn't much activism to begin with here, but when there is it's always domestic.

"Plus, you can bet that the Japanese would say the same damn thing if were USA hit with a quake. I bet they are at this very moment claiming themselves as superior while West is inferior whether the topic be working culture or whatever."

I don't think the Japanese would say stuff like that. They tested the theory 70 years ago and had their asses handed to them.

The fear of losing another war isn't what keeps people from making stupid comments. The education system post-war has been geared towards creating a pacifist society.

I don't know what calling out on them would change, really. Are they going to stop? Are the rest of the population going to realize that the opinions of said minority are moronic? I think they already do know that.

I can see why Japan would be less obvious when it comes to stuff like pointing fingers (West can be vocal as hell when they want to be) but the internet offers great opportunities for anonymous Japanese to show what they really think. That doesn't mean that they are going to act on it or even think about acting. But it shows what some people truly feel.

Let's face it, what people say on the internet is 99.9% talk and leads nowhere.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Another interesting point I would like to make: Does meat actually taste good? Or do we disguise the blandness of meat by using herbs and spices, sauces, and marinades?

Err... because we always eat meat with herbs, spices, etc? When i cook a steak, i often put *nothing* on it, not even salt. It tastes delicious.

zigmonty Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Another interesting point I would like to make: Does meat actually taste good? Or do we disguise the blandness of meat by using herbs and spices, sauces, and marinades?

Err... because we always eat meat with herbs, spices, etc? When i cook a steak, i often put *nothing* on it, not even salt. It tastes delicious.

Indeed. Most true meat lovers I know find the idea of putting sauce/herbs on a nice cut of meat appalling. At most a bit of pepper.

Even if people always drowned their meat in ketchup that means nothing. How many people eat a full meal of vegetables without any seasoning or condiments at all?

Jarvik7 Wrote:Re nadia's article, the author is obviously cherry picking data and stretching the truth in places. The biggest problem is the fallacy that there are three clean groups of animal: carnivore, omnivore, herbivore. The reality is that it is a scale that spans from no plants to no meat. Humans can be omnivores while being closer to herbivores on the scale than to a lion

Obviously the author is biased and is cherry picking sources that agree with their stance, because it is an article designed to convince. Are there any bits you obviously disagree with? The article acknowledges that humans like other primates have likely always been very slightly omnivorous (less than 5% animal-based food and mostly bugs) and consequently can eat meat. The point is that you can't use that to argue that a highly omnivorous diet (say 50/50 plants/meat) is optimal.

nadiatims Wrote:Obviously the author is biased and is cherry picking sources that agree with their stance, because it is an article designed to convince. Are there any bits you obviously disagree with? The article acknowledges that humans like other primates have likely always been very slightly omnivorous (less than 5% animal-based food and mostly bugs) and consequently can eat meat. The point is that you can't use that to argue that a highly omnivorous diet (say 50/50 plants/meat) is optimal.

Is that how you are "convinced"? Far more convincing, in my opinion, would be to lay down the cold hard facts without cherry picking and let them speak for itself. Now it seems like the author is making up for holes in his argument with the "no bullshit"-attitude. And I don't even know if there are any holes in that argument.

Slightly extremist article is good for provoking discussion, not to convince. That's why it is too bad the author rejects all discussion on the subject, making the article quite full of fluff, hiding the relevant details that I am sure exist.

Obviously one-sided and cherry picked articles won't convince anyone who isn't already leaning in that direction. It's essentially wankery confirmation bias material.

The author addresses a bunch of common counter claims, and cites most of their sources. You could dismiss pretty much any article that presents a strong case for anything as "wankery confirmation bias material". What are the bits you disagree with?

Jarvik7 Wrote:There is nothing specifically cruel about whale/dolphin hunting or eating dog or horse meat, some people are just emotionally obsessed with "majestic" animals. If the way the animals are butchered is cruel, that is an issue separate from consumption itself.

I agree that horses and dogs can probably be killed humanely and that it is hypocritical/result of cultural bias to complain about their consumption when pigs and cattle are farmed and eaten in the West. There are problems inherent in killing whales because of their size and the difficulty of accurate harpoon placement. I believe that a veterinarian accompanies the Norwegian whalers to document kill times, but I am unsure if Japan has independent observers on board it's fleet.

To quote Dr Little, a ship’s physician on an Antarctic whaling expedition in 1946.

“If we can imagine a horse having two or three explosive spears stuck into its stomach and being made to pull a butcher’s truck through the streets of London while it pours blood in the gutter, we shall have an idea of the present method of killing. The gunners themselves admit that if whales could scream, the industy would stop, for nobody would be able to stand it.”

Nothing much has changed in the interim. If this was happening in public view, whaling would be banned tomorrow.

Japan used to be notorious for very long kill times of up to 30 minutes. They used to (until mid 1990s) electrocute harpooned whales. (an operation fraught with difficulty because of the marine environment) but this has been changed because of Western pressure. (Not sure what they do now).

I am very grateful for Sea Shepherd for keeping this issue alive. I believe the situation in Antarctica would be far worse without their efforts, and, living in New Zealand, would like to see a marine sanctuary enforced there. In no way do I endorse racist comments. I believe the OP was being sincere in trying to untangle some of the cultural differences towards animal cruelty. Both "culture" and "animal cruelty" are emotive and amorphous terms; the topic probably merits a book (such as Stephen Pinker's tome on human violence) rather than a thread on the Internet.

It would be interesting to compare respective legislation / prosecution towards animal rights across countries.

Mennon Wrote:"Plus, you can bet that the Japanese would say the same damn thing if were USA hit with a quake. I bet they are at this very moment claiming themselves as superior while West is inferior whether the topic be working culture or whatever."

I don't think the Japanese would say stuff like that. They tested the theory 70 years ago and had their asses handed to them.

You've clearly never seen 2ch and nicovideo; the worst of the virulent racism is reserved mostly for Koreans (particularly 在日 Koreans) but there's plenty directed at Chinese and Westerners also.

I expected 2ch would come up, but that is trolling, not people posting mixi/twitter つぶやき or blog posts under their real names. Still lame though.

Even if is it trolling I think it still points to some underlying cultural element. It's not like the trolls are choosing racist comments towards 在日 completely at random.

Aren't Japanese very concerned about retaining anonymity anyway?

I don't think even many Westerners want to be linked to any extreme opinions. The culture at least where I live can be very hostile towards extreme views.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:In Japan, there is no such laws protecting chimpanzees... what happened instead was that the scientists and researchers convened and made an agreement between themselves that they would no longer use chimpanzees in medical experiments, as it's unethical.

In one way, i think it's quite amazing & beautiful that they acheived this on their own just through diplomacy and relationships between scientists, but on the other hand, it shows how difficult it is to influence legal regulation in things like that. And obviously, legal regulation offers protection in ways a "gentlemens agreement" can't, so it's not ideal.

If what you say is true, then it is certainly quite amazing that this positive result has come about through self-regulation (a libertarian ideal), rather than the result being imposed by another party (ie. government).

I suspect however, that this positive self-regulation is an exception to the rule (profit at all costs).

Yeah, it is an exception, and i'm sure the cost involved in such research also played a factor. Anyway, it took from 1998 to 2006 to end research on Chimpanzees in Japan this way, and it was the end of last year, when i was at PRI when Kyoto University finally acquired the chimpanzees at Uto, meaning they're finally safe from the medical company.

I have a report on the process, so if you're interested, feel free to email me & i'll forward it to you.

I made a mistake in my last post though... i said Europe and America, but America actually still use Chimpanzees in medical research, and have about 1000 left being used in this way. There have been movements recently towards it's close though, with this good news:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/1...port/all/1

qwertyytrewq Wrote:I hope the rest of you are right and that the squid in the Japanese restaurant is already dead. Still, when the squid was wiping soy sauce from its eye, it looked pretty alive.

One of the problems with this is that we don't really understand cephalopod consciousness because their nervous system is organised very differently from our own. It's widely distributed, and although there is still a "brain", other parts of the nervous system in the legs are known to be able to function in complex ways without the aid of the brain.
Not a great deal is really known about cephalopod sensation, only guesses can be made really at this point, as far as i know.
(i didn't watch the video before posting this, so this comment isn't directly about that.)

Oh... here's a link to some recent articles in Japanese about the pet trade in Japan. Life isn't always great being a pet there either, as petshop practices, at least from a British perspective are horribly outdated now.
http://wedge.ismedia.jp/category/pet

Tzadeck Wrote:This is posted on a website pertaining to Japan? In Japan alone I've had raw fish, raw goat, raw horse, raw beef, and raw pork. Humans eat raw meat all the time.

Nice for Japan but the vast majority of anyone in any country prefer to cook their meat as opposed to eating it raw.

Can't actually say I've heard of things like eating raw chicken, pork etc though... or been to any restaurant that does so.

Tzadeck Wrote:In say America, no we don't really eat raw meat. It's just a cultural thing.

Oh okay, so humans don't actually eat raw meat all the time. Rather, it would be more accurate to say that a few humans eat raw meat very occasionally.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I see nothing wrong with that when the criticism is ALWAYS framed as the west being superior morally/developmentally. If the focus was on "xyz is bad, for example in China and France and blah blah" then I would leave it as that, but instead it's always "Japanese people are barbarians, goddamn backwards yellow people I'm glad thousands died in the tsunami and we should nuke them again".

Though I agree with your sentiment, this doesn't apply here because this is my thread (I already acknowledged that every country has their own faults), and because this is RtK forums (where stupid people are the minority, as opposed to the majority in other mainstream run-out-of-the-mill forums).

My thread here isn't framing the West as being morally superior in regards to animal welfare. Actually, it is instead asking the question, not asserting it.

Some people in thread has responded by saying that in the West, there is a stronger presence of activism in regards to animal welfare when compared to the East. So ignoring everything else, the West might be morally superior. If however, you or anyone else think the West is morally inferior (or the East is superior), feel free to offer any evidence.

If the West is in fact, morally superior when it comes to animal welfare, then that basically gives them the right to criticise* other countries because it shows that they (the West) not only talk the talk, they walk the walk. In other words, the West, in regards to animal welfare, is setting an example and no-one can disagree with that stance.

Compare that to the climate change situation. Every once in a while, America criticises China about its pollution and its carbon emissions. So what does China say? Of course: "perhaps America should set an example and fix their own backyard before criticising others". America uses that exact same kindergarten excuse.

*Actually any country can criticise any other country. However, the criticism is more effective if the nation making it follows what it preaches.

Jarvik7 Wrote:That is not exaggeration, that is the typical line of the Sea Shepherd supporter. The exact same comments happen regarding soccer, so it's clearly just racism/xenophobia tacked on to token activism.

I've heard those same exact comments but again, the typical Sea Shepherd supporter registers with mainstream forums, not RtK.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:That is too bad but really, Japan isn't a victim. When the Tsunami hit all the weeaboos were eager to donate and feel sympathy for a country that is one of the few with the capability and means to get back to their feet almost instantly. Haiti on the other hand....

For context, which post were you replying to when you say that Japan isn't victim?

Anyway, in this case. Japan is a victim, of the disasters earlier this year.

As for your point about people caring about Japan but not caring about black/dark brown/light brown people, I refer you to this: http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_wha...phere.html

Basically, you care about your family but not about someone else's family (someone else's family has no relevance to you) the same way people care about Japan but not, say, Haiti, a country which has no relevance to them personally. Same concept, just extrapolated.

I don't know how to solve that problem.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Plus, you can bet that the Japanese would say the same damn thing if were USA hit with a quake. I bet they are at this very moment claiming themselves as superior while West is inferior whether the topic be working culture or whatever.

You can bet but can you actually find widespread mainstream examples of such a thing?

I refer you to one of my other threads: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=8755

I'll be surprised if you can find the same amount of vitriol and bigotry made on that large a scale.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Some Japanese people like to think they have more sophisticated tastes re:food or that they are more civil (less violent crime etc), but you don't really know much about Japan if you think they would react in the same way when losing a soccer match to China (let's perform more human experimentation!!!1) or because people go hunting (damn cracker barbarians, we should bomb Hawaii again!!!1).

On the other hand Betelgeuzah, I won't be surprised if you can find widespread examples of anti-Japan bigotry made by Chinese.

Harpagornes Wrote:It would be interesting to compare respective legislation / prosecution towards animal rights across countries.

That's one way of figuring out whether the West is in fact, morally superior to other countries when it comes to animal welfare.

And that's the point of my thread.

However, although I'm anti-whaling, I'm not a fan of the Sea Shepherd and believe they to be doing more harm than good. Their supporters are far too prone to the "let's bomb the Japanese again" rhetoric and if they had any power and influence on government, people will start getting killed, not just whales.

Greenpeace however, I mostly have no problems with. They distanced themselves from Sea Shepherd, for good reason.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I expected 2ch would come up, but that is trolling, not people posting mixi/twitter つぶやき or blog posts under their real names. Still lame though.

You've probably seen it already, but for anyone who hasn't, I refer them to my thread: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=8755

Making bigoted comments anonymously is one thing, making bigoted comments while identifying yourself with your real name is another. Not only is it lame, it's worse (for humanity).

Betelgeuzah Wrote:I don't think even many Westerners want to be linked to any extreme opinions. The culture at least where I live can be very hostile towards extreme views.

It's very hard to quantify but the ones in my previous thread certainly aren't afraid: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=8755.

The problem with extreme opinions being made in the internet public is it has to be countered by reasoned and rational responses denouncing that opinion. With the internet as it is with many many voices, sometimes it feels that ignorant drowns out the rational and the informed.

IceCream Wrote:I made a mistake in my last post though... i said Europe and America, but America actually still use Chimpanzees in medical research, and have about 1000 left being used in this way. There have been movements recently towards it's close though, with this good news:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/1...port/all/1

Well then, in this particular and specific case, and ignoring everything else, Japan is morally superior when it comes to Chimpanzees being used in medical research, when compared to the USA, and I welcome Japan criticising America in this regard and because Japan is setting a positive example, their criticism would have more weight.

IceCream Wrote:Oh... here's a link to some recent articles in Japanese about the pet trade in Japan. Life isn't always great being a pet there either, as petshop practices, at least from a British perspective are horribly outdated now.
http://wedge.ismedia.jp/category/pet

I'll read it next year, after I finish Remembering the Kanji Vol.1 LOL.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Nice for Japan but the vast majority of anyone in any country prefer to cook their meat as opposed to eating it raw.

And with that all the Sushi restaurants and Japanese restaurants around the world magically disappear. The word that we commonly use is rare, but people do drink raw milk.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:This is posted on a website pertaining to Japan? In Japan alone I've had raw fish, raw goat, raw horse, raw beef, and raw pork. Humans eat raw meat all the time.

Nice for Japan but the vast majority of anyone in any country prefer to cook their meat as opposed to eating it raw.

Can't actually say I've heard of things like eating raw chicken, pork etc though... or been to any restaurant that does so.

Tzadeck Wrote:In say America, no we don't really eat raw meat. It's just a cultural thing.

Oh okay, so humans don't actually eat raw meat all the time. Rather, it would be more accurate to say that a few humans eat raw meat very occasionally.

It kind of just sounds like you haven't left whatever country you're from enough.

There's a million common raw meat dishes around the world: Steak tartare, sashimi, crudos, carpaccio, yukhoe, etc.

Even just in Japan raw meat is very common. Obviously, raw fish is served at just about any izakaya, sushiya, and most types of restaurants that serve Japanese food. Raw horse is also very common even at regular izakaya. Korean restaurants here often served completely raw yukhoe (I've certainly had it here) until a health scare just a few months ago. It's fairly common for Okinawan restaurants to have raw goat. Raw pork and raw chicken are also served in Japan occasionally, though they're not so common.

Many European countries also have raw meat dishes. Raw beef dishes especially are fairly common across many different cultures.

(I've read that raw meat is most common in Asian and African countries, but I don't actually know anything about African food)

Isn't raw pork and raw chicken terribly dangerous? S:

dizmox Wrote:Isn't raw pork and raw chicken terribly dangerous? S:

Trichinosis can certainly be fatal, so eating raw pork is more dangerous than not. However, you can raise pigs specifically in such a way to make sure they are not infected by the parasite. Basically this is done by keeping their living area clean and being careful about what you allow them to eat. In other words, cooking pork above a certain temperature happens to be the cheapest and easiest way to be protected against trichinosis, but it's not the only way. Eating some low-quality raw pork just from a regular grocery store is not a good idea (even though, to be honest, pork is no longer commonly infected with trichinosis in most first-world countries).

From what I understand, making sure chickens are not contaminated with salmonella is done in much the same way--by keeping the chickens in good clean living conditions and by making sure that during slaughter the meat doesn't come into contact with a contaminated surface. Luckily, even if you get food poisoning from salmonella you only have a very low chance of dying. However, your life is gonna suck for a few days and dehydration is an issue.

In Japan, raw chicken dishes seem to be most common in Kyushu. Sadly, the time I saw it on a menu in Kagoshima I didn't have it in me to try it... though I did try raw horse liver on my first trip to Kyushu when I was in Kumamoto.

(A great thing about Japan in general, by the way, is that people are very careful about how they handle and prepare food. You can rest easy in Japan even if you eat something that would normally give you pause.)

I've had raw chicken hearts at a chicken-specialty izakaya. They are quite good with wasabi.
Nama-ham is very popular here but it's actually smoked I believe.

Quote:(A great thing about Japan in general, by the way, is that people are very careful about how they handle and prepare food. You can rest easy in Japan even if you eat something that would normally give you pause.)

In the processing stage maybe, but I've had to rush to the toilet far more times in Japan than in Canada/America due to poorly prepared meat. The last matsuri I went to offered up nearly raw karaage, though thankfully I noticed.

There were also the yukhoe deaths awhile back.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I've had raw chicken hearts at a chicken-specialty izakaya. They are quite good with wasabi.
Nama-ham is very popular here but it's actually smoked I believe.

Quote:(A great thing about Japan in general, by the way, is that people are very careful about how they handle and prepare food. You can rest easy in Japan even if you eat something that would normally give you pause.)

In the processing stage maybe, but I've had to rush to the toilet far more times in Japan than in Canada/America due to poorly prepared meat. The last matsuri I went to offered up nearly raw karaage, though thankfully I noticed.

There were also the yukhoe deaths awhile back.

Yeah, 生ハム is a confusing term because it's used to refer to proscuitto and other types of dry-cured ham. Actually, I think I see the proscuitto type most often in Japan, but that is not smoked. It is salted, pressed, and hung to dry in a rather long process.

You do see proper raw pork served ocassionally though (my friend said he just had it at his 忘年会 two weeks ago, actually [edit: I e-mailed him to ask about it and he said it was called 豚肉のレアステーキ]). And you sometimes see pork labeled as 無菌豚 even at a regular grocery store, which is safe to eat raw.

As for rushing to the toilet due to bad meat, I've never really done it in either America or Japan... maybe I just have a strong stomach? I have gotten what may have been food poisoning a few times in America, but never in Japan. That's unfair though, since I lived in Japan for about 4 years, and in America for about 21.

And yeah, there were those yukhoe deaths. Now they have strict regulations on yukhoe and it's not actually 100% raw (they heat the outside a bit, and then cut out the rarer part in the middle). I had it raw before the yukhoe deaths... and it was pretty awful, haha. I won't miss yukhoe.

Something I thought was relevant to the conversation:
Last night I watched the movie "The Adventures of Milo and Otis". I had seen it back when it came out in theaters when I was a little kid. An innocent kid's movie, right?
I was really shocked by the contents of this film. The animals were very clearly put into some dangerous and extremely scary situations. After a quick google search, I saw that this was actually a westernized (and toned down) version of a Japanese film, 子猫物語。
It was rumored that more than 20 kittens were killed during the filming. But even if that's not true, there is still some pretty sick stuff in there.

Created in Japan, but also accepted and profited from in the west.